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No More Lockout Blues! - 2012 Lockout Part 2 [UPD: AGREEMENT REACHED!]

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Old
11-18-2012, 11:46 AM
  #201
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Meetings resuming on Monday. Which I'll take as a positive.

He can deny it all he wants in the media, but it sure sounds like Philly's Snider is getting a bit frustrated with this stalemate as well. Maybe that will generate some movement.
I'm with you. Staying optimistic. Both sides seem to be growing impatient so hopefully we will start seeing some movement.

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11-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #202
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I'm not sure ironic is the right word for the situation in Phoenix but does that seem kind of messed up to anyone else? Franchise hanging by a thread, league completely discombobulated at the moment and no one cares? Is it wrong to suggest that maybe it's fairly telling about the importance of hockey in certain markets?

As for Bettman's move, as frustrating as the two week layoff from negotiating is, has the NHLPA actually really shown up to negotiate or have they just been mostly holding their breath until they turn blue? Are they turning blue now?

Honestly still don't get their stance. I understand they don't want to give up $$, no one does. But did they really expect to win? Why not sit back and figure out meaningful ways to offset that salary rollback in terms of other perks or ways that would see increases over time to offset the initial pain? It worked for the last lockout, why not this one? Hey, I'm right there with them...I hate Bettman too but calling him every name in the book for 16 years didn't help bring the Jets back either. It took someone a little wiser, a lot calmer and who understood how to work the system.
How about going 50/50 in the NHL in a PARTNERSHIP and work with the league to increase revenue so EVERYONE can make money. It just seems idiotic to me to ask for a larger than half piece of the pie and then erode that pie by not agreeing to a fair deal.

How can players not see that what is happening is not sustainable for 30 teams? That they will end up losing jobs and money in the long run. It is seriously baffling to me.

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11-19-2012, 04:13 AM
  #203
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Gary Lawless of the Winnipeg Free Press interviews Gary Bettman: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...179909441.html

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11-19-2012, 06:04 AM
  #204
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FP: When are you going to cancel the season?

GB: That's not something we're focused on. We very much want to make a deal. On Oct. 16th we made an offer to save an 82-game season which the union summarily rejected. But we're going to stay at this because nobody wants to be in that position. So we're not focusing on that sort of deadline right now.

FP: If you have to cancel the season, what would you do the system?

GB: Any answer I give you to that question would be terribly misportrayed and misconstrued.
God I just hate the talks about the lockout. Everyone's saying the same anyway.

"Everyones trying to do the best for the game"

Just shut the ******* up and make a deal both sides can at least live with. Play hockey and start earning money again you idiots. The money-clock is ticking.

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11-19-2012, 06:27 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by DespoticNewt View Post
Gary Lawless of the Winnipeg Free Press interviews Gary Bettman: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...179909441.html
The thing that scares me is the part of the interview where they talk about the Jets. How if True North spent to the cap the Jets would have lost money. With all the $ that was thrown at the Jets last year, that has to be close to their revenue peak (barring a long playoff run ). It really underscores the necessity of an owner friendly CBA. I don't know about everyone else, but I would sure like a world where the Jets can spend to the cap every season and still make a profit.

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11-19-2012, 12:05 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
The thing that scares me is the part of the interview where they talk about the Jets. How if True North spent to the cap the Jets would have lost money. With all the $ that was thrown at the Jets last year, that has to be close to their revenue peak (barring a long playoff run ). It really underscores the necessity of an owner friendly CBA. I don't know about everyone else, but I would sure like a world where the Jets can spend to the cap every season and still make a profit.
I think that's a bit misleading personally. The team itself may or may not be close to breaking even, but we have to remember that true north owns the arena, so all the revenue that comes in from concerts and what not is also going straight to the organization.

I'm not to terribly concerned about that.

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11-19-2012, 12:31 PM
  #207
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I think that's a bit misleading personally. The team itself may or may not be close to breaking even, but we have to remember that true north owns the arena, so all the revenue that comes in from concerts and what not is also going straight to the organization.

I'm not to terribly concerned about that.
Yup. I'm sure they made a killing on the Justin Bieber shows. Also, the same can be said of many teams in the NHL, where owners own the arena they play in. The Bruins play in a building they own. Same can be said of the Capitals, Maple Leafs, Canucks, and Flyers. I'm sure there are others who are on the list too.

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11-19-2012, 12:42 PM
  #208
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I think that's a bit misleading personally. The team itself may or may not be close to breaking even, but we have to remember that true north owns the arena, so all the revenue that comes in from concerts and what not is also going straight to the organization.

I'm not to terribly concerned about that.
That's true, but why would the org as a whole want to lose money on the hockey operations side? The concert money would be there if they didn't have the Jets, so I wouldn't think that TNSE decided to get into the NHL game to lose money overall.

Granted that concepts like the overall franchise value increasing, and the NHL team being a bigger piece of a downtown development play a part for sure, and help take the sting out of short term losses on the hockey ops side.

But I don't think that TNSE is content with losses on the hockey ops side being propped up by profits on the concert side. They would be losing more money being in the NHL that way (concepts above withstanding).

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11-19-2012, 06:27 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
I think that's a bit misleading personally. The team itself may or may not be close to breaking even, but we have to remember that true north owns the arena, so all the revenue that comes in from concerts and what not is also going straight to the organization.

I'm not to terribly concerned about that.
I think you slightly missed what I was trying to say. I'm not worried about Thomson and Chipman per say. I'm sure they make money on the MTS centre, which is in itself just a small % of their overall business revenue especially for Thomson. My worry is as a Jets fan. Both made it clear that they bought the Jets as a business venture they were expecting to make a profit on not as a charity for the city. So if a CBA only allows the team itself to be profitable as a lower to mid cap team, then we may be at a competitive disadvantage against teams that can spend to the cap and still be profitable. Not that a mid cap team can't win it all, it's just that you always have to punch above your weight.

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11-19-2012, 08:23 PM
  #210
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I have a very hard time believing that the pair of them didn't make money, considering that alot of the overhead on running a business can be written off at tax time. If you know what your doing, you can make it so that you'd paying very little in tax and are actually getting the bulk of written off. On top of that, they are receiving extra tax breaks from the provincial government just for having the team in MB. Lets not kid ourselves here, the system favours the rich. I don't claim to be an expert in how negotiating the tax world works, but I do know that most of their expenses can be written off by the federal government.

The MTS centre sits what? Like 15,000 people? Lets call it 13,5 just to be safe. I'm not sure what the tickets are on a high end, but it's prolly at least a hundred bucks. Probably more. But let's call it a hundred bucks a ticket. That's 1.3m a game, just on the door. Multiply that by 41...that's 53m a season. Pretty much the payroll. And that's being on the safe side.

That's not mentioning merchandise, concessions, parking...yadda yadda yadda.

They made a good chunk of change, more then we will ever see that's for sure. Did they make out like bandits? Probably not. But they did well enough to not receive revenue sharing.

Had they spent the extra 20m on players, they might be breaking even.

And if anything, the NHL team has made Winnipeg as a concert location more desirable. More concerts, more events...more money. That's not to mention all the concession from that.

Let me be clear, I am totally in favor of a lower cap. It will do nothing but help this team. Where the jets are comfortably spending is going to be spending to the cap and I'm ok with that. However, I highly doubt you'll ever see this team anywhere else again(knock on wood). If our fans continue to be hockey crazy and sell out games and continue to support this team like a pack of rabid wolves...we'll be fine. This time around there's a salary cap. The dollar is stronger, or rather the American dollar is weaker. And the ownership group actually knows what their doing and is being vey smart about this. They own the arena, they're not making contracts that are going to break the bank. Even if either one of them decides to back out, someone else will buy in because this team makes money.

It also takes alot to move a team, and all other options will be pursued first. Look at Phoenix. It's been floundering for years!


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11-19-2012, 08:46 PM
  #211
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One thing I don't get, is that they're arguing over who eats the cost of the lockout? Why can't you just accept that that money is gone, never to be seen again, because they were both being stupid? Or can that not be done? Pro rate the salaries or w/e.

Or split 50/50. It's on both sides that this **** happened in the 1st place.

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11-19-2012, 09:00 PM
  #212
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I would love to see an itemized list of NHL team expenses. I can't remember where I read it, but I saw one estimate where travel costs (flights, hotels, per diems etc.) is north of $300,000 per player per year.

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11-19-2012, 09:38 PM
  #213
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This whole thing pisses me off so much. But what's really sad about this is the careers this may end. Teemu, Alffie, etc may never see the ice on an NHL rink again and for those that don't play again its a sad way to go. At least Im passing the time watching AAA Midget and MJHL games, a couple good leagues to watch to make the winter go by faster.

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11-19-2012, 09:41 PM
  #214
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I am going to respectfully disagree with the a Lawless article stating that TNSE did not make money last year (or barely made money). my educated guess is that the revenue side exceeded their expectations (projections) in almost every major catagory. Then they were in the bottom third of the teams as far as payroll expenses which is the major cost of running a franchise.

So revenues exceeded projections and payroll was low. that means we would have to believe that all the hard work Mark did breaking down the financials of other teams and building up his projections to build a business plan around a satisfactory return on investment were flawed? sorry I don't buy it. My guess is that unless there were some really bizzare one time costs, last year went better than expected for the Jets financially which means they were solidly in the black. The next piece of evidence I would use to build my case is that TNSE were active and aggressive this off season pursuing free agents which means Chevy had budget to work with and I doubt that would happen if they were not making money.

I would guess if there are any concerns with the people at TNSE it's around "enduring profitability" as in things were good this last season but we are cautious because we understand this is still the hooneymoon and things can change over the years. That is why it is important the CBA negociations are mid market friendly for us as Jets fans.

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11-19-2012, 11:39 PM
  #215
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I am going to respectfully disagree with the a Lawless article stating that TNSE did not make money last year (or barely made money). my educated guess is that the revenue side exceeded their expectations (projections) in almost every major catagory. Then they were in the bottom third of the teams as far as payroll expenses which is the major cost of running a franchise.

So revenues exceeded projections and payroll was low. that means we would have to believe that all the hard work Mark did breaking down the financials of other teams and building up his projections to build a business plan around a satisfactory return on investment were flawed? sorry I don't buy it. My guess is that unless there were some really bizzare one time costs, last year went better than expected for the Jets financially which means they were solidly in the black. The next piece of evidence I would use to build my case is that TNSE were active and aggressive this off season pursuing free agents which means Chevy had budget to work with and I doubt that would happen if they were not making money.

I would guess if there are any concerns with the people at TNSE it's around "enduring profitability" as in things were good this last season but we are cautious because we understand this is still the hooneymoon and things can change over the years. That is why it is important the CBA negociations are mid market friendly for us as Jets fans.
Pretty much agree with everything you said. It should also be noted that while the Jets may have saw a bit of a boost in revenue in year 1, they also would have had a number of start up and change over costs that wont persisit moving forward.

For example:

-The Jets had to change all the logos and signs in the MTS center from Moose to Jets.

-Upgrade the Locker rooms to NHL standards.

-Partition the Suites

-New Flooring

-Increased concessions

-Legal costs with branding and trademarking the Jets name and Logo

-Upgrade the glass and boards to NHL caliber

-Massive recruitment program to double their business support staff


I'm sure there are other costs that I'm missing, but the point is that these costs either wont occur moving forward or they will be greatly reduced.

Any team source merchandise sale decrease will be more than offset by the elimination/substantial decrease of the those one time cost as well as the 3% ticket price increase. In short there shouldnt be any quetsions about TNSE's short/medium term profitability.

Not to say that True North Will be Happy with the Status Quoe moving forward in these negotiations. While I'm fairlly sure that they are part of the moderates they probably want a 50:50 split which would put them further in the black moving forward. I'm also sure that they are one of the chief proponents of getting rid of the long term back loading deals which would allow them to compete more easily in free agency. I just can't see are ownership and management ever signing contracts like the Parise and Sueter deals. I'm also sure that they are a proponent of increased revenue sharing, even though they might pay into it over the next couple of years.

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11-20-2012, 03:18 AM
  #216
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I absolutely agree with both of you(ps and surixion) and I'm not going to lie to you, I have a feeling that there is a certain amount of number fudging that goes on, especially when they releases the financials. I'm not what you would call a conspiracy theorist or anything, but I woul think that we would be amiss to think that stuff like this didn't happen. To say that True North wouldn't have made any money spending to the cap is a little ridiculous. Even if they did spend to the cap, by getting some of the good players and **** and pushing free agency and making big trades and whatever....unless they were retards and have huge contracts to ****** players, it's pretty reasonable to expect that there would have been a playoff run. Maybe not deep, but considering we would have played Boston or NY, I could see it goin to 7 games and that's 3 games that are straight profit. Very little overhead.

Also...

Alot of the travel expenses(the 300k/yr mentioned earlier) will qualify as a business expense, so it can and probably will be written off.

That's probably why it hasn't come up in negotiations really, because the owners milk every penny they can get out of the government, and so they should. Pro sports, like war and drugs, are good for the economy.

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11-20-2012, 07:42 AM
  #217
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Man, some of the players sure are out to lunch in this whole thing. The recent comments over the past few days with players calling Bettman an "idiot" and referring to them as "cancers" and so forth really sound bad to me. I think many of the players have a totally misguided understanding of the general publics perspectives on this. Its like they think all the fans are behind them (the players) and hoping for them to "beat" the hated owners. Of course there are some fans like that, but I think the vast majority recognise that there really aren't good guys and bad guys here and when the players spout off like that they sound like petulant little brats that are mad becuase they aren't getting their way...

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11-20-2012, 07:45 AM
  #218
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Man, some of the players sure are out to lunch in this whole thing. The recent comments over the past few days with players calling Bettman an "idiot" and referring to them as "cancers" and so forth really sound bad to me. I think many of the players have a totally misguided understanding of the general publics perspectives on this. Its like they think all the fans are behind them (the players) and hoping for them to "beat" the hated owners. Of course there are some fans like that, but I think the vast majority recognise that there really aren't good guys and bad guys here and when the players spout off like that they sound like petulant little brats that are mad becuase they aren't getting their way...
As long as someone doesn't pull of Chelios on Twitter, we're ok.

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11-20-2012, 08:51 AM
  #219
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Man, some of the players sure are out to lunch in this whole thing. The recent comments over the past few days with players calling Bettman an "idiot" and referring to them as "cancers" and so forth really sound bad to me. I think many of the players have a totally misguided understanding of the general publics perspectives on this. Its like they think all the fans are behind them (the players) and hoping for them to "beat" the hated owners. Of course there are some fans like that, but I think the vast majority recognise that there really aren't good guys and bad guys here and when the players spout off like that they sound like petulant little brats that are mad becuase they aren't getting their way...
Ayup.

There certainly are anti-Bettman (I still don't really like the weasel and don't blame the players for not trusting him) and anti-owner groups of individuals out there. One only needs to read the comments on any yahoo hockey article to see that. The impression I get though is that those people are ticked there's no hockey and are blaming the owners without examining the situation fully. So anti-Bettman overrides logic or knowledge and a part of me certainly isn't opposed to that.

But reading all the information available I can't help but think the NHLPA wanted this lockout to happen. I can't fathom the reason why. Yes, I know that they wanted to 'reset the bar' for negotiations but this seems an awfully damn stupid way to do it.

I'm still trying to figure out what their end game actually is. I really, genuinely am. I say that because I'll be surprised if they bring an actual, legitimate proposal to the league on Wednesday. Something that actually works in alignment with the league's desires. I'm not saying the players should cave on everything, quite the contrary. But it doesn't strike me that they are being intelligent in approaching this. Fehr and the PA are still playing silly games but the end game is beyond me at the moment.

As for the players, Fehr really should have put a gag order on them. The interwebs in all its glorious forms hasn't been helpful to them. Where guys are just making comments out of frustration without specifics, no problem. I don't agree with everything Ladd has said but I understand where he's coming from - nobody likes to be pushed out of work and be told they have to bear the weight of responsibility. But at least guys like Ladd (or Schneider or Miller) have kept themselves in check. Guys like Versteeg? Guys like White? Guys like Biz or Barch? Shut the hell up, please. You're only damaging yourself and the PA.

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11-20-2012, 09:11 AM
  #220
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Man, some of the players sure are out to lunch in this whole thing. The recent comments over the past few days with players calling Bettman an "idiot" and referring to them as "cancers" and so forth really sound bad to me. I think many of the players have a totally misguided understanding of the general publics perspectives on this. Its like they think all the fans are behind them (the players) and hoping for them to "beat" the hated owners. Of course there are some fans like that, but I think the vast majority recognise that there really aren't good guys and bad guys here and when the players spout off like that they sound like petulant little brats that are mad becuase they aren't getting their way...
I agree. The fact is that most of those who did care are slowly losing interest. I hadn't checked the BoH boards in a few days and I cannot even find an active general discussion thread on all of this.
Y'know, it's amazing that the PA has not yet submitted a single comprehensive proposal yet to the NHL. I support Bettman for suggesting they break for a couple of weeks. They need to hear the message loud and clear: if you don't want the season to crash and burn, you'd better take a long hard look INSIDE the PA. There is no game to be won here, just losses to cut.
When I hear crap like what Versteeg spewed, it takes away the last vestige of concern I have for his ilk.
>$400 million lost in salaries thus far, and if they care so little about the millions they are losing as to trash the hand that feeds them, I couldn't care less either.

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11-20-2012, 11:24 AM
  #221
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I agree. The fact is that most of those who did care are slowly losing interest. I hadn't checked the BoH boards in a few days and I cannot even find an active general discussion thread on all of this.
Y'know, it's amazing that the PA has not yet submitted a single comprehensive proposal yet to the NHL. I support Bettman for suggesting they break for a couple of weeks. They need to hear the message loud and clear: if you don't want the season to crash and burn, you'd better take a long hard look INSIDE the PA. There is no game to be won here, just losses to cut.
When I hear crap like what Versteeg spewed, it takes away the last vestige of concern I have for his ilk.
>$400 million lost in salaries thus far, and if they care so little about the millions they are losing as to trash the hand that feeds them, I couldn't care less either.
Yeah, they closed the latest lockout megathread when it hit 1000 posts and didn't start a new one. It was just going around in circles between the pro-NHLPA guys on one side and the rational thinking pro-owners folks on the other...

Anyway, I don't think it's apathy - just that everyone's spinning their wheels, re-arguing the same points ad infinitum. That last thread was number 28 in the series (so 28,000+ posts on the topic over the course of the lockout) and was open for 31 hours from post 1 to post 1021...that's more than 1 post every 2 minutes.

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11-20-2012, 11:27 AM
  #222
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I agree. The fact is that most of those who did care are slowly losing interest. I hadn't checked the BoH boards in a few days and I cannot even find an active general discussion thread on all of this.
Y'know, it's amazing that the PA has not yet submitted a single comprehensive proposal yet to the NHL. I support Bettman for suggesting they break for a couple of weeks. They need to hear the message loud and clear: if you don't want the season to crash and burn, you'd better take a long hard look INSIDE the PA. There is no game to be won here, just losses to cut.
When I hear crap like what Versteeg spewed, it takes away the last vestige of concern I have for his ilk.
>$400 million lost in salaries thus far, and if they care so little about the millions they are losing as to trash the hand that feeds them, I couldn't care less either.
Yea I really like allot of the players on the Jets but they just don't get "it" IMHO. When they play to half full rinks with low ticket prices in far roo many markets do their paychecks not seem to be too good to be true? The owner sponsored model is unsustainable long term and the players are just clinging on to false hope while they burn paycheck after paycheck and on top of it they might be doing real damage to the HRR streams if the fans get pi55ed this time. they have a right to protest and fight for what they think is right but sooner or later common sense should prevail.

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11-20-2012, 11:28 AM
  #223
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I agree. The fact is that most of those who did care are slowly losing interest. I hadn't checked the BoH boards in a few days and I cannot even find an active general discussion thread on all of this.
The megathread was moved to the NHL forum. The BoH board is now being reserved for discussion of the core business issues, with no megathread there. General discussion is now being moved to the NHL Talk forum.

It's my honest opinion that the backlash from this lockout will not be as bad as people are predicting. Honestly most of my friends (many of whom are in my ST group or have their own ST tickets) just check in once and while with me to see how the lockout is going, but are not invested in it like many of us on here. so they are not nearly as upset about this, yet they will be back 100% whenever games are played again...I think that that is the majority opinion, whereas the few "diehards" who are so frusterated that they will not be back are the vast minority. I remember many many similiar claims of the "end" of the NHL during the last lockout, yet the game came back stronger than ever. I have no worries that this lockout will end relatively soon and the league will be fine, IMO.


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11-20-2012, 12:30 PM
  #224
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Absolutely, the fans will come back.

In all the comments I hear coming from the players, the one possibility that never gets any consideration is that the last offer they got from the owners actually was honestly the owners "make it or break it" point - the deal that the owners need in order to make it worthwhile to run a hockey league. What if the owners are not blowing smoke and actually have decided the league can't function for much longer unless an agreement fundamentally like what has been offered is accepted? If from the owners percpective, most teams are better off not playing rather than play under anything less than the last offer, then the only option the PA has is to give up and cut their losses. Its not impossible that there just isn't any "wiggle room" here to work with...

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11-20-2012, 12:44 PM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
Absolutely, the fans will come back.

In all the comments I hear coming from the players, the one possibility that never gets any consideration is that the last offer they got from the owners actually was honestly the owners "make it or break it" point - the deal that the owners need in order to make it worthwhile to run a hockey league. What if the owners are not blowing smoke and actually have decided the league can't function for much longer unless an agreement fundamentally like what has been offered is accepted? If from the owners percpective, most teams are better off not playing rather than play under anything less than the last offer, then the only option the PA has is to give up and cut their losses. Its not impossible that there just isn't any "wiggle room" here to work with...
Fehr, the PA and Captain Bob completely disagree with you. They don't think it's the best offer yet.

Tomorrow's offer will give an indication of where the PA stands. If it's a nonstarter for the league, clearly the PA doesn't think the league is in trouble or has reached their best offer yet. They may be right about the best offer part at least, but only time will answer that question. It's a gamble and they may lose rather substantially.

Like Holden's group I think most fans, especially in Winnipeg where we're hypersensitive to league economics, are just moving on with their lives and will return to hockey when it returns to them.

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