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Old
11-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #251
JackSlater
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Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
What makes you rank those players above Howe? Specifically, Bossy, Savard, Coffey and Lafleur. Also, did you forget Lemieux? Because I can't think of any reason to leave him off of this list.
If you only have room for one superstar centre from Quebec, you pretty much have to go with Denis Savard.

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11-21-2012, 04:22 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
What makes you rank those players above Howe? Specifically, Bossy, Savard, Coffey and Lafleur. Also, did you forget Lemieux? Because I can't think of any reason to leave him off of this list.
i mis-read the title of the thread. i thought this was more along the lines of rank your "favorite" players of all time. obviously i would have mario in the top 10.

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11-22-2012, 01:31 AM
  #253
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Not saying he has to be in your top 10 but just in general Joe Malone is another guy that doesn't get enough love.

I know it was a different game waaay waaay waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, but 44 goals in 20 games is a level of dominance that hadn't been seen before, hasn't been seen since, and will never be seen again.

I'm curious to see what he could have done in a more modern setting. We know for damn sure he hands just looking at the numbers, and hands are hands no matter when you're playing. That translates.

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11-22-2012, 01:34 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Not saying he has to be in your top 10 but just in general Joe Malone is another guy that doesn't get enough love.

I know it was a different game waaay waaay waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, but 44 goals in 20 games is a level of dominance that hadn't been seen before, hasn't been seen since, and will never be seen again.

I'm curious to see what he could have done in a more modern setting. We know for damn sure he hands just looking at the numbers, and hands are hands no matter when you're playing. That translates.
You're really overselling Malone here. Despite the eye-popping numbers, he's clearly behind Newsy Lalonde and Cyclone Taylor for the pre/early NHL crowd. I'd take Frank Nighbor as well but it's a little harder to see his value in the stats.

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11-22-2012, 01:36 AM
  #255
TheDevilMadeMe
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Malone really gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that his career season was the first year after the NHA officially became the NHL. So his great season counts towards official NHL stats, but previous great seasons don't.

One thing to remember when it comes to goal scoring stats of that era is that star players played the full 60 minutes.

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11-22-2012, 01:42 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Malone really gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that his career season was the first year after the NHA officially became the NHL. So his great season counts towards official NHL stats, but previous great seasons don't.

One thing to remember when it comes to goal scoring stats of that era is that star players played the full 60 minutes.
By previous great seasons you mean the two other times he scored 40 goals in 20 or less games? None of his peers were scoring at that pace in any year in any league. Not Lalonde and not Taylor.

As far as playing 60 minutes, if you actually haul ass for 60 minutes you deserve all the benefits for doing so. I think that's an accomplishment in itself. It was a slower game back then but being on the ice for 60 minutes is still torturous.

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11-22-2012, 01:46 AM
  #257
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Although Nighbor did have a 40 goal season of his own in the NHA, but the numbers kinda drop after that.

Of course the numbers are all we have because none of our grandparents saw them play, let alone us. Malone has the best numbers of all of them.

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11-22-2012, 01:46 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Malone really gets a lot of mileage out of the fact that his career season was the first year after the NHA officially became the NHL. So his great season counts towards official NHL stats, but previous great seasons don't.

One thing to remember when it comes to goal scoring stats of that era is that star players played the full 60 minutes.
It's worth repeating too that there really shouldn't be a distinction made between the first year of the NHL or the last year of the NHA. Same league, same teams, same set of players, just minus one owner in Toronto who the rest of league was sick of.

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11-22-2012, 01:47 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
You're really overselling Malone here. Despite the eye-popping numbers, he's clearly behind Newsy Lalonde and Cyclone Taylor for the pre/early NHL crowd. I'd take Frank Nighbor as well but it's a little harder to see his value in the stats.
I don't know where this advantage is so clear unless you saw them play and can attest to it yourself. I'm guessing you're not 116 years old??

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11-22-2012, 02:11 AM
  #260
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There have been books written on these guys and many of us have read newspaper articles from the time via google archives. We have far more than just the numbers.

By all accounts, Joe Malone was a dominant goal scorer, but really didn't contribute anything other than scoring goals.

Newsy Lalonde was comparable at scoring goals, but was also one tough SOB and a noted leader.

Cyclone Taylor was the best playmaker of the era by a wide margin.

Frank Nighbor was also an excellent playmaker and was, by all accounts, the best defensive forward to play the game before World War 2.

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11-22-2012, 02:18 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I don't know where this advantage is so clear unless you saw them play and can attest to it yourself. I'm guessing you're not 116 years old??
It's clear when you critically examine their resumes instead of assuming big = better.

Cyclone Taylor

Frank Nighbor

Joe Malone

Newsy Lalonde

Quote:
The top scorers from the pre-merger era

From the Hockey Compendium:

Top 20 Scorers, 1909-1926
GP G A P
1 Newsey Lalonde ('10-26') 296 gp-362 G*-81 A-443 PTS
2 Joe Malone ('09-24') 273 gp-343 G-58 A- 401 PTS
3 Cy Denneny ('15-26') 259 gp-258 G-82 A- 340 PTS
4 Frank Nighbor ('13-26') 287 gp-238 G-96 A- 334 PTS
5 Frank Foyston ('13-26'>) 297 gp-223 G-72 A- 295 PTS
6 Cyclone Taylor ('09-23') 169 gp-189 G-104* A- 293 PTS
7 Mickey MacKay ('15-26') 247 gp-198 G-92 A- 290 PTS

Newsy Lalonde has a 10% lead on Malone, 30% on Denneny. Denneny only added 29 points after 1926. Nighbor added 32, and MacKay added 63 to also remain on the 1940 leader board.

His 362 goals wasn't passed until Richard did it in 54-55.
NHA-only
Quote:
'09
Malone - 8G, 12 GP

'10
Lalonde - 38G, 11 GP
Taylor - 10G, 13 GP

'11
Malone - 9G, 13GP
Lalonde - 19G, 16GP
Taylor - 9G, 12 GP

'12
Malone - 21G, 18GP

'13
Malone - 43G, 20 GP
Nighbor - 25G, 19 GP
Lalonde - 9G, 13 GP

'14
Malone - 24G, 17 GP
Lalonde - 22G, 14 GP

'15
Malone - 16G, 12 GP
Lalonde - 4G, 7 GP

'16
Lalonde - 28G, 24 GP
Malone - 25G, 24 GP
Nighbor - 19G, 23 GP

'17
Malone - 41G, 19 GP
Nighbor - 41 G, 19 GP
Lalonde - 28G, 18 GP
Throw in what Lalonde and Taylor had going in the PCHA (Nighbor to a much lesser extent there), consider how dominant Nighbor was defensively and there you go. Taylor doesn't show well in the NHA numbers as he spent most of his career in the PCHA.


Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 11-22-2012 at 02:34 AM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 02:38 AM
  #262
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My list (until it changes tomorrow)

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Hasek
Harvey
Bobby Hull
Kharlamov
Beliveau
Bourque

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:07 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 View Post
My list (until it changes tomorrow)

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Hasek
Harvey
Bobby Hull
Kharlamov
Beliveau
Bourque
... honestly Fred, youve gotta pull the goalie outta
there. Separate Category & BONUS, another pick.

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11-22-2012, 04:36 AM
  #264
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That's all very interesting data there BBS. You certainly know your stuff and the 38 goals in 11 games by Lalonde certainly caught my eye.

I found some of the quotes very interesting; they all pretty much pointed fingers at each other and said "NO! THAT GUY OVER THERE IS THE BEST NOT ME!"

Now with all due respect, I like my goals, and I like my Phantom Joe

But I've learned alot here, and I will rephrase one thing: I said Joe Malone doesn't get enough attention from fans today. Well NONE of these guys get enough attention from fans today.

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11-22-2012, 08:50 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
But I've learned alot here, and I will rephrase one thing: I said Joe Malone doesn't get enough attention from fans today. Well NONE of these guys get enough attention from fans today.
To be fair, there's guys who played in the 80s that don't get enough attention from some of today's fans.

I do think that 'Phantom' Joe Malone remains one of the coolest nicknames in hockey, though.

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:24 PM
  #266
Fred Taylor
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Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 View Post
My list (until it changes tomorrow)

Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Hasek
Harvey
Bobby Hull
Kharlamov
Beliveau
Bourque
List looks pretty good, except I'm having trouble figuring out what Kharlamov is doing in there ahead of Beliveau and Bourque!

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11-22-2012, 09:57 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Playing for most of his career for the mighty Edmonton Oilers. That cannot be discounted. Stastny for quite a while always ended in the NHL top three scorers in the 80s with Coffey and Gretzky while playing with the average Quebec Nordiques. Put him with the Oilers and it would be a whole other ball game. Not to mention he was in the Czech Republic for a part of his career.
This is true and the way he started in the NHL at 24 with that rookie season, it's quite possible he could have done quite well in the NHL for 4 years prior to that.

I like Peter a lot but he would be hard pressed to get on a top 10 centers of all time list never mind a top 10 of all time list.

He is one guy that will be very interesting to watch in our top 50 centers of all time project when we get to it in the future.

I can see guys having him from 10-40ish, the range will be that great.

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11-22-2012, 10:12 PM
  #268
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1. Wayne Gretzky- I've flirted with Bobby Orr at #1 in the past but I think, ultimately, if you pick anyone else besides 99, you end up arguing why you didn't pick him. That tells you something.

2. Bobby Orr

3. Gordie Howe- The more I educate myself on the subject of Mr. Hockey, the more he goes up in my estimation. The most complete player of all-time who was also a dominant offensive force for 20+ years. Just staggering.

4. Mario Lemieux

5. Maurice Richard- I notice him low on some lists, but he's a solid five in my book. Yeah, yeah, he didn't win an Art Ross but you read any of his teammates' biographies (and they pretty much all wrote one) and who do they say was the guy that always came up big for them in the playoffs? Rocket. And that was on teams loaded with Hall-of-Famers, racking up ridiculous Cup runs.

5. Doug Harvey- The next three get tough for me, and bounce around a bit. But right now, I've got Harvey at sixth. I think his all-around game, longevity, and playoff resume are second-to-none. Jean Beliveau said that every gameplan in Montreal ran through Harvey. And that was on the most dominant dynasty ever.

6. Jean Bealiveau

7. Bobby Hull

8. Eddie Shore

9. Mark Messier

10. Martin Brodeur- Every other great goalie was a flake or inconsistent in some way or another. Honestly, if you could start a team with any goalie who ever played. . . how do you not go with the guy who guarantees you 20 years of 30 wins, 10 shutouts and a handful of Vezinas and Cups? Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk and Plante all had a handful of controversial events during their careers, and never came off as particularily good teammates.

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11-22-2012, 10:19 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I just don't think Stastny did much to distinguish himself from Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk. I think he was probably slightly better than them, but not much. Hawerchuk by the way is 2nd to Gretzky for the 10 year period from 1981-82 to 1990-91, but that period doesn't line up neatly with the 1980s. Hawerchuk is also 3rd behind Gretzky and Lemieux for 1982-83 to 1991-92.



Stastny was a top 3 scorer twice.



Stastny won the Golden Hockey Stick for best player in Czechoslovakia in his final season there. But he wasn't close to winning it in any season prior.
Peter was 8th in scoring for the Czechs in the 76 Canada Cup as a 20 year old.

He also had a 10-3-5-8 line at the WC that year and had his 1st 50 point season in the Czech league with 52, followed by 53,55 and 52 points in his golden stick year.

Someone from that part of the world might have more details on him but there is alot of evidence to suggest that he would have done quite well in the NHL from 76 or 77 to 80 before he came over in 81.

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11-22-2012, 10:22 PM
  #270
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There is no way Esposito, Roy, Potvin, Sawchuk, Messier or Lafleur should be ahead of Jagr.
Well, a good case can be made for any of them.

Espo and Lafleur don't give up anything in terms of offensive dominance, so I don't see how there's 'no way' they could be ahead of Jagr.

Roy and Sawchuk are widely considered the top goalies ever. Their peaks and longevity, while different due to positions, are right there with anything Jagr did.

Potvin and Messier were dominant all-around players who contributed hugely to winning teams, piled up points, and had tremendous longevity. Jagr can't touch their three-zone games.

Personally, I'd have all of them ahead of 68, and Jagr wouldn't get a sniff at my top ten (neither would Bourque or Hasek). Too inconsistent, and quit too easily. Hey, still one of the greatest talents ever but if we're talking top ten all-time, should a guy that three teams let go (in his prime) for next-to-nothing and felt either indifferent (Pittsburgh, New York) or elated (Washington) about it really belong in that conversation? IMO. . . no.

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11-22-2012, 10:22 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
There is no way Esposito, Roy, Potvin, Sawchuk, Messier or Lafleur should be ahead of Jagr.
I can see a strong case for Potvin and perhaps Roy (goalies are so hard, and perhaps unfair, to compare to position players).

Jagr should be in the top 10 I would think but he is also still playing so maybe in time people will get a different perspective on his career.

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11-22-2012, 10:26 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by jack mullet View Post
my top 10

Gretzky
Orr
Hasek
Bossy
Denis Savard
Paul Coffey
Guy Lafleur
Howe
Richard
Sakic-Yzerman
Wow Coffey and Savard but no , Jagr, Richard or Hull (among others)

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11-23-2012, 01:55 AM
  #273
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List looks pretty good, except I'm having trouble figuring out what Kharlamov is doing in there ahead of Beliveau and Bourque!
Its a european thing

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11-23-2012, 01:38 PM
  #274
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1. Gretzky - I don't think that longevity is the most important factor in weighing players against one another, but it is a factor at least. In many of the various "vs." debates, longevity does enter into the discussion. So why shouldn't it for the very top? For Gretzky vs. Orr? Gretzky and Orr are very close, as each had a knack for dominating the game in his own unique way. But sheer longevity wins this for Wayne, imo.

2. Orr - However, Orr is clearly the most dominant defenseman of all-time, and truly revolutionized his position.

3. Lemieux - For pure talent and physical capability, Lemieux can't be touched, imo. He's a larger Gretzky, but with just a touch less offensive vision. He's a solid 3, imo.

4. Howe - Simply the best winger to ever play the game, and an incredibly complete hockey player.

5. Richard - Probably my most controversial pick, and so I'm going to spend extra time explaining this one. If a newcomer to the sport of hockey wanted to know the best NY Ranger of all-time, he'd probably first ask Rangers fans for their opinion, correct? If a newcomer wanted to know the best Blackhawk of all-time, he'd probably start by asking Blackhawks fans, correct? So, if you want to know the best Montreal Canadien of all-time...

It's telling to me that in a star-studded cast that includes Beliveau, Roy, Harvey, Lafleur, etc... there's no question who the most popular Hab ever is. "The Hockey Sweater", and the closing of the Forum, makes this crystal clear. For Habs fans, the most popular Hab of all-time is Maurice Richard. That says something, imo. And given that a lot of the "next tier" guys below the top four are Habs greats...

It also says something that Richard was viewed as "Howe's rival" in a way similar to how Mario was viewed as "Gretzky's rival" (and which, tellingly, no defenseman was viewed relative to Orr).

Finally, I agree with Disgruntled Goat's point on playoff performance.

6. Jean Beliveau - I view him as the 3rd best center of all-time, with a highly impressive career that spans two different dynasty teams both with the same franchise.

7. Bobby Hull - A pure goal-scoring winger almost in a class by himself for that role (and with a longevity edge over Bossy).

8. Patrick Roy - There's no goalie I'd rather go into the playoffs with as my No. 1 than Patrick Roy. Period. And for me, that gives him the edge over Hasek and Brodeur.

9. Mark Messier - 2nd in points all-time, and captained two different teams to the Stanley Cup. While Messier is not the offensive dynamo like some players that didn't make this list are, he's a greater difference-maker than them all, imo. Messier was probably the best player on the 90 Oilers and the 94 Rangers.

10. Dominik Hasek -Peak Hasek is probably the most intimidating goalie you could face. Hasek vs. Brodeur basically comes down to unbelievable peak/very good career vs. excellent peak/excellent career, and Hasek takes that by a nose for me.


Honourable Mentions: Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, Nik Lidstrom, Jaromir Jagr, Mike Bossy, Guy Lafleur, Martin Brodeur


Last edited by Darth Joker: 11-23-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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11-23-2012, 01:45 PM
  #275
Oscar Acosta
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1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Lindros
5. Richard
6. Hasek
7. Howe
8. Roy
9. Brodeur
10. Bure

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