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Old
11-08-2012, 04:54 PM
  #326
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Is the amnesty clause thing likely to happen? this could be a great thing.

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11-08-2012, 05:36 PM
  #327
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A large part of the reason to lose Bourque rather than Gomez is that Bourque's cap hit goes through 2015-2016. Gomez may be getting 7.4 million/year, but his contract is almost done.

Further, I'll point out that arguing that Bourque has had 27 goal seasons is equivalent to arguing that Gomez has had 70 point seasons.

Bourque is not going to improve. Once a player declines due to laziness, he's done for.

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11-08-2012, 05:44 PM
  #328
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Why are you guys even talking about Gomez and Bourque in this thread ?

By the way, looks good for a Dec 1st start to the season with approx 66 games.

Fingers crossed.

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11-08-2012, 05:57 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
A large part of the reason to lose Bourque rather than Gomez is that Bourque's cap hit goes through 2015-2016. Gomez may be getting 7.4 million/year, but his contract is almost done.

Further, I'll point out that arguing that Bourque has had 27 goal seasons is equivalent to arguing that Gomez has had 70 point seasons.

Bourque is not going to improve. Once a player declines due to laziness, he's done for.
So what? Gomez has 2 years left at 7.35 mil, Bourque makes less over 4 years at 3.33 mil(14.7 mil vs 13.34 mil). Plus Bourque can easily bounce back to a 20-25 gaol pace and be worth value in a trade, Gomez even at a 60 point pace is hard to move, which there is no chance in hell playing behind Eller Plekanec and Desharnais.

Right, so once a player has a down year his career is done? Brilliant!

There are hundreds of players that have bounced back from crap years. The whole "he is lazy and doesn't care" is talking out your ass.

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Old
11-08-2012, 05:59 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
A large part of the reason to lose Bourque rather than Gomez is that Bourque's cap hit goes through 2015-2016. Gomez may be getting 7.4 million/year, but his contract is almost done.

Further, I'll point out that arguing that Bourque has had 27 goal seasons is equivalent to arguing that Gomez has had 70 point seasons.

Bourque is not going to improve. Once a player declines due to laziness, he's done for.
Bourque had 18 goals in 76 games last season. He was on pace for a very decent 28 before being traded to the Habs, one of the worse performing teams in the league with arguable the worse coaching staff.

Can we give him a chance at least before claiming he's more of a liability than Gomez, a player who's been declining for years, not just half a season? Bourque is not a player I want to build the team around be he can be a useful secondary scorer and he has exactly the salary a secondary scorer gets, he's not overpaid if he scores 20+ goals and provides physical play, which he certainly will. He's younger than Gomez and can be more useful in a secondary role, since at least he's big and strong and can shoot if someone sets him up.

This kind of complete intolerance to slight negative variations in performance cost us very good players in the past, we (and especially the coaches&managing staff) need to be patient. He's not a first liner by any means but you can't have 3 all stars on each line. And if he's so lazy then he must be ****** talented to have scored so many goals in consecutive seasons. Can't be all luck, and if its because he had better linemates or chemistry in Calgary then we should try and mix our lines since its clear it wasn't working out with Him-Plekanec+Blunden/Geoffrion/Darche/Moen/Randomscrub. Why not even give him some PP time and ask him to park his ass in front of the net? He should be given a chance to succeed simply because we can certainly use another big 25 goal scoring forward, even if he's a bit lazy on the backcheck.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 11-08-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 06:09 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Bourque had 18 goals in 76 games last season. He was on pace for a very decent 28 before being traded to the Habs, one of the worse performing teams in the league with arguable the worse coaching staff.

Can we give him a chance at least before claiming he's more of a liability than Gomez, a player who's been declining for years, not just half a season? Bourque is not a player I want to build the team around be he can be a useful secondary scorer and he has exactly the salary a secondary scorer gets, he's not overpaid if he scores 20+ goals and provides physical play, which he certainly will. He's younger than Gomez and can be more useful in a secondary role, since at least he's big and strong and can shoot if someone sets him up.

This kind of complete intolerance to slight negative variations in performance cost us very good players in the past, we (and especially the coaches&managing staff) need to be patient. He's not a first liner by any means but you can't have 3 all stars on each line.
Well, not with that attitude, at least...

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Old
11-08-2012, 06:14 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Bourque had 18 goals in 76 games last season. He was on pace for a very decent 28 before being traded to the Habs, one of the worse performing teams in the league with arguable the worse coaching staff.

Can we give him a chance at least before claiming he's more of a liability than Gomez, a player who's been declining for years, not just half a season? Bourque is not a player I want to build the team around be he can be a useful secondary scorer and he has exactly the salary a secondary scorer gets, he's not overpaid if he scores 20+ goals and provides physical play, which he certainly will. He's younger than Gomez and can be more useful in a secondary role, since at least he's big and strong and can shoot if someone sets him up.

This kind of complete intolerance to slight negative variations in performance cost us very good players in the past, we (and especially the coaches&managing staff) need to be patient. He's not a first liner by any means but you can't have 3 all stars on each line.
I remember people giving Gomez a chance after his 58 and 38 point seasons.

We can give Bourque a chance, but if we screw up, it's going to be four long years. If we keep Gomez, his contract is almost done, so it barely matters.

What I saw of Bourque last year was the way he would fan on Eller's beautiful passes. It happened in so many games in the second half. Eller would make a beautiful pass, and Bourque would fan. In addition, Bourque is weak defensively.

I'm not intolerant to players having bad years. For example, I wasn't too concerned with Plekanec's 39 point season in 2008-09. He had a history as a hard worker, and so I expected him to bounce back. On the other hand, I didn't expect Gomez to decline further after his 38 point season. In hindsight I should have given more cred to the thoughtful people who saw the writing on the wall.

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Old
11-08-2012, 06:18 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The 50-50 split they want is something that is absolutely normal. The fact the players got away with getting more revenues than their employers is pretty silly. Doesn't make much sense.
It's already been explained to you that compensation running higher than 50% in high-talent industries is quite common ...


Last edited by DAChampion: 11-08-2012 at 06:26 PM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 06:33 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I remember people giving Gomez a chance after his 58 and 38 point seasons.

We can give Bourque a chance, but if we screw up, it's going to be four long years. If we keep Gomez, his contract is almost done, so it barely matters.
But will it, really? Bourque's salary is far from crippling and it won't be too hard to unload him, not nearly as hard as Gomez. As for fanning on Eller passes, do you have a better player to send on the third line? What incredible left wing prospect does Bourque steal a roster spot from? And Gomez, well you said it, giving him chances after 58 and 38 point seasons - Bourque just had one bad season, one, especially the latter half. Its not even close to being comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Tricolore
Well, not with that attitude, at least...
Proudly said, but it simply doesn't work like that. Even cup winners sometimes (in fact, often) have underperforming, average or unspectacular guys on their rosters playing top9 roles.

Once we have prospects that can take over Bourque's role we'll be able to move him anyways or use him in lesser role so he becomes a depth player. I know its stylish to throw away all players with no long term future with the team but thats not how you'll develop the team's attitude and reputation. Theres also the chance that he might rebound or even do well and be a useful player for us. There is very, very little risk in keeping Bourque and interesting possible reward - he can be a useful player again and help us or he can be traded (for value if he becomes a useful player again or for a small return (late picks) if he doesn't). Thats much better than buying him out, basically burning money and losing him for nothing.

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Old
11-08-2012, 06:46 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
But will it, really? Bourque's salary is far from crippling and it won't be too hard to unload him, not nearly as hard as Gomez. As for fanning on Eller passes, do you have a better player to send on the third line? What incredible left wing prospect does Bourque steal a roster spot from? And Gomez, well you said it, giving him chances after 58 and 38 point seasons - Bourque just had one bad season, one, especially the latter half. Its not even close to being comparable.
You're right that I don't know if he's actually being lazy or whatever. We can't know as fans.

However, management can know. They can know if his waist size has been getting bigger, if he doesn't work as hard at practice, if he never shows up first and never leaves last, etc. You say that I don't know, and that's true, but it's a respectable possibility, and if it's truth, management knows.

Don't be surprised if a buyout option is exercised on Bourque.

You ask about Eller. Ak46 was a better winger for Eller, but we picked up a 2nd rounder and Holland, so I'm happy. After all the injuries, I don't think we had better options, though I certainly expect we will by 2015-2016. At the start of next season I expect to see Moen-Eller-Galchenyuk as a line, or something similar. Leblanc might also be ready for next year. Moving forward, Kristo, Bournival, Gallagher, Holland should be able to transition to the 3rd line.

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Old
11-08-2012, 06:57 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You're right that I don't know if he's actually being lazy or whatever. We can't know as fans.

However, management can know. They can know if his waist size has been getting bigger, if he doesn't work as hard at practice, if he never shows up first and never leaves last, etc. You say that I don't know, and that's true, but it's a respectable possibility, and if it's truth, management knows.

Don't be surprised if a buyout option is exercised on Bourque.

You ask about Eller. Ak46 was a better winger for Eller, but we picked up a 2nd rounder and Holland, so I'm happy. After all the injuries, I don't think we had better options, though I certainly expect we will by 2015-2016. At the start of next season I expect to see Moen-Eller-Galchenyuk as a line, or something similar. Leblanc might also be ready for next year. Moving forward, Kristo, Bournival, Gallagher, Holland should be able to transition to the 3rd line.
I agree that if he's genuinely lazy and has a terrible attitude then he should be let go. Still, its not a given that he's all that, his bad showing last season could be due to a number of factors.

I think he's missed his entrance and it cost him dearly in terms of fan opinions. Had he scored a few goals after the trade or, in fact, if the team had won a couple it would have been better. I think losing Cammalleri (a fan favorite) in difficult circumstances for that big dude who can't score was a bit of a shocker for most people. Most expected Bourque to provide secondary scoring but he had trouble fitting in our game plan and the team kept losing more and more games.

Anyways I just think new coaching staff, new year, new management means a couple underperforming players such as Kaberle or Bourque get a clean slate. Maybe Bourque is going to love Therrien's system, maybe some players who were successful last year won't, its difficult to say. Gomez should still get bought out or loaned permanently to the Alaska Ace tho

EDIT : I think one major reason why we disagree about this subject and others DAChampion is because we approach the success of this team on a different time scale. You are looking more at success on a long term basis (a plan were we'd be successful in 4-5+ years) while I think we can successfully assemble a competitive team team on shorter notice (in 2-3 years, so we can fully benefit from the primes of Subban-Pacioretty-Price). Because of this Bourque clearly has no use for your plan because we don't need (and in fact must not, if we are to have high picks for the future) be competitive short term and he will presumably decline/be a liability in the last years of his contract). Meanwhile I think Bourque can be an interesting piece in the transition towards a compatitive team. Its all about two different approaches, really. I just don't think the extremely unpredictable nature of hockey makes long term planning that worthwhile.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 11-08-2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 07:52 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
A large part of the reason to lose Bourque rather than Gomez is that Bourque's cap hit goes through 2015-2016. Gomez may be getting 7.4 million/year, but his contract is almost done.

Further, I'll point out that arguing that Bourque has had 27 goal seasons is equivalent to arguing that Gomez has had 70 point seasons.

Bourque is not going to improve. Once a player declines due to laziness, he's done for.
Bourque is paid like a 3rd liner and he outproduces his salary so no there is no reason to buy him out instead of the total waste of air that is gomez.

Keep telling us about the future like you know how Bourque will deal with this change of scenery. He still outplayed gomez, was injured and makes half the wage, what a terrible idea to use up a buyout on a perfectly good 3rd liner who can step into the top 6.

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11-08-2012, 08:13 PM
  #338
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Why are you guys even talking about Gomez and Bourque in this thread ?

By the way, looks good for a Dec 1st start to the season with approx 66 games.

Fingers crossed.
This.

Back on topic. Next off topic posts will be deleted.

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Old
11-08-2012, 08:26 PM
  #339
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This.

Back on topic. Next off topic posts will be deleted.
This may have been blurred in the past few pages.

There's a rumour that the new CBA could include a buyout clause, we're discussing how this could effect the Habs, and who the Habs should buyout if they have a choice. It's lockout-related discussion.

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11-08-2012, 08:29 PM
  #340
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Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
Also told that amnesty buyouts are on table.

Please please please please.
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This.

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I found your trouble maker for you.

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Old
11-08-2012, 09:08 PM
  #341
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No Twitter update from anyone has indicated Fehr was willing to agree to linkage. I don't see how a new CBA can be done if Fehr only cares about winning than negotiating.

How can the players play less games than last year and still demand 1.8 B guaranteed? That's clearly a salary increase that Fehr wants AFAIK.

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11-09-2012, 06:21 AM
  #342
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Bourque is paid like a 3rd liner and he outproduces his salary so no there is no reason to buy him out instead of the total waste of air that is gomez.

Keep telling us about the future like you know how Bourque will deal with this change of scenery. He still outplayed gomez, was injured and makes half the wage, what a terrible idea to use up a buyout on a perfectly good 3rd liner who can step into the top 6.
I am stunned. We agree on something. 100% agree. I need a drink.

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11-09-2012, 06:33 AM
  #343
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There is hope!

There might be a hockey season!

There might be no Gomez this season!

Drinks on me fellaz...cyber drinks that is






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11-09-2012, 09:07 AM
  #344
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It's already been explained to you that compensation running higher than 50% in high-talent industries is quite common ...
The explanation was weak and unsupported beyond anything other than some minor anecdotal evidence, though. Yes, SOME talent based businesses pay more than 50%of the revenue to their employees. There are plenty that don't, though. Look at the Film Industry, where talent gets lots of money but nowhere close to 50% of the revenue generated from a film. Just because SOME businesses give their employees a greater share of the pie doesn't mean all should, talent or otherwise.

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11-09-2012, 11:55 AM
  #345
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So uh, are we there yet?

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:27 PM
  #346
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Always tricky to read but not getting any positive vibes today...

damn it. From now on I stop getting into this and just go on with my life as if there won't be a season. Crushing hopes every single time.

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #347
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Always tricky to read but not getting any positive vibes today...

damn it. From now on I stop getting into this and just go on with my life as if there won't be a season. Crushing hopes every single time.
Following the media circus around the players' mood swings is always a roller coaster. Frankly that's really all LeBrun & Lavoie have right now. Their only contacts are from the players side (agents, etc...) plus whatever Daly is authorized to leak.

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11-09-2012, 12:48 PM
  #348
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Following the media circus around the players' mood swings is always a roller coaster. Frankly that's really all LeBrun & Lavoie have right now. Their only contacts are from the players side (agents, etc...) plus whatever Daly is authorized to leak.
I do know that, but it still takes 2 sides to agree on a deal. I am pretty sure Fehr likes to use players' mood swings too. Is it normal that I hate so much someone I've never met in my life?

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Old
11-09-2012, 02:04 PM
  #349
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I don't even give a **** about the season honestly anymore, I can miss a season of hockey and spend my time doing a myriad of other things. The thing that really bothers me is getting a bad draft pick, no ****ing way should we miss the season AND end up drafting in the 20's. That is a total disaster while Toronto probably gets into the top 10.
Yep, the real shame is that we finished last in the east and we have ****** odds of getting an high while Toronto have high odds of getting a good pick. This would be a nightmare lockout.

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11-09-2012, 05:20 PM
  #350
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It's over. RIP 2012-2013 NHL season.

Tim Panaccio @tpanotchCSN:
Talks have ended in NYC and Bettman will speak. Can tell you from one source, there is alot of anger, frustration around the NHL right now

https://twitter.com/tpanotchcsn/stat...43684015550464

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