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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Why there were no lockouts in the NHL until 1994?

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:15 PM
  #51
sawchuk1971
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Ziegler was not the greatest businessman, but he was good in every other areas. The guy had class and knew how to make himself invisible.
well, he did admit that the NHL was a niche sport and was realistic that america will never fall in love with the NHL...

you don't see bettman admitting this problem....

ziegler pointed to the low TV ratings the NHL got when they wanted an american TV presence during the early to mid 1970s......


Last edited by sawchuk1971: 10-28-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
10-28-2012, 10:18 PM
  #52
billybudd
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
Can anyone explain?
Yeah, the union leader's loyalty was to the owners. Not that I thought much of Goodenow, but being a hardassed fool is much better than being a dishonest mole who conspired against the people he was supposed to represent. Eagleson was scum.

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10-28-2012, 10:19 PM
  #53
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Eagleson was a great commissioner who did what had to be done. If he was still in office, we'd be watching hockey right now.

Mob action was more successful than this lawyer nonsense.

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10-28-2012, 10:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
This, Bettman is the sole reason behind the lockouts.
You mean because he learned from the PA strike, and the MLB strike not to play a season without a CBA?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. The NHL has learned their lesson. The players have no one to blame but themselves.

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:43 PM
  #55
Riptide
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
The players have never come asking for their share since 1994. Bargaining has been completely concessionary on their part since then,. They have not been going on strike to increase their share - it is the owners that first locked them out to force that on them and now are doing that again
So they didn't get any concessions in 04? And they can't strike as the owners will not let them play without a CBA. They learned their lesson.

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10-28-2012, 10:55 PM
  #56
thinkwild
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Can you imagine if they agreed to play without a cba? It would be about March, the players would have about 25% of their money in escrow, and then they would go on strike, demanding to take less money as a percent of revenues going forward, or they will not play the rest of the season losing all their escrow.

What a predicament for the owners! I guess they could allow the players to take that pay cut and then finish the season, but it would probably be a tough call eh? Maybe they could just keep the escrow and nullify any advantage Fehr would get from that?

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10-28-2012, 11:03 PM
  #57
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The strike would still be an embarrassment to the league and the NHLPA would do what they'er doing now, try and force a CBA with no linkage so they're not on the hook.

Bottom line is you don't take that risk, you don't give Fehr that option.

As for Bettman and lockouts, rolling over and letting a union isn't something any company will allow, especially one with as many hardliners as the NHL.

CBA negotiations are the only way the owners can legally and collective control NHL player salaries. They can't do it otherwise without being handed a collusion.

Meanwhile players and agents and free to work together and raise player salaries, which they always do.

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10-28-2012, 11:12 PM
  #58
thinkwild
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Yes the owners were forced to bend the players union over and plow it - adter all they dressed provocatively 2 decades ago in a completely different situation that they were later proven to be right for as the courts slammed the owners for their arrogance and collusive, illegal, dirty tricks to keep salaries down. Which ended the strike and ended all labour problems and owners whining about profits in baseball for 2 decades.

And yet still, Fehr is villified for that?

Salaries are linked to revenues. If players and agents want to work to raise salaries, the owners should be pleased as punch.

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Old
10-29-2012, 03:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Eagleson was the main reason there was peace and he's the main reason why we now have unlimited conflict.

The moment the players learned what he had done, they wanted revenge, they hired Goodnow, a tough business practice type and to counterstrike the NHL hired Bettman so it became a more sanitized more cold business-oriented NHL.

And it's like the players still have that doubt, that hate about the owners.
Pretty much.

What ensued was basically the players have free run of the mill from 1994/95-2004 where they were taking in monstrous amounts of the NHL revenue pie (up to 70%).

Then in the last CBA they accepted 57% in exchange for a linked salary cap.

They've had an amazing 15 years or so of "revenge", sadly though the guys who played in the 70s/80s/etc. are the ones who really built the foundation for the modern NHL and deserved a far better deal.

Today's players IMO are just taking advantage of a weak NHL ownership structure.

This whole thing is the long legacy of Eagleson.

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10-29-2012, 07:33 AM
  #60
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Bettman has ruined hockey, he has no vision for the game. He steals from real fans to prop up an illusionary "healthy league." Eagleson at least loved hockey, and worked to grow the sport internationally. Bettman and his select club of billionaires can't manage their own business because they have no idea how to enhance its product. Hockey was simply better before expansion watered down its product, and defensive systems took their reign on the sport. Now we have hockey in irrelevant places that have to suck the big Canadian nipple of hockey passion to survive, so the only logical solution they can conceive to operate their "healthy" league is to break the union. If I ever met the Count in person, I'd punch him right in the snoz, jersey him, and then rag doll him. He ruined my sport, my passion, the blame lies nowhere else.

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10-29-2012, 11:05 AM
  #61
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I thought Eagleson was a crook who ripped off all the players he represented.

The only logical reason we didn't have lockouts before '94 was there were no "southern markets". What do I win?

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10-29-2012, 11:22 AM
  #62
Kimota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Pretty much.

What ensued was basically the players have free run of the mill from 1994/95-2004 where they were taking in monstrous amounts of the NHL revenue pie (up to 70%).

Then in the last CBA they accepted 57% in exchange for a linked salary cap.

They've had an amazing 15 years or so of "revenge", sadly though the guys who played in the 70s/80s/etc. are the ones who really built the foundation for the modern NHL and deserved a far better deal.

Today's players IMO are just taking advantage of a weak NHL ownership structure.

This whole thing is the long legacy of Eagleson.
And even with the 50/50 split the players would still get too much in my opinion. The NHL is just not an enough strong league, they can't be big boys like the other leagues. I even wonder if the owners and Gary trully get that(well they do and they don't since they keep giving these 10-years deals yet they want to change that).

As an aside, I have no doubt that the players don't give a crap about the players of the 70s and 80s who were really the guys that got screwed.

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10-29-2012, 11:29 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voyageur View Post
Bettman has ruined hockey, he has no vision for the game. He steals from real fans to prop up an illusionary "healthy league." Eagleson at least loved hockey, and worked to grow the sport internationally. Bettman and his select club of billionaires can't manage their own business because they have no idea how to enhance its product. Hockey was simply better before expansion watered down its product, and defensive systems took their reign on the sport. Now we have hockey in irrelevant places that have to suck the big Canadian nipple of hockey passion to survive, so the only logical solution they can conceive to operate their "healthy" league is to break the union. If I ever met the Count in person, I'd punch him right in the snoz, jersey him, and then rag doll him. He ruined my sport, my passion, the blame lies nowhere else.
Not too far off from the truth. Overall Eagleson and Ziegler I feel were better for the beauty of the sport than Bettman and the new structure. Hell it may be cynical but just for the fact that players were making less, they didn't take their sport for granted, they saw it as a previlege and left their heart literaly on the ice every night.

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10-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Its a simple answer. Gary Bettman, he became the commissioner in 1993. It shows that with a competent commissioner that labor disputes were fixed.
No, bettman is not the only cause of the lockouts. Before bettman the NHLPA had a guy named Alan eagleson running thing, he was as crooked as a dogs hind leg and was in the owners back pocket. So simple answer:not all because of Bettman .

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10-29-2012, 12:25 PM
  #65
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Bettman, guy is out of control.

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10-29-2012, 02:30 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Can you imagine if they agreed to play without a cba? It would be about March, the players would have about 25% of their money in escrow, and then they would go on strike, demanding to take less money as a percent of revenues going forward, or they will not play the rest of the season losing all their escrow.

What a predicament for the owners! I guess they could allow the players to take that pay cut and then finish the season, but it would probably be a tough call eh? Maybe they could just keep the escrow and nullify any advantage Fehr would get from that?
Last year's escrow contribution was 8%, not 25%.

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10-29-2012, 02:41 PM
  #67
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I thought Eagleson was a crook who ripped off all the players he represented.
Pretty much. I'm not sure the NHLPA as an organization has ever recovered from discovering that its head was a crook, a fraud, and an owners stooge. They've been very belligerent toward the NHL in every CBA negotiation since his ouster, bound & determined that they won't ever get screwed again. That they end up screwing themselves over & over is a pretty sad joke.

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10-29-2012, 02:43 PM
  #68
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Why would there be a need for a lockout? Money and free agency weren't really a thing yet in the NHL. What could the owners want that would require a lockout?

Once players started getting greater freedom of movement, salaries started to skyrocket, and owners can't really choose to spend less. If they did, it could be collusion, or, it could mean not getting whatever player, and not being as good of a team. Since the NHL has less money to go around than the other 3 sports, that means more fighting for what money there is.

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10-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #69
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Because when Eagelson left and was replaced by Goodenow, he and the NHL (Ziegler) continued to negotiate an expired CBA in good faith. Goodenow decided to use the only real leverage he has and organized a 10 day strike on April 1st holding the playoffs hostage. The tried negotiating, couldn't, mediator stepped in and an agreement was had.

This led to the firing of Ziegler and in came Bettman a year later. There was also an NFL strike in 1987. They learned the hard to way to lock players out before they have a chance to strike.
never knew that

the more u know

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10-30-2012, 05:14 AM
  #70
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Paul Kelly is the man who brought Eagelson down and put him behind bars.
He is the last person on earth who would ever try to emulate him.

When the RCMP did nothing and the power elite in Canada bowed and scraped to the "Eagel',it was Paul Kelly who acted against him.

Because Kelly has a more reasonable and less confrontational approach does not mean he was weak, quite the contrary.

Here is a pretty good article done at the time Kelly was fired in a middle of the night coup by a collection of union hacks and egotistical former players- oh and Buzz Hargrove. It also shows why relations are so rancorous between thNHl and NHLPA:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?id=4435098
.
The outcome of the weekend's events is all in keeping with what appears to be a dangerous return to the Stone Age of labor negotiations that should put fear into all the league's players and its fans.

"Scary days," one prominent player agent told ESPN.com Monday morning.

One former NHLPA executive member said if it's true one of the reasons Kelly was overthrown was the fact he wasn't confrontational enough with NHL executives, it's a bad sign for future negotiations. "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard," he said.

He said it's important for the league and players to have a close relationship given the nature of the current collective bargaining agreement, which sees the league and players share in hockey-related revenues. He warned that without such a relationship, there is a potential to return to the "tragic" days of the past when there were frequent labor interruptions.

If not, good luck. Good luck to the NHLPA, which will get exactly what it deserves, a step back to the Stone Age. Good luck to the fans, who can expect only rancor and, at some point, another, potentially lethal, labor stoppage.



That story should be required reading for anyone before they can post about the CBA

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10-30-2012, 03:23 PM
  #71
thinkwild
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Last year's escrow contribution was 8%, not 25%.
The amount held back each check in escrow is constantly adjusted throughout the year depending on how the actual revenues start comparing to their forecasts. If as the season goes on, revenues appear to be dropping worse than expected, more and more escrow would start being held back.

If it appeared a potential strike was on the horizon which was going to wipe out 20% of reg season revenues and all the playoffs, the adjustment would start jumping through i'd imagine.

Now imagine if MLB owners had this lever at their disposal when Fehr had to sue those many years go to prevent them from arrogantly colluding illegally and had to force the courts to slap the owners down. it likely wouldnt have had the same leverage would it?

The reason Bettman wont allow the players to play without a cba I cant believe has anything to do with the fear that the players would go on strike demanding to take a smaller percentage of revenues going forward and being allowed to continue playing in the playoffs, the reason is because then the owners would lose all their leverage to extort concessions from the PA.

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10-30-2012, 04:23 PM
  #72
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The amount held back each check in escrow is constantly adjusted throughout the year depending on how the actual revenues start comparing to their forecasts. If as the season goes on, revenues appear to be dropping worse than expected, more and more escrow would start being held back.

If it appeared a potential strike was on the horizon which was going to wipe out 20% of reg season revenues and all the playoffs, the adjustment would start jumping through i'd imagine.

Now imagine if MLB owners had this lever at their disposal when Fehr had to sue those many years go to prevent them from arrogantly colluding illegally and had to force the courts to slap the owners down. it likely wouldnt have had the same leverage would it?

The reason Bettman wont allow the players to play without a cba I cant believe has anything to do with the fear that the players would go on strike demanding to take a smaller percentage of revenues going forward and being allowed to continue playing in the playoffs, the reason is because then the owners would lose all their leverage to extort concessions from the PA.
The PA has only ever offered to play under the terms of the existing CBA. I have never seen them say they will sign a 1 year CBA. Legally there is a substantial difference and the NHL may not have access to the normal clauses that prevent players from striking near the playoffs. The players could conceivably "negotiate" on a new CBA until close to playoffs and walk away holding their cash while the owners would have already paid the majority of their expenses without being able to recoup the additional revenues from the playoffs.

No professional league will put themselves in that position ever again following the 94 MLB strike.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:07 PM
  #73
thinkwild
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It's a moot point really because Fehr knows full well Bettman wont let him play.

What im trying to suggest is that meme you and so many are attempting to advance, that the reason is because Bettman fears a repeat of a strike used when there was no escrow hold backs available to mitigate that advantage, is nonsense. Its because its the one and only leverage of the one trick pony.

If they signed a one year cba, they would inevitably have written in a no strike/no lockout clause as in all other cba's. Its if playing without a cba that Fehr might have that leverage available, and then really only if the players didnt have large sums held back in escrow as they would have now but didnt have back then.

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10-30-2012, 06:10 PM
  #74
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Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay
And your O.K.

Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands
And make a stash

New car, caviar, four star daydream
Think I'll buy me a NHL team

Money get back
I'm all right Jack
Keep your hands off my stack

Money, it's a hit
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Do goody good ********

I'm in the hi-fidelity
First class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly
But don't take a slice of my pie

Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil
Today

But if you ask for a rise
It's no surprise that they're
Giving none away
Away
Away
Away
Away...

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