HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, expansion and relocation, and NHL revenues.

Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-28-2012, 02:22 PM
  #226
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
If my hockey team loses 3 million a year, but the fact I own the building which my team plays in makes me 4.7 million. You, as a player, would be okay with making concessions in tune with the fact your owner is losing 3 million dollars a year?
Alright, let's include arena revenue.

How about we include player endorsement and sponsorship money?

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:25 PM
  #227
Fire Sather
new Niclas Wallin?
 
Fire Sather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 21,690
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Alright, let's include arena revenue.

How about we include player endorsement and sponsorship money?
Word. Was about to go there.. maybe the owners should get a percentage of that.

Hell, without the league that the owners fund, players would not have the ability to earn that sponsorship money.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #228
spudnick
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 328
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Word. Was about to go there.. maybe the owners should get a percentage of that.

Hell, without the league that the owners fund, players would not have the ability to earn that sponsorship money.
Without the players there wouldn't be a league

spudnick is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #229
Powdered Toast Man
Is he a ham?
 
Powdered Toast Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,669
vCash: 500
The players are not crying poor. I'm sure if they were, the owners would want to know exactly how much money they were making.

Powdered Toast Man is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:27 PM
  #230
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Word. Was about to go there.. maybe the owners should get a percentage of that.

Hell, without the league that the owners fund, players would not have the ability to earn that sponsorship money.
I don't see why it's not included in HRR anyways. It's revenue that's related to hockey. It deserves to be included in the pot if you want to include non-hockey related revenue in the form of other arena events.

Also come to chat.

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:28 PM
  #231
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
The players are not crying poor. I'm sure if they were, the owners would want to know exactly how much money they were making.
Actually, a lot of the players are crying poor on twitter.

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:29 PM
  #232
Fire Sather
new Niclas Wallin?
 
Fire Sather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 21,690
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
Without the players there wouldn't be a league
Thats nice, without the owners TAKING ALL OF THE RISK by paying said players their high salaries and everything else that goes with owning and operating a team, the players would not have the ability to earn these high wages and would have to go to Europe to play for less.

Fire Sather is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:30 PM
  #233
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
The players are not crying poor. I'm sure if they were, the owners would want to know exactly how much money they were making.
If an owner owns their arena, give me a reason on why they should have to include revenue made from other events. Why should concerts, basketball games, circuses, etc have anything to do with the business of hockey?

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:31 PM
  #234
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
Without the players there wouldn't be a league
Without the owners, there is no arenas, no money to pay the players, no money for the high class hotel rooms, no private chartered planes.

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:36 PM
  #235
Legionnaire11
Registered User
 
Legionnaire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Largo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,751
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
That's hockey related revenue. Not profit. All that non-hockey related revenue could easily bump and owner out of the red and into the black. To my understanding, that's how it works for Melynk at least.
So the owners are presenting the players with some creative bookkeeping as a way of hiding profits. And they're even willing to lose an entire season's worth of these hidden profits just to keep up the charade. I'm not buying it.

Legionnaire11 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:37 PM
  #236
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
The players are not crying poor.
That's a matter of interpretation.

haseoke39 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:39 PM
  #237
Jeffrey93
Registered User
 
Jeffrey93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,432
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
This has nothing to do with their first offer. Of course the first offer is going to get better. But what makes this completely different is that the offer has now gotten worse by MORE than the amount that separated the last two offers. You never recover from that. If the NHL completely buckles tomorrow and takes the PA's last offer, the PA still loses money as opposed to what they'd have made by taking the NHL's last offer (or at least a variation on it, which they never even bothered to negotiate for). The NHL isn't going to offer the PA more than the PA's last offer. And that means, de facto, the PA has already lost. Obviously, and badly, and sadly, because most of the PA doesn't seem to realize it.
Where is it written that the players have a 0% chance of getting anywhere close to their last offer?

It seems to me that in any negotiation you believe that the employee loses automatically.

If I go in thinking I can strike a deal that gets me 20 dollars....I am not going to offer to take 20 dollars, I'm going to ask for 40. I expect the other side to offer nothing or 5. I come back asking for 30. I'll never get the 40 I asked for in my first offer.....so I lost?!?

Jeffrey93 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:40 PM
  #238
SpeedyLazaro
Registered User
 
SpeedyLazaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,756
vCash: 500
why aren't they talking ... at all!!!

it's a ******* disgrace

SpeedyLazaro is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:42 PM
  #239
Krishna
Registered User
 
Krishna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: Canada
Posts: 82,163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyLazaro View Post
why aren't they talking ... at all!!!

it's a ******* disgrace
Fehr is refusing to build off of an NHL proposal and isn't presenting a new one

Krishna is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:42 PM
  #240
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,060
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
If my hockey team loses 3 million a year, but the fact I own the building which my team plays in makes me 4.7 million. You, as a player, would be okay with making concessions in tune with the fact your owner is losing 3 million dollars a year?
Why would the players get a share of non hockey related revenue from a building just because it's where they play?

Do you think they should also be on the hook for upkeep and repairs and refurbishment?

How about owners that do not own their buildings-should the players then pay a share of the rent? Why would the players be awarded some of the revenue but none of the costs?

If the players feel they deserve a piece of the non hockey related revenue, why shouldn't the owners get a chunk of the players endorsement revenue? That makes just about as much sense,actually , it makes more sense.

QUOTE=Powdered Toast Man;55345813]The players are not crying poor. I'm sure if they were, the owners would want to know exactly how much money they were making.[/QUOTE]

What about Krys Barch's cries of pain? His fear that some players may actually have to (gasp) work for a living after they retire? Or, as Eric Duhatschuk called it, Freedom 35.

pepty is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:43 PM
  #241
Jeffrey93
Registered User
 
Jeffrey93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,432
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Without the owners, there is no arenas, no money to pay the players, no money for the high class hotel rooms, no private chartered planes.
You think the Owners pay for that stuff out of their pockets??

Revenues pay for it and local, country & state governments pay for arenas.

Jeffrey93 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:44 PM
  #242
ChillyPalmer
Registered User
 
ChillyPalmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Antarctica
Posts: 731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Fehr is refusing to build off of an NHL proposal and isn't presenting a new one
He is, the owners refuse to meet unless they work off of they're proposal.

ChillyPalmer is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:45 PM
  #243
Powdered Toast Man
Is he a ham?
 
Powdered Toast Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
So the owners are presenting the players with some creative bookkeeping as a way of hiding profits. And they're even willing to lose an entire season's worth of these hidden profits just to keep up the charade. I'm not buying it.
I'm sure they expect to make back any losses back in any possible deal. That's why the rich teams are sitting pretty, they expect something out of it.

I'm not saying the players deserve a percentage of arena revenues, I'm saying if you want to jump off and argue anything but "hockey related revenue" then it should be properly defined and made available. "Profit" has yet to be defined and has yet to be determined how relevant it is.

Powdered Toast Man is online now  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:45 PM
  #244
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Where is it written that the players have a 0% chance of getting anywhere close to their last offer?

It seems to me that in any negotiation you believe that the employee loses automatically.

If I go in thinking I can strike a deal that gets me 20 dollars....I am not going to offer to take 20 dollars, I'm going to ask for 40. I expect the other side to offer nothing or 5. I come back asking for 30. I'll never get the 40 I asked for in my first offer.....so I lost?!?
You're not reading carefully. You can quit doing hypotheticals because we have actual facts here.

Difference between players last offer and owners last offer: $500M.

What the players lose with the cancellation of ~25 games: $500M.

Ergo, if the league comes to them TOMORROW and accepts the PA's last offer, but they still lose 25 games on the season, the players would have been better off just taking the owners offer a week ago.

Of course, that's not going to happen. The owners are likely to go for 49% now, since they pulled 50% off the table. Even if the union gets 50% back on the table, they're not going to get 50% and a full season ever again. And it's axiomatic that the players are NEVER going to get more than their last offer was for, so as soon as the season loses 25 games (which many would argue has either happened already or is a foregone conclusion) it's impossible for the players to get as much money as they could've a week ago. Not unless the players retract their offers and somehow get the league to go higher. Not happening.

Now that there are real dollars coming off the table with the cancellation of games, yes, we can measure how much money the players are losing, and it's more than they stand to gain from getting their way. That's called losing.

haseoke39 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:47 PM
  #245
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
You think the Owners pay for that stuff out of their pockets??

Revenues pay for it and local, country & state governments pay for arenas.
Most of it. But a lot of it is literally paid out of the owner's pockets. That's why we're having a lockout. Welcome aboard!

haseoke39 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:48 PM
  #246
SpeedyLazaro
Registered User
 
SpeedyLazaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,756
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Fehr is refusing to build off of an NHL proposal and isn't presenting a new one

I know.. I was venting

I am in disbelief that they are so willing to throw away all the progress they made over the past few years.


it's like a really bad divorce.. the two pig headed stubborn adults fight to the death and don't even realize that they are hurting the fans (kids) in the whole process.

have fun playing to empty sheds.

SpeedyLazaro is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #247
mzappa
Jets fans in space
 
mzappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,093
vCash: 50
Are the rumours true/any further reports on the NHL cancelling both Winter Classic and the All-Star Game tomorrow?

mzappa is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:49 PM
  #248
Jeffrey93
Registered User
 
Jeffrey93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,432
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Thats nice, without the owners TAKING ALL OF THE RISK by paying said players their high salaries and everything else that goes with owning and operating a team, the players would not have the ability to earn these high wages and would have to go to Europe to play for less.
Makes ya wonder why anyone is willing to be an NHL owner......if it's soooooo bad to be one. So much risk, so much money lost....

In most markets there isn't much "risk". Established markets, can lose a few million or make a few....totally up to the Owner.

The players could arguably create their own league as they are the product. Owners can't.

To say the players don't take any risk is pretty ridiculous though....go tell Marc Savard that he doesn't take any risk.

Jeffrey93 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #249
haseoke39
**** Cycle 4 Eichel
 
haseoke39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyLazaro View Post
why aren't they talking ... at all!!!

it's a ******* disgrace
Owners gave them the best offer they had contemplated and the PA isn't even accepting linkage. The gap is too broad. When the gap is broad enough, talking is only going to give people an opportunity to poison the well - get mad, make insulting offers, pull offers off the table. You need some distance and some dollars lost before people are going to come off their positions.

And yes, it'll be the players coming off their position.

haseoke39 is offline  
Old
10-28-2012, 02:52 PM
  #250
Fire Sather
new Niclas Wallin?
 
Fire Sather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 21,690
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Makes ya wonder why anyone is willing to be an NHL owner......if it's soooooo bad to be one. So much risk, so much money lost....

In most markets there isn't much "risk". Established markets, can lose a few million or make a few....totally up to the Owner.

The players could arguably create their own league as they are the product. Owners can't.

To say the players don't take any risk is pretty ridiculous though....go tell Marc Savard that he doesn't take any risk.
Risk when it comes to money. Players know the health risk involved in sports. Making another million isn't going to make his career ending injury any better

Fire Sather is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.