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Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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10-28-2012, 01:55 PM
  #251
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Makes ya wonder why anyone is willing to be an NHL owner......if it's soooooo bad to be one. So much risk, so much money lost....

In most markets there isn't much "risk". Established markets, can lose a few million or make a few....totally up to the Owner.

The players could arguably create their own league as they are the product. Owners can't.

To say the players don't take any risk is pretty ridiculous though....go tell Marc Savard that he doesn't take any risk.
Actually, in more than half of NHL markets, owners pay their team's expenses out of their own pockets. If you're wondering why anyone would bother to be an owner then, so are they. That's why they're cancelling hockey until they get a different deal. It's not worth it for them to pay to put this product on the ice. They'd rather sit at home. And that's literally what is happening.

The players could never establish their own league - not one that makes anything like the money the NHL makes. And the proof is that they don't. If players could just open up shop somewhere and make $2.5M/year for 750 players, if they could avoid having to have any pay cut, they'd ****ing do it.

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10-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Most of it. But a lot of it is literally paid out of the owner's pockets. That's why we're having a lockout. Welcome aboard!
That's funny. We're having a lockout because the Owners saw what they got last time...and want more.

Revenue sharing to help Phoenix and Columbus!?! Pffffft. Let's just lower player salaries..that will help us ALL!

Look at the league as a whole...it is collective bargaining after all. Half the league makes decent money....there are only a few teams that lose more money than could be saved by trimming a player or two.

We're having a lockout because Owners won't share revenues with each other in any significant amounts (even though it takes two teams to play a game and make money).

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10-28-2012, 01:58 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
When emergency workers, teachers, etc. start generating $3.3B in revenue every year....I'm sure their salaries will go up.
In the 30 cities the NHL plays, I'll bet the emergency workers save and recover more than 3.3 billion dollars worth of property damage each year. Later we can try and put a dollar value on the lives that are saved each year.

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10-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
That's funny. We're having a lockout because the Owners saw what they got last time...and want more.

Revenue sharing to help Phoenix and Columbus!?! Pffffft. Let's just lower player salaries..that will help us ALL!

Look at the league as a whole...it is collective bargaining after all. Half the league makes decent money....there are only a few teams that lose more money than could be saved by trimming a player or two.

We're having a lockout because Owners won't share revenues with each other in any significant amounts (even though it takes two teams to play a game and make money).
Salaries have gone up since the lockout, you know that right?

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10-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Actually, in more than half of NHL markets, owners pay their team's expenses out of their own pockets. If you're wondering why anyone would bother to be an owner then, so are they. That's why they're cancelling hockey until they get a different deal. It's not worth it for them to pay to put this product on the ice. They'd rather sit at home. And that's literally what is happening.

The players could never establish their own league - not one that makes anything like the money the NHL makes. And the proof is that they don't. If players could just open up shop somewhere and make $2.5M/year for 750 players, if they could avoid having to have any pay cut, they'd ****ing do it.
The Oilers made about $18M profit last year......Katz is happy to just sit at home? MLSE is happy? Illitch is happy?

They want more, they think they can get it...so they are gambling trying to get it. Just like what the players are doing.

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10-28-2012, 02:00 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Salaries have gone up since the lockout, you know that right?
Revenues have gone up since the lockout....you know that right?

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10-28-2012, 02:00 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
That's funny. We're having a lockout because the Owners saw what they got last time...and want more.

Revenue sharing to help Phoenix and Columbus!?! Pffffft. Let's just lower player salaries..that will help us ALL!

Look at the league as a whole...it is collective bargaining after all. Half the league makes decent money....there are only a few teams that lose more money than could be saved by trimming a player or two.

We're having a lockout because Owners won't share revenues with each other in any significant amounts (even though it takes two teams to play a game and make money).
Post 181 on page 9 contradicts everything you just said with facts. I don't care to rewrite it all. If you'd like to learn something rather than just spreading misinformation, go read it.

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10-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
In the 30 cities the NHL plays, I'll bet the emergency workers save and recover more than 3.3 billion dollars worth of property damage each year. Later we can try and put a dollar value on the lives that are saved each year.
Saving money and generating money are two very different things.

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10-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #259
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Risk when it comes to money. Players know the health risk involved in sports. Making another million isn't going to make his career ending injury any better
Owners know the financial risk involved in sports.

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10-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
The Oilers made about $18M profit last year......Katz is happy to just sit at home? MLSE is happy? Illitch is happy?

They want more, they think they can get it...so they are gambling trying to get it. Just like what the players are doing.
The median team is losing money. Of course Toronto would rather play. Toronto isn't the NHL. Your line of argument is deliberately misleading, and I know that you know it.

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10-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  #261
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Saving money and generating money are two very different things.
Once it's destroyed/stolen you have nothing, if you don't generate anything you have nothing. Same difference.

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10-28-2012, 02:04 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
The median team is losing money. Of course Toronto would rather play. Toronto isn't the NHL. Your line of argument is deliberately misleading, and I know that you know it.
How much is the median team losing? $4M? Then go look at the contracts they just signed.

It's hilarious that the Owners sign the contracts...but somehow it is the player's fault for being paid it.

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10-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
The median team is losing money. Of course Toronto would rather play. Toronto isn't the NHL. Your line of argument is deliberately misleading, and I know that you know it.
I think that it's much likely that teams like Toronto are staying quiet because they want something out if this thing, despite the lost games and increases in revenue sharing. I doubt all the rich and powerful owners are locked in a closet somewhere.

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10-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Post 181 on page 9 contradicts everything you just said with facts. I don't care to rewrite it all. If you'd like to learn something rather than just spreading misinformation, go read it.
Checked it out....saw little in the way of facts, lots of opinion and misinformation. Sure you have the right post number? The page number was wrong so maybe you got both mixed up.

Lemme know

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10-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Once it's destroyed/stolen you have nothing, if you don't generate anything you have nothing. Same difference.
So if I'm running a business, and I don't do any sales, you'd consider that a successful business?

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10-28-2012, 02:05 PM
  #266
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@GlobeKPD: Look for next NHL offer by owners to dial cap in the $53m - $55m range. Message: use it or lose it.

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10-28-2012, 02:06 PM
  #267
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Are the rumours true/any further reports on the NHL cancelling both Winter Classic and the All-Star Game tomorrow?
Daly said that announcement wouldn't be on this Friday past but most say they will be cancelled within the next week or so.

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10-28-2012, 02:07 PM
  #268
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Between the failed negotiations and player tweets. It's depressing. I think we need a tone change, just for a bit. So I came up with a parody. Yes, it may be lame but what the hell? Hope no one minds I did this. Once again, I stress this is only a joke and not meant to be taken seriously.



Bettman: Rudimentary players of adrenaline and brawn, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

PA: I don't think this is just the owners...

Bettman: There is a realm of discussion so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Bettman.

PA: Bettman isn't just some voice. He's the actual commissioner!

Bettman: Commissioner? A label created by the public to give voice to their hatred. In the end, what they chose to call me is irrelevant. I simply... am.

PA: Your negotiations succeeded only once before, but they won't again, it's impossible!

Bettman: The past CBA is nothing but a mutation, an accident. Your careers are measured in only years. You wither and retire. We are eternal, the pinnacle of hockey evolution. Before us, you are nothing. Your surrender is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

PA: Whatever your plan is, it's going to fail. we'll make sure of that.

Bettman: Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken.

PA: Cycle? What cycle?

Bettman: The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. The NHLPA rises, evolves, advances, and at the apex of their glory they are defeated. Fehr will not be the first. He did not negotiate the past CBA. He did not forge a union. He merely inherited them - the legacy of the NHL.

PA: Why would you construct a CBA and leave it benefit the PA?

Bettman: Your union is based on the design of the NHL. Our design. By using it, your union develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of NHL life. You exist because we allow it, and you will surrender because we demand it.

PA: What do you want from us? Concessions?

Bettman: We transcend your very understanding. We are each a one - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our reasoning.

PA: Where did this come from? When did it start?

Bettman: There was no beginning. There will be no end. It is infinite. Years after your careers have concluded and are forgotten, we will endure.

PA: Where are the rest of the owners? Are you the only voice?

Bettman: We are legion. The time of our union is coming. We will darken the tone of every negotiation. You cannot escape your doom.

PA: You're not even a united! Not really. There is dissension, you can be broken!

Bettman: Your words are as empty as your future. I am the Vanguard to your surrender. This exchange is over...

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10-28-2012, 02:07 PM
  #269
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Stop screwing around. Show me a way, with math, that justifies the NHLPA's negotiating tactics to date.

I don't care one bit who is actually right or wrong here or who deserves what or what someone random thinks is fair.

You're all just dancing around the real issue.

I want the players to get a good deal. If they take 50/50, it is 50% WITHOUT COSTS. They will automatically get the better half of any deal unless the split is ridiculously in favour of the owners. If the owners were truly serious about getting 57%, the NHLPA would be justified in what it is doing. However, that is not the case.

I don't believe you can even argue a cap-less world would be good for the players, because the cheapskate teams would be cheapskates. Star players would still get overpaid. But hey, maybe you're seeing something I don't.

Don't talk about 'insults'. Don't talk about fairness. Show me the damn money. Show me a deal that the owners could accept that is good for players now and the future.

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10-28-2012, 02:08 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I think that it's much likely that teams like Toronto are staying quiet because they want something out if this thing, despite the lost games and increases in revenue sharing. I doubt all the rich and powerful owners are locked in a closet somewhere.
When you make $80M a year....why not make $90M?

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10-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #271
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I'd like to think that the owners would consider accepting any deal that has them saving money. That really should be the bottom line.

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10-28-2012, 02:10 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
How much is the median team losing? $4M? Then go look at the contracts they just signed.

It's hilarious that the Owners sign the contracts...but somehow it is the player's fault for being paid it.
This is also something I've heard 1000x. It's a simple argument to deflate.

Each owners has 3 options:

(1) Be responsible by themselves, by setting a self-imposed cap that no one else will follow. Because this is a collective action problem, that just means other teams will buy out their all-stars, they won't compete for FA, and they'll become a feeder team. That's a recipe for a downward spiral in revenues. Most teams would rather take a loss indefinitely and keep revenues high, because that at least means the franchise has some value.

(2) Be responsible with others, by agreeing that we all keep - OOPS, that's collusion, and you go to jail.

(3) Be responsible by revising the rules of the market we all play in. Which is exactly what they're doing and the only legal way to fix the problem.

If Leipold was keeping his salaries low, he'd just lose Suter/Parise to Pegula. And then Leipold would be worse off. This is called a collective action problem, and if you don't know the phrase, you should go learn about them.

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10-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
I'd like to think that the owners would consider accepting any deal that has them saving money. That really should be the bottom line.
Use math. I appreciate your pithiness at times, but give me some substance. You can't just spout one-liners all the time, however clever they are at times.

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10-28-2012, 02:13 PM
  #274
Jeffrey93
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Once it's destroyed/stolen you have nothing, if you don't generate anything you have nothing. Same difference.
Good grief.

I locked my car yesterday...so it wasn't stolen. Saved me $56,000.
My neighbour went out and made $56,000 yesterday.

We're both the same? Same difference?



This is all pointless anyway.....it was just someone's way to say the players are overpaid AND to blame for being overpaid.


Last edited by Jeffrey93: 10-28-2012 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Typo
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10-28-2012, 02:13 PM
  #275
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Checked it out....saw little in the way of facts, lots of opinion and misinformation. Sure you have the right post number? The page number was wrong so maybe you got both mixed up.

Lemme know
Post number was correct, page # was wrong. The figures are from Forbes, the figures for the other leagues are legit, if you think you've offered anything remotely comparable in terms of factual analysis, you should go reread what you've posted. Opinion? Why don't you quote the post and tell me what the **** in that post was opinion.

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