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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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10-28-2012, 04:53 PM
  #376
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Ok...lets start paying Firefighters $2.5M a year....even though they don't generate revenue. We'll then start paying athletes, actors, rock stars, etc. $65,000 a year even though they generate billions of $'s in revenues.

Movie makers, concert promoters and sports Owners will love you.....for a while. When every single city in the continent goes into bankruptcy in a matter of hours and anarchy ensues....not many people will be going to arenas or theatres.

Voters, via elected officials, determine the value of emergency services and then allocate funds for those services in their budgets and charge taxes accordingly.
Owners determine the value of players and then allocate funds for those players in their budgets and charge fans, tv networks, sponsors, etc. accordingly.
Or you could move players back to what people in the real world earn.

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10-28-2012, 04:54 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
On TVA Sports during the Abbotsford/Hamilton AHL game, veteran reporter Yvon Pedneault (he's been covering the NHL for decades) talked about there is some talk the owners will be presenting a ''business model'' this week to the PA.

Also said several owners are starting to be quite unhappy and putting pressure on Gary.
Did he happen to give any more info on the "business model"?

Sounds interesting

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10-28-2012, 04:55 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
I have to assume if this lasts a year Bettman will be looked at a little differently by most Owners. They followed him last time, gave up a year....got their prized 'cost certainty'....and now it isn't good enough so they're going through it all over again.

Makes me think there are at least a few Owners that see the last lockout as an absolute waste. But...it was the Owners that exposed the loopholes and took advantage of them.

Most people, aside from those on this board, seem to be in agreement that these CBA's are basically a way to save Owners from themselves. Pretty hard to blame the players when they can only accept what is offered.
I don't blame the players for accepting the deals offered under the last CBA. I blame them for not understand that the market that created those deals was too skewed towards them, and so the owners need to rectify it.

The only rumored grumbling I've heard about owners is that Bettman gave up too much with his last offer. If the PA refuses to take even a too-generous offer, I don't imagine the owners will have any problem with his conduct. Especially not in the big picture of growing the game at unprecedented rates.

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10-28-2012, 04:56 PM
  #379
Kirk Muller
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
No....it shows that the NHL isn't/wasn't. The NHLPA knew the NHL wouldn't agree to continue on under the current CBA. Still gotta offer to if yer the NHLPA.

And also...very rarely do both sides agree to open up talks earlier than they have to, takes leverage away from both sides. If both sides are relatively happy with the current CBA and don't expect many changes...then yes. They'll talk early. If that isn't the case...they wait until time causes pressure. Who feels the pressure more is the gamble.
again, you obviously have no clue who Donald Fehr. NONE. ZILCH.

actually its quite often, outside of sports, unions and company discuss prior to the contract being up. and if you want to talk sports, none are going to play and negotiate after what Fehr. Do some history.

you talk leverage and basically you are telling the league to give up theirs and play under negotiations. Your talking out of both sides of your mouth.

and again, if both sides are happy you would negotiate early. So if one side is dissatisfied, they should play and negotiate under that very agreement they are unhappy about. Dont you see how crazy you are sounding.

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10-28-2012, 04:56 PM
  #380
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Bullocks. If this was a player strike and the Owners wanted to continue on with the old CBA while negotiating...the court of public opinion would be MUCH different and you know it.
What? The owners DID lock the players out and if it's not a 2/3 majority on the owners side its close. On this site it's probably 75% judging by the posts. How do you explain that?

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10-28-2012, 05:10 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Well, clearly the PA has reason to be pissed, because they gave away the best outcome they'll get and they know it.

But I'm not sure anyone in the owner's camp is really pissed at Bettman, at least not to the effect of wanting him to give more up. What I hear is that owners, if anything, are pissed at him trying to give away too much, and are preparing a new offer that's lower than the last one.
I strongly beg to differ.

Besides Jagr and Boyle and a couple of others, 99% of the players have no clue about the implications of the NHL cancelling 26.5% of the season and don't understand the term "delinkage".

Like Pierre Lebrun mentioned on RDS, their agents on the other are the only ones who really understand those negotiations and will voice out their concerns once their own financial interests are seriously compromised.

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10-28-2012, 05:14 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Can't be true! I've read nothing on here but how the Owners will sit on their hands for as long as it takes. The players will crumble and become unhappy with Fehr....not the Owners getting mad at Bettman!

I'm so confused....this guy that knows a lot about the game and has been part of it for years.....he can't know as much as the people on these boards right? He's gotta be wrong!
I doubt it's what you think. My guess is the "hardliners" are sick of getting, to their mind, jerked around. They want him to make a final offer and, if it's not taken, they'll just shut the league down and open camp in 2013 up to whomever shows up. That's the business plan I expect.

Only other thing I could see happening is they clue the players in on expansion and re-offer the same thing the players just turned down, but back it up with a new set of numbers to show they aren't losing jack.

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10-28-2012, 05:14 PM
  #383
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
I strongly beg to differ.

Besides Jagr and Boyle and a couple of others, 99% of the players have no clue about the implications of the NHL cancelling 26.5% of the season and don't understand the term "delinkage".

Like Pierre Lebrun mentioned on RDS, their agents on the other are the only ones who really understand those negotiations and will voice out their concerns once their own financial interests are seriously compromised.
Well, actually, I agree. The players (probably, mostly) don't know it. That's probably why they didn't take the deal in the first place.

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10-28-2012, 05:16 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Or you could move players back to what people in the real world earn.
many other people in the real world earn massive salaries from having a particular skill set.

While I agree that emergency service personnel should be paid more, it means raising taxes, which most people are against, so it won't happen. Additionally, the wages and risks for those jobs aren't a secret so people know what they are in for when they apply.

NHL players deserve to be well compensated for their skills, up to a certain extent. Although people are correct in saying that "without the players there is no league", it doesn't have to be the current players. People pay to watch Major Junior and the AHL now, why wouldn't people pay to see those players playing in the jersey of the NHL team they've supported for years? No, they wouldn't pay the current price (although it seems like TML and NYR fans will pay for a pretty crappy product based on different times in the past decade or so), but the players wouldn't be paid as much.

The owners should expect to make a profit on their investment (based on them not being entirely incompetent) that is at least in line with that of their employees. If that's not happening, then the business model needs to be seriously re-examined, or they need to get out of the business (although this hurts the players too).

The more I read about this whole thing the more it sounds like there are two sides who don't understand what they have and what they want, let alone the other side.

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Old
10-28-2012, 05:18 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
I strongly beg to differ.

Besides Jagr and Boyle and a couple of others, 99% of the players have no clue about the implications of the NHL cancelling 26.5% of the season and don't understand the term "delinkage".

Like Pierre Lebrun mentioned on RDS, their agents on the other are the only ones who really understand those negotiations and will voice out their concerns once their own financial interests are seriously compromised.
This is 100% true. The agents, if furnished with the complete text of these offers are the only party not involved in direct negotiations (Bettman/Daly/the Fehrs/1 or 2 of the governors) that will grok them entirely and understand the implications for everyone involved. Of course, no matter how much they'd have you believe they're on the players' side, they aren't actually on any side but theirs.

Remember, they just had a banner summer, for their part, so they don't feel any pain at this point.

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10-28-2012, 05:29 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
The thing about profits is that the owners are generally unwilling to provide enough information in order to verify said profits or lack there of as being accurate. It's difficult to ask the party which you are demanding they take a x percent pay cut to take your word for it.
Agreed, but there is absolutely no doubt that the current system is not working in some cities simply by virtue of the bankruptcies and possible bankruptcies that are public knowledge.

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10-28-2012, 05:31 PM
  #387
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Bring back Alan Eagleson!!!

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10-28-2012, 05:40 PM
  #388
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Bring back Alan Eagleson!!!
or even Paul Kelly

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10-28-2012, 05:47 PM
  #389
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Go after dat cap. It seems to be hitting the NFL super hard with the teams all even and stuff.

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Old
10-28-2012, 05:51 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
hopefully some of the agents, heck even the wives of players start talking some sense into these lower tier players who make up the majority of the league.

At some point, someone will convince them that the talking heads for Fehr, the Crosbys and Toews of the world who are set for life already, are the only ones this lockout is helping and is preventing them from making a living. The agents will start to guide these fringe players in time.
LOL! That's it--I've been obsessed with the PA Exec, player agents and obtuseness of the players themselves for their dumb-headed approach to this sordid affair. But it's the lack of women that is responsible. No level-headed wife would ever let her hubby throw away their financial security in order to win a silly fight with the boss.
If you look at the percentage of players who are married (esp with kids), I'll bet you'll find it's well under 50%. Hence the insanity.
Conundrum solved.

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10-28-2012, 05:53 PM
  #391
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The implication is that the players were obligated to give, because the owners asked, and thus the players agreeing that they needed to give was not a concession. I don't believe this is appropriate.
That's what happens when a company loses money...

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10-28-2012, 05:54 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
LOL! That's it--I've been obsessed with the PA Exec, player agents and obtuseness of the players themselves for their dumb-headed approach to this sordid affair. But it's the lack of women that is responsible. No level-headed wife would ever let her hubby throw away their financial security in order to win a silly fight with the boss.
If you look at the percentage of players who are married (esp with kids), I'll bet you'll find it's well under 50%. Hence the insanity.
Conundrum solved.
Well, if the solution is to get more players married, I bet the wife and kids are gonna take a hell of a lot more than 12% of that salary.

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10-28-2012, 06:15 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Just freeze the cap where it is for the entire 6 years of the CBA. If the league continues to grow revenue they win and the players didn't give up anything.
The owners would likely go for that, the PA, not so much.

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10-28-2012, 06:19 PM
  #394
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DO SOMETHING. We want hockey.

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10-28-2012, 06:25 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Or you could move players back to what people in the real world earn.
yeah, because we know that the owners will be so nice and kind to all the fans and charge reasonable ticket prices....yeah right.

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10-28-2012, 06:29 PM
  #396
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I spoke to a family member yesterday.
Casual hockey fan.....but a very very smart lawyer weel known in his line of work.
And what he told me blew my mind (he followed this lockout more than hockey itself).

He is 100% sure that Fehr is going for the salary cap...since day 1 of these negociations.

To go to war, you need an enemy.
To win a war, you need an army.

And that's pretty much what Fehr did since day 1 (according to him).
He tried to build an enemy hated by everyone in Bettman and he tried to build an army with the fanbase. All the spins and rhetorics are there to fullfilled this purpose.

Nobody understand why the players are fighting for so little.
Nobody understand why they would lose more money then they would gain.....
Nobody understand why is there a lockout right now with that much money involved.

But let's say that Fehr is indeed after the salary cap......he can only acheive victory with a very long lockout, a very long battle and with everybody on board. And Fehr did nothing to accelerate these negociations but worked really hard to demonize Bettman and even harder to influence the public opinion.

Why did they worked so hard to gain public sympathy?
Why did they worked so hard at demonizing Bettman as a bad guy?

If he fought the Cap from day 1......everybody would have hated him for doing so.....to do that he needs a lot of time, a lot of desperation on the owners side, a lot of frustrated players and a just cause from public perspective. And now, he got almost everything he needs.

If the players lose more than they will be able to gain........if the owners came back with a lower offer than the last one (cause the NHLPA NEVER CAME OUT ONCE with an offer that wasn't a response to the previous offer from the league), then it will be an open war and only then the players might welling to unleashed Ferh to go after the cap....
Very likely scenario. One that the league is expecting and has been prepared for from the moment the PA declared war by hiring Fehr.

No coincidence that they signed deals right up to the deadline to ensure there would be no case for collusion. To add boilerplate to their case, they had two of the bargaining committee members have a fight over a RFA.

The NHL knows exactly what is coming and is more than ready to introduce Mr. Fehr to a whole new level of hardball. Unfortunately for the players, they are going to pay the price for trying to re-fight the last CBA battle.

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10-28-2012, 06:33 PM
  #397
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yeah, because we know that the owners will be so nice and kind to all the fans and charge reasonable ticket prices....yeah right.
Who is asking the owners to charge less. They'll charge what the market will bear.

I'm fine with owners making massive profits and setting players salaries at a level that all teams can ice a competitive roster. I'm not losing any sleep if the players are playing in the best league in the world with the highest salaries, but that only equates to 25% of revenues. Why wouldn't I be?

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10-28-2012, 06:37 PM
  #398
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The PA declared war by hiring Fehr? Man you guys crack me up. Not much of a warrior is he. Giving in on pretty much everything the owners want. Not proposing to get rid of the cap and accepting the philosophy of 50-50 just slowly over time as any reasonable man would expect of an indsutry with rising revenues and overall profits is his secret weapon to get rid of the cap? Pretty sneaky that. What if the owners accepted is last offer, man would he have looked foolish eh?

And what Bettman is doing is a gentlemanly call to tea and scones to discuss opportunities for partnering and moving forward?

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10-28-2012, 06:40 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
Or you could move players back to what people in the real world earn.
People in the real world.....like Actors and Musicians?

In my example I did move them back to what people in the real world earn.

But truthfully...they currently make what people in the real world earn already. They make what their employer feels they are worth.

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10-28-2012, 06:41 PM
  #400
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yeah, because we know that the owners will be so nice and kind to all the fans and charge reasonable ticket prices....yeah right.
Doesn't matter. Those uppity union players earn more than real people like him and that just can't be tolerated. Besides, they're being so mean to those poor billionaires.

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