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Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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Old
10-28-2012, 07:43 PM
  #426
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hahahaha

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comerica crowd now: let's go red wings! (clap, clap, clap-clap, clap)

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10-28-2012, 07:51 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Marc The Habs Fan posted that the NHL will probably be proposing a new "business model" this week
still want to know what that means

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10-28-2012, 07:54 PM
  #428
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Kevin Paul Dupont ‏@GlobeKPD
Look for next NHL offer by owners to dial cap in the $53m - $55m range. Message: use it or lose it.

oh yay. if this is true we can look forward to negotiations moving backwards.

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10-28-2012, 07:59 PM
  #429
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still want to know what that means
same

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10-28-2012, 08:01 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Kevin Paul Dupont ‏@GlobeKPD
Look for next NHL offer by owners to dial cap in the $53m - $55m range. Message: use it or lose it.

oh yay. if this is true we can look forward to negotiations moving backwards.
If I may take a stab at the message; either you take linkage with a high cap or you get delinkage with a lower cap with possible amnesty buyout or rollback to get under cap.

Interesting...

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10-28-2012, 08:23 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Gustave View Post
If I may take a stab at the message; either you take linkage with a high cap or you get delinkage with a lower cap with possible amnesty buyout or rollback to get under cap.

Interesting...
Nope, they are going to play hardball. 53-55 million dollar cap fully linked, no make whole.....

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10-28-2012, 08:24 PM
  #432
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still want to know what that means
What do you call it? I think they want to cut players from contracts if they underperform. Like the NFL i think.

Wouldnt surprise me when Fehr has used the no-cap threat.

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10-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by AHockeyGameBrokeOut View Post
Gary Bettman will be replaced by the interim commissioner, Mila Kunis.

That's what they mean by 'business model'.
That works for a lot of reasons

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10-28-2012, 08:26 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Kevin Paul Dupont ‏@GlobeKPD
Look for next NHL offer by owners to dial cap in the $53m - $55m range. Message: use it or lose it.

oh yay. if this is true we can look forward to negotiations moving backwards.
What's wrong with $53-55? Isn't that where the cap was around 2009? That's still almost $2Million a player. I say sign the deal.

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10-28-2012, 08:28 PM
  #435
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If owners of the Leafs, Habs and Rangers decide to take one for the team for their own long term savings then the other owners will have a hard time putting pressure on Bettman. Suter calling out his owner didn't help so Leipold will look like a wuss among his peers if he doesn't fully back the league.


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10-28-2012, 08:28 PM
  #436
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Logan, sshh, you are making it worse...
How can he make it worse? He must be close to bottom about now.

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10-28-2012, 08:28 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Tra La La View Post
Nope, they are going to play hardball. 53-55 million dollar cap, no make whole.....
55? That my friend is a serious rollback. I'm thinking the owners want to steer back the PA towards the offer from last week by using this low cap offer that seems unlinked, unless the league anticipates massive revenue losses.

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10-28-2012, 08:31 PM
  #438
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Man can you imagine if the players started negotiating early in the summer? This would all be over now right?

Is there anyone that can actually say that with a straight face now?
If they had started years ago they might have been playing and had 53% of HRR. 53% would have looked damn nice to an owner 2-3 years ago.

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10-28-2012, 08:41 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Gustave View Post
55? That my friend is a serious rollback. I'm thinking the owners want to steer back the PA towards the offer from last week by using this low cap offer that seems unlinked, unless the league anticipates massive revenue losses.

Doesn't matter. The NHLPA agitated this with the repeated, knowingly false message that the Players won't get paid every dollar they earn as part of their current contracts.

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10-28-2012, 10:00 PM
  #440
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Finally!!

I've been hoping the NHL would have done this before the Oct 26th deadline. The players will fold. This puts more pressure on them. They may not fold now, but they will fold. It's just a question of whether we get some hockey this year or not.

Take your millions of dollars in salary or leave it. It's your billion that you are going to lose.

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10-28-2012, 10:07 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
And Suter is back tracking like crazy.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/176190261.html

ďI thought a lot about since what I said, I donít question Craig Leipold and Minnesota with regards to negotiating our contracts in good faith. I donít question that. That might have came off wrong. I donít question that. Itís just frustrating. We just want to play. We support Don in what heís doing. Obviously you sign a contract, and you want to hold true to that. I think, and I hope, everything works out.Ē
Do you feel that in the back of Leipoldís mind, he figured youíd take a haircut: ďNo, I honestly donít feel that. Itís easy to think that or it might come off like that, but honestly, I know theyíre good people. And I know they wouldnít negotiate thinking, ĎOK, letís give them this because itíll end up being this.í Because thatís not the kind of the people they are. So that came off wrong [in Suterís original comments to ESPN the Magazine].Ē
Damn, he pulled the gear in reverse and hit the accelerator hard, that is some seirous back tracking.

As for news that the league is proposing a new business model...I fully expect that it's a proposal that will play games with the players and will serve to achieve nothing in terms of progress but I'm thankful for the same favour - like not having to wait until December to see another proposal from either side land on the table. I think it's a safer bet that should the league move backwards in their stance, the players won't counter and will stick with their proposal because they stand behind it (not sure which one they're referring to but anyone's guess would be as good as mine).

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10-28-2012, 10:09 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
PA should ask 3 questions:

1. What is our end game. Do we want to keep HRR% at 53-57 or do we want to get rid of the cap
2. How likely is that NHL is willing to accept our end game. Did we already lose this fight.
3. Are we ready to go all the way, and strike next season too. If we arent then why fight and gain nothing.
This is a very good analysis.

1. If Donald Fehr is actually doing his duty and just listening to his players and getting them what they want that I have a hard time seeing the players telling him to "get rid of the cap." I think they are saying just save our current contracts, and from all we have heard from the players themselves it is hard to dispute that.

2. That is the key IMO. The NHLPA doesn't want to negotiate off the NHL's offers because they know once they go their they can't go back.

3. I would think that 90% of the players aren't willing to sit out 2 seasons to save 10%. The Russians/Euros probably would but most of the guys would probably just want to go make their millions even if it is a little less. The problem is the NHLPA is more worried about that 10% than the 90% because that 10% earns nearly 50% of the money.

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10-28-2012, 10:22 PM
  #443
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http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hocke...ve-better.html

Chicago pundit: NHL fans deserve better

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:23 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
This is a very good analysis.

1. If Donald Fehr is actually doing his duty and just listening to his players and getting them what they want that I have a hard time seeing the players telling him to "get rid of the cap." I think they are saying just save our current contracts, and from all we have heard from the players themselves it is hard to dispute that.
The voting members of the NHLPA and Fehr are forcing their agenda on the rest of the league. There's a high probability that they're controlling all of the interviews and blackballing players that disagree with their approach.

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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
2. That is the key IMO. The NHLPA doesn't want to negotiate off the NHL's offers because they know once they go there they can't go back.
Fehr wants a stalemate. He chose this.

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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
3. I would think that 90% of the players aren't willing to sit out 2 seasons to save 10%. The Russians/Euros probably would but most of the guys would probably just want to go make their millions even if it is a little less. The problem is the NHLPA is more worried about that 10% than the 90% because that 10% earns nearly 50% of the money.
Sorry, but your numbers are wrong. The majority of players who are affected by the CBA are the non-superstar players.

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Old
10-28-2012, 10:42 PM
  #445
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Feel free to name a single PA leader with a more combative reputation.

Don was brought in because he brought MLB owners to their knees and as a signal to the NHL owners that they were in for a fight.

Problem is, Donny boy and brother were advising NotGoodenough last CBA negotiations and we all know how that turned out for Bobby.
How about Bettman? I'd say he is more combatitive. Its his one trick.

How much did Fehr get paid for his advice to the PA last time? Or was it more in the lind of way that all the league commisioners gave Bettman advice? Or do you really believe you can make the case that Fehr is responsible for the last lockout too? He sure is the powerful svengali.

Well Don came in and the owners were ready for a big fight. So they made their first opening punch, a big one. And he came back very reasonably and said the players can see there are some struggling markets still and are willing to work with big markets to help them by taking a smaller perecent of revenue going forward so that we can help those markets. We will even give bettman a $100 mil fund to allocate as the smartest guy in the room would see fit?

5 minutes later the owner presented their 2nd proposal, already typed up.

50-50 and all the things you won last time as a trade off for a cap get undone. Take it or leave it.

And Fehr agrees to 50-50 if they do it through growth and all fans and players thought a deal was immininent.

Not good enough for the plutocrats.

And yet Fehr you think is the one declaring war? Let me tell you, i wouldnt want him as a warrior on my side then, maybe as someone who would work to find a deal, but not as a combative warrior.

Maybe now that Bettman's intransigence is rising, we'll get to see some warrior stuff for a change from Fehr instead of all these reasonable attempts at finding a deal within the owners preferred framework of cba's.

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10-28-2012, 10:45 PM
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
This is a very good analysis.

1. If Donald Fehr is actually doing his duty and just listening to his players and getting them what they want that I have a hard time seeing the players telling him to "get rid of the cap." I think they are saying just save our current contracts, and from all we have heard from the players themselves it is hard to dispute that.
I think that's all the players are saying as well. But I seriously doubt they told him to poison the stew with de-linkage. How many guys in those meetings know what that is?


Quote:
2. That is the key IMO. The NHLPA doesn't want to negotiate off the NHL's offers because they know once they go their they can't go back.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I don't think Fehr wants a deal, I think he wants to cement his legacy with one last great battle. I can't understand why else he'd be modeling his proposals off a goodenow offer that was summarily rejected in 2005, despite being closer, dollar-wise (when you don't look at the particulars, at least), to what the owners wanted then than Fehr is now.


Quote:
3. I would think that 90% of the players aren't willing to sit out 2 seasons to save 10%. The Russians/Euros probably would but most of the guys would probably just want to go make their millions even if it is a little less. The problem is the NHLPA is more worried about that 10% than the 90% because that 10% earns nearly 50% of the money.
I agree. I keep coming back to the idea of a guy like Jay Beagle. College educated...late 20s...just finally got his foot in the door...bottom 3 guy who could be bottom 6 with a mite more seasoning. Anyone gonna tell me that guy wants to fight this battle over this little money? If they miss a year, GMs might forget he even exists.

Is he going to sacrifice two years of what would be a sort of short career so Zach Parise can feel he's won some sort of moral victory?

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10-28-2012, 10:50 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/hocke...ve-better.html

Chicago pundit: NHL fans deserve better
He doesn't seem like the brightest bulb.
This is why he reaches the conclusion that the owners a re mostly to blame:

The players say theyíve taken steps toward the owners in all of their most recent proposals while stressing that the too-good-to-be-true 50/50 proposal from the owners really offered them nothing.

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10-28-2012, 10:54 PM
  #448
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50-50 and all the things you won last time as a trade off for a cap get undone. Take it or leave it.

And Fehr agrees to 50-50 if they do it through growth and all fans and players thought a deal was immininent.
.
The NHL will never accept Fehr's so called 50-50.

With growth it might hit 50-50

Not enough growth ? NHLPA might get a lot more.

A lot of growth ? There are escalators that will take the NHLPA to 52-54% but hey Fehr tells the media he offered 50-50 and people think Bettman is evil for not accepting. The NHL will right back into a lockout if they were to accept such an offer (in worse shape).

Fehr is just here to pick a fight and remind us how great MLB is because of him.

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10-28-2012, 11:04 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Well Don came in and the owners were ready for a big fight. So they made their first opening punch, a big one. And he came back very reasonably and said the players can see there are some struggling markets still and are willing to work with big markets to help them by taking a smaller perecent of revenue going forward so that we can help those markets. We will even give bettman a $100 mil fund to allocate as the smartest guy in the room would see fit?

5 minutes later the owner presented their 2nd proposal, already typed up.

50-50 and all the things you won last time as a trade off for a cap get undone. Take it or leave it.

And Fehr agrees to 50-50 if they do it through growth and all fans and players thought a deal was immininent.

Not good enough for the plutocrats.

And yet Fehr you think is the one declaring war?
ce
Is this imaginary scenario supposed to have already taken place or is it a vision from the future?

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10-28-2012, 11:09 PM
  #450
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
PA should ask 3 questions:

1. What is our end game. Do we want to keep HRR% at 53-57 or do we want to get rid of the cap
2. How likely is that NHL is willing to accept our end game. Did we already lose this fight.
3. Are we ready to go all the way, and strike next season too. If we arent then why fight and gain nothing.
1 - Aren't they still bickering about what constitutes HRR? Trying to get rid of the cap is a card they can play that would make the Owners step back and say "Awww crap, they're in this for the long haul" and maybe give a slightly better deal, in my opinion anyway.
2 - The idea that every deal offered by the NHL from here on out will be worse than their first couple is myth. Nobody can predict the willingness of the Owners or the PA to go the distance. If the PA falters first and can't weather the storm any longer...then yeah, they'll likely get a worse deal than they could have got earlier on. They're banking on (just like all Unions do) that the Employer will blink first. Not cave. But want to put an end to the lockout and move off their position enough to satisfy the PA.
3 - The PA isn't striking, not this season or next. They are locked out. And it's a question nobody, not even the PA guys or the players, can answer. Usually they'd be briefed before hand and told "This could go into a 2nd year, are you prepared for that?". At the time...they might all say yes, but that can change as time goes on. Just like it can for the Owners.

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