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Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

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Old
10-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Very few, stupidity just doesn't make sense...for most...can't believe they are clinging to what one guy wants, again...
I am 100% on the players side. I hope they holdout as long as they can. I want teams like Nashville and minni paying those huge bonuses with no revenue coming in. I want to see the winter classic cancelled and see the league lose all that revenue ad most of all I want the small market teams that don't deserve to be there file for bankruptcy and fold or forced to sell, they are the crux of this whole thing. They drag everything thing and everyone else down. I would love nothing more then to see a league with 20 to 24 teams. I honestly hope the players can hold out as long as possible, watch Bettman finally leave. I would also love to see OV, kovalchuk stay in the KHL and give the NHL a big up yours. This for me is the dream outcome. People say the owners will win and they might but if them holding out long enough to force a few non essential teams into bankruptcy then IMHO the PA will have won

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10-28-2012, 11:48 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
If players said "Damn...if we took their first offer I would be better off than I am right now!" they wouldn't be much of a Union. A player saying that would be looking out for himself only...screw the guys in Junior right now that would be looking at a 70/30 split when it is their turn. Then when they do the same thing the next group will be fighting to stay above a 25% take. And those poor AHL players another poster mentioned....their pay will drop considerably because of this as well.

Players are taking the hit right now so players 5, 10, 15 years down the road aren't looking at a 90/10 split.

What is best for the Owners will win out....which might be not taking as much from the players so a lot of them can get back to making money themselves.

Anyone that thinks the Players are the only ones sacrificing money to get what they believe is a 'fair deal' is kidding themselves. Owners are in the same boat.

I've seen manufacturing plants close because the Union "hadn't had a raise in 5 years"....the employees sacrificed their paychecks to try to get what they felt was fair. Lots of spinoff jobs were lost....plant closed...can we badmouth those guys too? Happens quite often, unskilled labour looking to make $30+ an hour, and in those places there definitely IS a sense of entitlement.

Remember folks....the old way was pay players as much or as little as you want. There was a minimum salary...but no Cap floor. Teams could have low balled everyone and been laughing. They INSISTED on this system and won. Salaries linked to revenues so Owners aren't allowed to overspend. Unfortunately (as weird as that is) revenues grew.
So the start of your post is that the players are fighting so they won't lose in future CBAs, but you admit they ended up winning the last one... so why shouldn't they give back here?

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10-28-2012, 11:49 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
I am 100% on the players side. I hope they holdout as long as they can. I want teams like Nashville and minni paying those huge bonuses with no revenue coming in. I want to see the winter classic cancelled and see the league lose all that revenue ad most of all I want the small market teams that don't deserve to be there file for bankruptcy and fold or forced to sell, they are the crux of this whole thing. They drag everything thing and everyone else down. I would love nothing more then to see a league with 20 to 24 teams. I honestly hope the players can hold out as long as possible, watch Bettman finally leave. I would also love to see OV, kovalchuk stay in the KHL and give the NHL a big up yours. This for me is the dream outcome. People say the owners will win and they might but if them holding out long enough to force a few non essential teams into bankruptcy then IMHO the PA will have won
20-24 teams and you're on the players side? Your players would lose around 150 jobs

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10-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
I am 100% on the players side. I hope they holdout as long as they can. I want teams like Nashville and minni paying those huge bonuses with no revenue coming in. I want to see the winter classic cancelled and see the league lose all that revenue ad most of all I want the small market teams that don't deserve to be there file for bankruptcy and fold or forced to sell, they are the crux of this whole thing. They drag everything thing and everyone else down. I would love nothing more then to see a league with 20 to 24 teams. I honestly hope the players can hold out as long as possible, watch Bettman finally leave. I would also love to see OV, kovalchuk stay in the KHL and give the NHL a big up yours. This for me is the dream outcome. People say the owners will win and they might but if them holding out long enough to force a few non essential teams into bankruptcy then IMHO the PA will have won
Yes, the PA comes out massive winners with 120+ jobs lost.

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10-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
So the start of your post is that the players are fighting so they won't lose in future CBAs, but you admit they ended up winning the last one... so why shouldn't they give back here?
It could be argued they won the last time because they traded losing a season and accepting a salary cap for more player friendly sub-issues. It appears they've been offered nothing that they like yet, I assume that is what the players are waiting for.

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10-28-2012, 11:56 AM
  #181
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This is exactly what the owners are telling everyone, whether it's one hundred percent factual or not has yet to be established. I for one choose to believe neither side is exactly righteous so tend not believe that the explanation that the owners are only asking for the absolute minimum to ensure the long-term survival of the league is accurate. It looks like they are swinging for the fences with a man on second when they need a single run to win the game, to me.
You have your lack/distrust of facts, I have my facts:

1. The NFL gives its players 47%. Albeit without a cap, MLB gives its players ~45%. The NBA gives its players 50%. ALL of these leagues make more in TV revenue, which is the one major source of money that has NO OVERHEAD COSTS for owners, meaning the NHL pays out more in overhead for every dollar they make back than in these other leagues. If any of these leagues are anything like the NHL, this would indicate players should actually get less than 50% in the NHL.

2. Forbes reports that the median NHL team is losing money. The average NHL team makes only $4M/year, well less than a reasonable return on investment on the market. For the NHL to thrive in the long-term, they need to be a reasonably successful investment. For a franchise you paid $300M for, a 1.33% return on investment won't cut it.

3. RS can help plug holes, but not holes this big. No other major sports league has adopted a RS program that relies on 3-4 teams getting pillaged to keep afloat half the league that's underwater. The NFL may have tremendous sharing, but it doesn't amount to tremendous redistribution - even the poorest teams are putting into the pot, and even the richest teams are taking out of it. Even under the most draconian, politically impossible RS program, where you take away 95% of Toronto's profit, you can only get the average team to $4M/year profit. Split that between several owners in some cases, and the average owner makes less than the average player, while being on the line for all liabilities of the franchise and fronting all of its capital. It's not just bad, it's insane. Even the players don't seem to think that RS can do that much, because they only proposed increasing it from 150 to 240, which the owners met them more than halfway on.

4. Back to owners losing money. Owners are the party that makes the least out of this deal by far, and that's why they have all the leverage. If ~25 games get cancelled, players will have lost $500M that they would have earned, the whole amount they were fighting for between the last two proposals. If ~25 games get lost, owners will lose ~30M, net. It would take 4 years of cancelled games before the owners would lose enough to make taking the players offer worth it. So yeah, the owners can damn well sit it out, and the players are going to have to have a come to Jesus moment where they realize the only people keeping them from making money is themselves.

So yeah, maybe the NHL isn't asking for their absolute, can't-operate-without-it, red line here. But the facts all indicate that they're fighting for something close. Hell, the facts indicate they might not even be asking for enough at this point - I think it's likely that they offered more than some owners were comfortable with (as is now rumored) because they knew losing games would hurt the tremendous growth momentum they had, and so were okay with operating a little more underwater for a 5 year term to not lose that.

Players, on the other hand, seem to be living on some other planet where 57=50, revenues=profit, their contracts were never subject to the CBA, and they earned everything they got even if they earned more than their team could literally afford to pay them without robbing the owner's personal bank account. The wake up call has been sounding, and pretty soon they'll realize it.

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10-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #182
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Oh, I'm certain as **** that their advisors DON'T know what they're doing. The players already lost this negotiation.

There were $500M between the two proposals a week ago (cumulative over all years). Then the players went out and lost $500M letting games get cancelled (presuming we only have 3/4 of a season at this point). And the league withdrew its best offer. There's no way in hell the league is coming back with 51% in time for the players to make money back that they lost refusing to even negotiate off their best deal (a deal better or equal to what baseball, football AND b-ball give their players!).

The game is now how long does it take for the high school dropout membership of this union to realize they are ****ing themselves with every day they refuse to negotiate off of linkage and 50-50.
So your certain the advisors who get paid for their services and are educated don't know **** but 90% of this board no what they are talking about. I'll side with the advisors. If bob and mike are talking about this and that on this board you can bet as hell it has already been talked about by the PA.

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10-28-2012, 11:58 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Does the KHL have a CBA? I wonder what their revenue spilts are.

Not that the selfish NHL players care, they are over there stealing jobs.
It's way different over there. Teams make most of thier money through sponsorships:

"The KHL business model is different than the NHL's. While the NHL and NHLPA fight primarily over the disposable incomes of North American fans, the KHL funds its operations primarily with sponsorship money – oil, gas, industry."

Most of the ticket prices are way cheap cuz that money isn't really dependant on paying the players.

"Tickets are cheap. To see Malkin play Friday night in Moscow, the most expensive seats were 1,200 rubles – less than 40 bucks. The least expensive tickets were 300 rubles – less than 10 bucks. There were maybe 4,500 fans in the seats."

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10-28-2012, 11:59 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
I am 100% on the players side. I hope they holdout as long as they can. I want teams like Nashville and minni paying those huge bonuses with no revenue coming in. I want to see the winter classic cancelled and see the league lose all that revenue ad most of all I want the small market teams that don't deserve to be there file for bankruptcy and fold or forced to sell, they are the crux of this whole thing. They drag everything thing and everyone else down. I would love nothing more then to see a league with 20 to 24 teams. I honestly hope the players can hold out as long as possible, watch Bettman finally leave. I would also love to see OV, kovalchuk stay in the KHL and give the NHL a big up yours. This for me is the dream outcome. People say the owners will win and they might but if them holding out long enough to force a few non essential teams into bankruptcy then IMHO the PA will have won
20 teams = 33% salary cut for your guys. Probably more, because revenues around the league will drop when there's no national demand, no TV money, and everybody goes back to thinking of the NHL like the cool cousin of Major League Lacrosse. As opposed to a 12% cut that will be more than made up for within 2-3 years, tops.

This is the kind of thinking that's hopefully animating the player's side, because they're on a mission to destroy themselves, and I'm loving it.

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10-28-2012, 12:00 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
So the start of your post is that the players are fighting so they won't lose in future CBAs, but you admit they ended up winning the last one... so why shouldn't they give back here?
As long as they get their current contracts paid in full, but yeah this is about the future.

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10-28-2012, 12:02 PM
  #186
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Yes, the PA comes out massive winners with 120+ jobs lost.
In my ideal world that would be the outcome. There are too many teams that should t be in the league and the sole reason we are in this mess. I side with the players in the hopes of this being the outcome. The league is watered down. Columbus, Phoenix are the watered down teams in the league

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10-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
In my ideal world that would be the outcome. There are too many teams that should t be in the league and the sole reason we are in this mess. I side with the players in the hopes of this being the outcome. The league is watered down. Columbus, Phoenix are the watered down teams in the league
Please keep Columbus out of this -- that has much more to do with the fact that they're an absolutely terrible team.

(Coming from a canadian guy)

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10-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
So your certain the advisors who get paid for their services and are educated don't know **** but 90% of this board no what they are talking about. I'll side with the advisors. If bob and mike are talking about this and that on this board you can bet as hell it has already been talked about by the PA.
Argue my point. Argue that the players still have a viable avenue to make money as opposed to taking the owner's offer a week ago. 50% isn't even on the table anymore. A full season isn't even on the table anymore. They're not going to get as much as they could've gotten a week ago no matter what ****ing happens. And that's bad leadership. Maybe the union bosses know it, but they sure as hell aren't doing anything to show as much. And lastly, no, I don't believe the players know as much as the average poster on here. I listen to them describe the offers on the table with clear factual problems, proposals the I read, and I can tell you they're not well informed.

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10-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #189
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Well, right now the average NHL player actually loses his company money when you factor in his salary. This isn't about janitors or call workers. It's about what can the league afford, and how we get to an agreement on it. The math in this situation all favors owners, AINEC.
The average NHL player loses his company money eh? Interesting take on it. Not sure how that can be backed up....

Remember....the league had a salary cap floor and ceiling. If teams couldn't 'afford' to pay what they were....they didn't have to.

19 out of 30 teams spent to within $5M of the cap. Of the 10 teams that didn't....several are re-building. Then there are those few that simply can't afford it.

The problem is when teams spend near the floor and still lose money. And that isn't a problem with salaries or the CBA....it's a problem with the market. The business simply will not work in that market. 50/50 split or not...not going to work.

Most teams that lose money lose less than $5M a year. Which could EASILY be shaved off their payroll if they wanted to, but they don't. Then there are those teams that make 10, 15, 20, 40, 80 million a year. Pretty healthy it seems.

It's the Columbus' and Phoenix's that lose $15M to $25M a year that are the problem. They aren't the norm or the majority. "the league" can easily afford to truck along under the old CBA....a few teams can't. Instead of moving them, the league will try to lower their costs to help them lose less, while simultaneously helping the rest of the league make even more money.

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10-28-2012, 12:06 PM
  #190
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When emergency workers, teachers, etc. start generating $3.3B in revenue every year....I'm sure their salaries will go up.
How can you compare a free market enterprise with a not for profit socially funded system?

For the sake of learning, I hope emergency workers, teachers, etc. start to generate $3.3B in revenue every year in the area you live in.

Because it will mean if you, your family, and anyone else living in the village want emergency/medical assistance or basic education you will have to pay full season ticket holder prices in advance every year.

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10-28-2012, 12:08 PM
  #191
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Argue my point. Argue that the players still have a viable avenue to make money as opposed to taking the owner's offer a week ago. 50% isn't even on the table anymore. A full season isn't even on the table anymore. They're not going to get as much as they could've gotten a week ago no matter what ****ing happens. And that's bad leadership. Maybe the union bosses know it, but they sure as hell aren't doing anything to show as much. And lastly, no, I don't believe the players know as much as the average poster on here. I listen to them describe the offers on the table with clear factual problems, proposals the I read, and I can tell you they're not well informed.
BAD LEADERSHIP?!!?! In what labour negotiations do you get locked out and say "Every offer we counter or reject...the other side says they will only get worse. Krikey! We better sign one of these things ASAP!"

Remember that first offer by the league? Should the PA have accepted that? Since it'll "only get worse from here" right?

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10-28-2012, 12:09 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by mike14 View Post
Have the NHL owners reached into his bank account and taken 25% of his wage?

They may have reduced his ability to earn money in the future but I seriously doubt they've taken money from him, thus he had said something incorrect
I was talking about the hard work aspect. Which is what I quoted and talked about in my post.

Pay attention.

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10-28-2012, 12:10 PM
  #193
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How can you compare a free market enterprise with a not for profit socially funded system?

For the sake of learning, I hope emergency workers, teachers, etc. start to generate $3.3B in revenue every year in the area you live in.

Because it will mean if you, your family, and anyone else living in the village want emergency/medical assistance or basic education you will have to pay full season ticket holder prices in advance every year.
I was pointing out how foolish it was to make the comparison....because firefighters "deserve it" more.

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10-28-2012, 12:12 PM
  #194
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The average NHL player loses his company money eh? Interesting take on it. Not sure how that can be backed up....
By finishing quoting the sentence that I wrote: "When you factor in his salary." It's as simple as "the median team is losing money." So yes, more than half of all NHL players are costing their teams so much that the team literally can't afford to pay them without taking money out of the owner's personal (non-NHL-related) checking account. That's not making millions of dollars for your employer. That's costing your employer, net. Period.

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10-28-2012, 12:12 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
In my ideal world that would be the outcome. There are too many teams that should t be in the league and the sole reason we are in this mess. I side with the players in the hopes of this being the outcome. The league is watered down. Columbus, Phoenix are the watered down teams in the league
I can assure you the players are in favor of expansion rather than contraction.

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10-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by spudnick View Post
I am 100% on the players side. I hope they holdout as long as they can. I want teams like Nashville and minni paying those huge bonuses with no revenue coming in. I want to see the winter classic cancelled and see the league lose all that revenue ad most of all I want the small market teams that don't deserve to be there file for bankruptcy and fold or forced to sell, they are the crux of this whole thing. They drag everything thing and everyone else down. I would love nothing more then to see a league with 20 to 24 teams. I honestly hope the players can hold out as long as possible, watch Bettman finally leave. I would also love to see OV, kovalchuk stay in the KHL and give the NHL a big up yours. This for me is the dream outcome. People say the owners will win and they might but if them holding out long enough to force a few non essential teams into bankruptcy then IMHO the PA will have won
Wow, just wow...gotta feeling the PA really doesn't want your support...

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10-28-2012, 12:14 PM
  #197
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So the start of your post is that the players are fighting so they won't lose in future CBAs, but you admit they ended up winning the last one... so why shouldn't they give back here?
They proposed going to a 50/50 split. They are willing to give back.

And they lost the last one....big time. Revenues grew and made up for the huge paycut they took. Everyone should be happy. Owners aren't though...weird.

So when they give back this time (again)....what are the odds in 6 years they'll be asked to give back again? And again. And again.

It's not about splitting the pie differently....it's about how much differently it gets split compared to how it currently is.

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10-28-2012, 12:15 PM
  #198
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Do you think any of the players who have been tweeting about their hard work and sacrifice would trade places with any of these fireman or policemen?

Do you think they would trade places with any office wage slave? Do they really think they work harder and are more deserving than a farmer or a restaurant or other small business owner who works hard but whose financial payoff is uncertain?

How about AHL players who have probably worked just as hard and in some cases have the same level of skill as a 4th line player but never got the chance to play in the NHL for one reason or another ? Just one season with an NHL pay cheque for these guys is the jackpot compared to the AHL

Unfortunately for them it is just this divorce from reality which, along with their sense of entitlement that makes them so easily led down the garden path.
Sounds like you live in a Karl Marx's fantasy world. They have a talent, they are paid according to that talent. Why can't an athlete talk about how hard they work? Is hard work exclusive blue collar workers? You're acting like these guys are socialites.

They've dedicated their lives to the game, and bust their ass's to get to where they are in life.

They aren't trust fund babies.

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10-28-2012, 12:16 PM
  #199
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Everytime i see a player tweet it just shows that they're living in a fantasy land.

What is this 25% logan is referring to? I didn't know a request/offer for a 12%(give or take a %) cut equaled 25%.

What I'm wondering is what is the NHLPA's plan because as far as I see it:

If they want an actual hockey season this year, they cannot offer delinkage. It will not be accepted at all this year. Maybe during a 2nd lockout, but by then it's not even worth it.

They attack the cap and the year is lost, they offer anything but 50-51%(52% if they offer now) for the majority of the years and the offer wont be accepted.

So essentially, if they want hockey, they need to offer a direct response to the owners. Honestly who cares about a 10% cut(plus the games they already lost) it's miniscule in the long-term and meaningless when you count in long-term growth. Or you know they could just offer a gradual linked drop so they hardly lose any money.

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10-28-2012, 12:17 PM
  #200
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I can assure you the players are in favor of expansion rather than contraction.
That's where I disagree with the players.

Contraction is in the best interest of the league. Either that or relocation.

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