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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Yes 155 71.43%
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Old
10-29-2012, 11:23 PM
  #351
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Remember when JFJ acquired and filled his post lockout teams with former mostly Top 10 picks in previous drafts?

Eric Lindros - (round 1 #1 overall 1991 NHL Entry Draft)
Jason Allison - (round 1 #17 overall 1993 NHL Entry Draft)
Jeff O'Neal - (round 1 #5 overall 1994 NHL Entry Draft)
Luke Richardson - (round 1 #7 overall 1987 NHL Entry Draft)
Mark Bell - (round 1 #8 overall 1998 NHL Entry Draft)
Boyd Devereaux - (round 1 #6 overall 1996 NHL Entry Draft)
Chad Kilger - (round 1 #4 overall 1995 NHL Entry Draft)

Wow look at all those high picks !!!! No GM had acquired more former 1st rounders during that time 2005-2007.

PS.. That doesn't even include pre-lockout HHOF players like Brian Leetch and Ron Francis etc etc in JFJ body of work collecting former 1st rounders.
I fail to see what you are trying to say here.

I would think that you should be able to tell the difference between tring for a multi concussed LIndros and a Dion Phaneuf.

Mark Bell might be the same as taking a chance on Lupul but otherwise there is nothing close to the young players Burke has brought in?

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10-29-2012, 11:25 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
What a desperate and frustrating stance you're taking.

Everything good Burke has done is a "direct result of the Kessel trade".
It's just amazing that people can delude themselves into thinking that.

It's like they think if the Kessel trade didn't happen, NO other trades/signings would have happened.

"I'd prefer Kessel with Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, and Reilly than Seguin, Hamilton and NO ONE ELSE".
Other trades/signings would OF COURSE have happened. Some great, some terrible.
Okay, but if he plans on rebuilding, why would he sign Beachemin? Also, even if we did, what makes you think we end up dealing him for Lupul and Gardiner?

We likely wouldn't have gotten Rielly either.

Also, what stance? This was like my first comment, and was simply that if we didn't do the Kessel trade, and decided to rebuild, we likely would have not signed Beuachemin

Your essentially doing what you think everyone else is doing, but on the other side of things.

All we can compare is Kessel and Seguin at this point.

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:26 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Edmonton did it.
And their GM doesn't make as much money as ours...
Or spend as much on scouting, or as much on their front office.
Why do you even need a scouting staff if you're continually going to pick #1 overall? They could have saved a crap load of money and fired those guys 4 years ago. And even with all their talent, they'll still be bottom feeders when the season starts up again.

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10-29-2012, 11:26 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Ok.... But its more logical to look at players who have never played an NHL game and draft picks that we never had and assume that these players are destined for greatness?????

Again, this is the point that I am making. The players that toronto has picked have had success.

Dion Phaneuf was rated higher by THN than MALKIN! Kessel was picked by 10 gms over CROSBY in a 2005 poll, Lupul was a superstar when he scored 4 goals in a playoff game... JVR was untouchable when he dominated a playoff series.

Now these players are no longer shiny toys, but are still excellent.
Of course people look at draft picks as cant miss superstars that they will love for ever and ever, but my characterization is unrealistic? at least these players have achieved what I said they have, instead of just assuming that some random players would be better..

Again, please go through 2009-2012 first rounds and show me what teams have done better....
Cool.

I like the way you laid that out.

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10-29-2012, 11:27 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I was not the individual who tried to slant the Kessel deal with other names....yet I'm the one you replied to.

I simply point out that the other players not involved in the Kessel trade can not be used to tip the balance to justify the trade.

You go ahead and defend that!
I'm not defending anything, just pointing out that your comparison is just as flawed.

You'll also notice that before that, I advised him of why I do not use that argument.

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10-29-2012, 11:29 PM
  #356
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The Kessel trade was for TWO FIRSTS AND A SECOND. No more no less. Where these other names are coming from is beyond me. It consisted of:

Tyler Seguin (2nd Overall)
Dougie Hamilton (9th Overall)
Jared Knight (32nd Overall)

The only argument you can make in regards to this trade is: DID THE ADDITION OF PHIL KESSEL MAKE THE TEAM BETTER/OR WORSE?

If his inclusion made the team better: Then you may suggest we could have drafted:

HALL
RNH
Yakupov

If the addition of Phil Kessel made the team worse - THEN WHY IN THE **** DID WE SIGN HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

See Its easy to spin The Kessel trade!

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10-29-2012, 11:29 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by keonsbitterness View Post
Sure, Burke can be fired at any time, but a long-term extension, for example, would greatly decrease that likelihood.

An extension can mean a commitment by ownership, or it can mean what amounts to severance pay if things don't work out.
That worked out real well for Wilson.

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10-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Cool.

I like the way you laid that out.
LOL Kessel was never rated higher then Crosby in any GM eyes. Never mind 10 of them.

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10-29-2012, 11:31 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
And yet you fail to see how your argument is 100% correct in the opposite view.

If Hamilton were a Leafs Prospect he would be crap. It would also be plastered everywhere. Comparisons to 3rd pairing D-men arouind hte league would choke the main boards.

You need to get past this kind of thinking to have a serious debate.
If your post was correct then everybody would be saying Reilly is a bust but i have never seen that anywhere .

Maybe you should link the posts to prove your opinion .

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10-29-2012, 11:34 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
He is under contract for another 2 years.

Sure he screwed up, but give him the 2 years to correct his mistakes.

If in 2 year the Leafs are not competitive he hasn't earned an extension.
Unless you said BUrke could never turn this team into a playoff team in 3.75 years how are you right?

Those who did see it was going to take a lot longer that 3.75 years seem to like the way Burke has the Team headed and want to keep him.

I want to Extend him. Now. For 3 years.

If you thought he could do what he said he wantd to do then it is you who is deluded/hoodwinked/mistaken I think I can finally begin to understand your anger.

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:35 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
That worked out real well for Wilson.
Maybe the new guys in charge are not in the mood to give Burke a 7 figure going away present like Burkie did for his num 1 star who was also his bestest buddy .


Last edited by hotpaws: 10-29-2012 at 11:40 PM.
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Old
10-29-2012, 11:35 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
LOL Kessel was never rated higher then Crosby in any GM eyes. Never mind 10 of them.
Kessel ws ranked #1 in his draft early on.

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10-29-2012, 11:37 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
If your post was correct then everybody would be saying Reilly is a bust but i have never seen that anywhere .

Maybe you should link the posts to prove your opinion .
Hamilton is not a top 5 pick and he didn't make the jump to the NHL at 18 so he would be a bust like Kadri.

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10-29-2012, 11:38 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
That's your opinion and i think i'll dig up your old thread of how great our youth/prospects were during our 29th place finish to illustrate how biased your your opinion is .

But lets be honest for a second shall we . You couldn't give **** about Burke or the team or any prospect we may have because 90% of all your posts are just trying to spin the Kessel trade .

The great thing is you'll get to see what that deal cost us 6 times a year for the next 15 or so years . So if i was you i'd let it go before it burns you up inside and leaves you an empty shell .
Umm Im not sure what thread that was? I have always said I would take proven young stars over question marks.... I always thought Kessel would be a top scorer in the league and I was proven right..... I would argue against people who said he would be a 20/40 guy without savard...... I remember saying that Seguin had a bad year and if he was a leaf player he would have been torn to peices, and I still believe that, he has turned into a 60 pt player now, and good for him..... In fact Seguin is developing similar to Kessel, other than the whole cancer thing... Even if they turn out similar, or IF seguin becomes slightly better.... Im a bird in the hand kind of guy.

Contrary to what you may believe, I am not obsessed with the Kessel trade. I tend to read more than post here, but I do think I spend less time here than you do. Which is fine. i tend to just read people's opinions, but only when I think they are ridiculous do I feel compelled to post. The most common threads that show a complete and utter disregard for logic are the Kessel trade, and the burke bashing that is solely based on how the team would be sooo much better if he just blew it up and tanked. I believe that it is ridiculous that people assume that the season would turn out the same one, and I also think it is ridiculous here in general that prospects are automatically superstars without flaws, injuries, defensive gaps and alway go up up up. You can never please these people because Kessel has to compete with an imaginary trajectory or future that may not exist, and when the real does not live up to the hype kessel is already gone so who cares.....

I dont have a problem with specific comments on Burkes moves ie: I think it was a mistake to resign liles and I would have traded Mac for that first he promised last year, just because of the wing depth and kadri needing a shot..... When people post on these views i tend not to comment as much because at least they show logic.

But I do think its funny that you believe I am obsessed with the Kessel trade... Werent you the one who specifically joined in Nov 2009 to rant about Burke trading picks??? I guess the difference between us is you are pissed about the trade where I get infuriated by the whining and terrible logic that still haunts the board 3 years and a top 6 scorer later....

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10-29-2012, 11:38 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Unless you said BUrke could never turn this team into a playoff team in 3.75 years how are you right?

Those who did see it was going to take a lot longer that 3.75 years seem to like the way Burke has the Team headed and want to keep him.

I want to Extend him. Now. For 3 years.

If you thought he could do what he said he wantd to do then it is you who is deluded/hoodwinked/mistaken I think I can finally begin to understand your anger.
Forget about just building a playoff team , the Almighty Burke said he could build a cup contender in under 5 years .

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10-29-2012, 11:39 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Hamilton is not a top 5 pick and he didn't make the jump to the NHL at 18 so he would be a bust like Kadri.
I'm asking you to link the posts where people are saying Reilly is a bust and if you can't then keep you foolish statements to yourself .

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10-29-2012, 11:40 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
They focused more on the 1st. overall forwards, so they built differently, but how does that make the Leafs focus on defense correct?
It's not about which areas the team chooses to improve first. It's about going against what sports and any sort of competition should be about (ie: trying your hardest to win). Too bad there isn't a lower league where teams could be relegated to, instead of getting rewarded for sucking.

Leafs' building from net out approach most likely would have been fine if it wasn't for Rotten Ronnie's run & gun.

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10-29-2012, 11:40 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
We also have to remember than an extension means absolutely nothing really.
Burke could in theory be fired at any time.
Whoa....

Are like you catching on to the idea of extending Burke RIGHT NOW??

It's only money to MLSE. (Our MONEY)

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10-29-2012, 11:42 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
If your post was correct then everybody would be saying Reilly is a bust but i have never seen that anywhere .

Maybe you should link the posts to prove your opinion .
I find that Burke Supporters as well as Burke haters all seem to be excited about Rielly.


I have not seen on anti Burke poster say anything negative about Gards as he appears to be a real talent. So his argument does not hold water.

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10-29-2012, 11:48 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm asking you to link the posts where people are saying Reilly is a bust and if you can't then keep you foolish statements to yourself .
I am not saying anything about Rielly.

I am saying people could just as easiloy be calling Hamilton a bust as they are Kadri.

Who's to Say Hamilton doesn't win a spot on the leafs like schenn did?

Ruined Schenn might have ruined Hamilton too.

Don't try to trap me in fantasy land.

The cheap defense Lawyer tricks employed by the anti Burke sect are getting tiresome.

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10-29-2012, 11:50 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
But they're going to actually WIN in the near future.
Yeah, just as soon as they start getting some D, goaltending, grit, offensive depth beyond the first line (even with our MIA secondary scoring, we still outscored them last season), and of course some veteran leadership. Should be any day now... just make sure you don't hold your breath waiting for it.

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10-29-2012, 11:52 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I find that Burke Supporters as well as Burke haters all seem to be excited about Rielly.


I have not seen on anti Burke poster say anything negative about Gards as he appears to be a real talent. So his argument does not hold water.
Ya D-man, but people do hate on Kadri, Colborne and formerly Schenn.

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10-29-2012, 11:52 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I find that Burke Supporters as well as Burke haters all seem to be excited about Rielly.


I have not seen on anti Burke poster say anything negative about Gards as he appears to be a real talent. So his argument does not hold water.
Don't start backtracking now , you said if Hamilton was our prospect everyone would be saying he was a bust so why doesn't your same logic hold true for Reilly ?

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10-29-2012, 11:52 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I was not the individual who tried to slant the Kessel deal with other names....yet I'm the one you replied to.

I simply point out that the other players not involved in the Kessel trade can not be used to tip the balance to justify the trade.

You go ahead and defend that!
1.) The kessel deal was for 2 picks that were 82 and 164 games and numerous deals later. You have no idea how the leafs would have ended up (ie sign cammy and win 2 games now you are 4th and pick nino or something). The lottery might have been different etc. We see this every year. In 2006 the baby leafs and aubin went on a miracle run. Devereaux scores a hattrick and bumps toronto from 5th to 7th....

You dont know how it would have went. Really kessel is the only known player in the deal. The leafs could have ended up with Schiefle and Nino.....

But... More importantly

Here is the problem. Trades dont exist in a vaccum. And You cannot judge burke entirely based on the one trade as they all affect each other. ie If burke is tanking, and he talks to his old friend beauch.... do you think he says, come to toronto, we are going to suck for a few years.... More likely he sold francois on his quick fix pitch, using him as a horse on D Just like he did in anaheim. Without burke we dont get beauch. More importantly his relationship was to sell beauch back to his team for lupul and Gardiner, who let him go for free?

Secondly, If you are tanking, and you are in second last, everything is going as planned. Now you don't try to change the chemistry... Now you dont get Dion.

Third: Kaberle according to all media was worth a 2nd rounder, Burke gets Colborne, 1st and liles for him......


you can argue the logic all you want and thats fine. This isnt about Kessel. This is about burkes overall tenure and should he stay. In my mind if you want to talk about his overall tenure, you have to talk about his overall tenure...... All of the youth he has gathered is a part of that and in my mind, vastly out weighs what he gave up....

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10-29-2012, 11:53 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm asking you to link the posts where people are saying Reilly is a bust and if you can't then keep you foolish statements to yourself .
YOu show me where I said I Reilly was a bust?

You're the one making foolish statements.

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