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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

View Poll Results: Ye or Na
Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
Voters: 217. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-29-2012, 11:55 PM
  #376
The Blue Devil
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
LOL Kessel was never rated higher then Crosby in any GM eyes. Never mind 10 of them.
I don't know about GM's, but there were scouts that said he was comparable to Crosby at one point.

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10-29-2012, 11:56 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
The Kessel trade was for TWO FIRSTS AND A SECOND. No more no less. Where these other names are coming from is beyond me. It consisted of:

Tyler Seguin (2nd Overall)
Dougie Hamilton (9th Overall)
Jared Knight (32nd Overall)

The only argument you can make in regards to this trade is: DID THE ADDITION OF PHIL KESSEL MAKE THE TEAM BETTER/OR WORSE?

If his inclusion made the team better: Then you may suggest we could have drafted:

HALL
RNH
Yakupov

If the addition of Phil Kessel made the team worse - THEN WHY IN THE **** DID WE SIGN HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

See Its easy to spin The Kessel trade!
Terrible logic.
he missed the first 12 games. The leafs lost the first 8 of them.
Second. in 2006 the leafs lost sundin, kaberle, mcCabe to injury and road Aubin to an 11 game win streak.... Does that mean Harrison Cola, wellwood et al were better?

Again this is not about kessel, it is about burke, and his success. Since the tankers want youth and failure, they should be happy.

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10-29-2012, 11:58 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
I don't know about GM's, but there were scouts that said he was comparable to Crosby at one point.
At the 2005 draft they announced a poll of who would be taken 1 overall if kessel was born a month earlier and 10/30 picked kessel. Look it up.

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10-29-2012, 11:59 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think a huge part of the problem is his arrogance.

Because of my age I know it doesn't have to take 5 years blah blah blah.

Well, when you open your mouth and pound your chest you better be able to deliver.

I thought the Kessel trade was premature, it just didn't make sense for a team that JFj had identified 2-3 year prior as being due for a rebuild to make that trade.

I'm going to give Kessel the opportunity to become a 200 foot player before I declare. We know just putting up personal points doesn't make a team a winner, but there is no reason he can't be a positive player on the ice beyond putting up empty calories.

IMO the team would have performed much better if arrogance hadn't got the better of him again, and he had jettisoned Wilson before the last season of damage.
So what if it didn't go as planned.

So he is full of ****?
He is full of **** and stands behind it.

Sounds just like the Mayor.

It's what it takes to make it in this town.

He has made several good moves and the best people to replace him available are already on staff. So why not keep the guy with the inside contacts in the head office.

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10-30-2012, 12:00 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
LOL Kessel was never rated higher then Crosby in any GM eyes. Never mind 10 of them.
Yes he was... 2005 draft poll look it up

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10-30-2012, 12:02 AM
  #381
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Ya D-man, but people do hate on Kadri, Colborne and formerly Schenn.
Ask your self one question here: Has Gardiner disappointed anyone?

IMHO Colborne is over rated on this board. He has done nothing thus far to warrant to be thought of as a top prospect. Same goes for Ashton. Until they prove that they are top prospects my opinion will not change.

Schenn was Wilson's whipping boy and too many people took his word as gospel....Schenn will be fine. Kadri is in that same boat.....the Leafs management picks on him so what do you expect. Kadri will be a good NHL player, but I fear it will not be for the Leafs.

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10-30-2012, 12:02 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
How about you just look at the end result after four years of bottom 10 finishes?
5th last.

If, for four years, Burke threw everything into winning right away, we'd at least be making the playoffs by now.
If, for four years, Burke threw everything into a proper rebuild, we'd have MUCH better prospects by now.

He tried the "somewhere in the middle" approach, and it left us underwhelming from top to bottom.
Again show me a team that has added more youth in a proper rebuild from 2009-2012. You keep suggesting that it is a sure thing, but you dont show one that has done it.....

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10-30-2012, 12:03 AM
  #383
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Umm Im not sure what thread that was? I have always said I would take proven young stars over question marks.... I always thought Kessel would be a top scorer in the league and I was proven right..... I would argue against people who said he would be a 20/40 guy without savard......

I remember saying that Seguin had a bad year and if he was a leaf player he would have been torn to peices, and I still believe that, he has turned into a 60 pt player now, and good for him..... In fact Seguin is developing similar to Kessel, other than the whole cancer thing... Even if they turn out similar, or IF seguin becomes slightly better.... Im a bird in the hand kind of guy.

Contrary to what you may believe, I am not obsessed with the Kessel trade. I tend to read more than post here, but I do think I spend less time here than you do. Which is fine. i tend to just read people's opinions, but only when I think they are ridiculous do I feel compelled to post. The most common threads that show a complete and utter disregard for logic are the Kessel trade, and the burke bashing that is solely based on how the team would be sooo much better if he just blew it up and tanked. I believe that it is ridiculous that people assume that the season would turn out the same one, and I also think it is ridiculous here in general that prospects are automatically superstars without flaws, injuries, defensive gaps and alway go up up up. You can never please these people because Kessel has to compete with an imaginary trajectory or future that may not exist, and when the real does not live up to the hype kessel is already gone so who cares.....

I dont have a problem with specific comments on Burkes moves ie: I think it was a mistake to resign liles and I would have traded Mac for that first he promised last year, just because of the wing depth and kadri needing a shot..... When people post on these views i tend not to comment as much because at least they show logic.

But I do think its funny that you believe I am obsessed with the Kessel trade... Werent you the one who specifically joined in Nov 2009 to rant about Burke trading picks??? I guess the difference between us is you are pissed about the trade where I get infuriated by the whining and terrible logic that still haunts the board 3 years and a top 6 scorer later....
If you can't remember your own threads then you should do a search to refresh your memory .

So by your logic we should trade every pick we have because one bad year and everyone will rip them to pieces and ruin there development . Do you actually believe half the crap you post ?

I find it ridiculous that you keep posting that had Burke not followed his path every other path would have turned out worse .

You are obsessed with Kessel and have tried to spin the trade more ways than i can remember . The sad part is i don't need to knock Kessel or bring in multiple other senerios to justify why i think we grossly overpaid for him but for some reason you feel the need to keep inventing excuses to justify the deal even though you keep saying you think Kessel is the better player .

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10-30-2012, 12:03 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
At the 2005 draft they announced a poll of who would be taken 1 overall if kessel was born a month earlier and 10/30 picked kessel. Look it up.
I'm not doubting it. I was just stating what I knew.

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10-30-2012, 12:05 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Forget about just building a playoff team , the Almighty Burke said he could build a cup contender in under 5 years .
So he was wrong. So What?

Do you not think this team is closer to the path of a Cup Winner than it was when he took over?

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10-30-2012, 12:07 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
If you can't remember your own threads then you should do a search to refresh your memory .

So by your logic we should trade every pick we have because one bad year and everyone will rip them to pieces and ruin there development . Do you actually believe half the crap you post ?

I find it ridiculous that you keep posting that had Burke not followed his path every other path would have turned out worse .

You are obsessed with Kessel and have tried to spin the trade more ways than i can remember . The sad part is i don't need to knock Kessel or bring in multiple other senerios to justify why i think we grossly overpaid for him but for some reason you feel the need to keep inventing excuses to justify the deal even though you keep saying you think Kessel is the better player .

Didn't you bring up kessel?

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10-30-2012, 12:07 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
What a desperate and frustrating stance you're taking.

Everything good Burke has done is a "direct result of the Kessel trade".
It's just amazing that people can delude themselves into thinking that.

It's like they think if the Kessel trade didn't happen, NO other trades/signings would have happened.

"I'd prefer Kessel with Phaneuf, Lupul, Gardiner, and Reilly than Seguin, Hamilton and NO ONE ELSE".
Other trades/signings would OF COURSE have happened. Some great, some terrible.
No one is saying it is a direct result of the Kessel trade. Thats the point, the kessel trade is a direct result of burke and his philosophies. Burke is the one who landed all of these players..... You have to include them, because that is what he did. The young "players" he gave up were picks that basically turned into the kessel deal.

We could go on all day about 2nd and third round picks and stalberg and signing bozak etc... but HF is concerned with first rounders, thats why I brought up first rounders. Thats what people wanted. Suck to get high first rounders and trade dead weight for low first rounders.
If you want to add in bozak mac, etc.... It will take all day, but still make toronto look better, because Burke has made the team much better in terms of young talent.

remember THIS IS ABOUT BURKES PERFORMANCE NOT THE KESSEL DEAL, which is a small part of his overall tenure.

You cant just assume that another GM would have kept the picks and somehow got gardiner dion lupul et al...

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10-30-2012, 12:09 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
And yet you fail to see how your argument is 100% correct in the opposite view.

If Hamilton were a Leafs Prospect he would be crap. It would also be plastered everywhere. Comparisons to 3rd pairing D-men arouind hte league would choke the main boards.
You need to get past this kind of thinking to have a serious debate.
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YOu show me where I said I Reilly was a bust?

You're the one making foolish statements.
I'm using your logic to ask why these forums arn't saying that Reilly is a bust considering you believe that if Hamilton was our prospect everyone would be saying he was a bust .

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10-30-2012, 12:10 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
If you can't remember your own threads then you should do a search to refresh your memory .

So by your logic we should trade every pick we have because one bad year and everyone will rip them to pieces and ruin there development . Do you actually believe half the crap you post ?

I find it ridiculous that you keep posting that had Burke not followed his path every other path would have turned out worse .

You are obsessed with Kessel and have tried to spin the trade more ways than i can remember . The sad part is i don't need to knock Kessel or bring in multiple other senerios to justify why i think we grossly overpaid for him but for some reason you feel the need to keep inventing excuses to justify the deal even though you keep saying you think Kessel is the better player .
Again, when did I bring up kessel? wasnt that you? isnt it always you? didnt you start a whole account for the sole purpose of bashing the kessel deal? Didnt you sign up in nov 2009?

For the 1000th time I am not saying that every move he has made is perfect or this is the only correct path.... but I do think that it is working, and it is all we have to go on. All we know is what did happen, and a small number of infinite possbilities of what could have happened. I just hate that people act like they know exactly how their path would have worked out.

Again, please show me how many of these tanking teams have added more quality youth from 2009 to 2012..... Enlighten me, again.....

PS he was the 6th highest scorer in the nhl was like top 3 until he got injured.... What do I have to justify???


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10-30-2012, 12:12 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Ask your self one question here: Has Gardiner disappointed anyone?

IMHO Colborne is over rated on this board. He has done nothing thus far to warrant to be thought of as a top prospect. Same goes for Ashton. Until they prove that they are top prospects my opinion will not change.

Schenn was Wilson's whipping boy and too many people took his word as gospel....Schenn will be fine. Kadri is in that same boat.....the Leafs management picks on him so what do you expect. Kadri will be a good NHL player, but I fear it will not be for the Leafs.
And which name should I put Hamilton in for?

He isn't a top 5 and he didn't make the team as an 18yr old. He's a bust. Or he would be according to the Anti Burke people.

but screw this hypothetical crap.

if you don't think burke should be kept who is better that you want to take over?

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10-30-2012, 12:13 AM
  #391
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Again show me a team that has added more youth in a proper rebuild from 2009-2012. You keep suggesting that it is a sure thing, but you dont show one that has done it.....
It's not about quantity it's about quality and Burke hasn't added enough for 4 bottom place finishes .

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10-30-2012, 12:14 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I'm using your logic to ask why these forums arn't saying that Reilly is a bust considering you believe that if Hamilton was our prospect everyone would be saying he was a bust .
Hilarious that when you ara asked to prove I said Rielly was a bust you can't even produce a quote where I said Rielly's name.

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10-30-2012, 12:17 AM
  #393
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
It's not about quantity it's about quality and Burke hasn't added enough for 4 bottom place finishes .
Which team wins
1 Wayne Gretzky
or
6 Al Iafrate

Don't underrate Quantity.

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10-30-2012, 12:22 AM
  #394
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Yes he was... 2005 draft poll look it up

Here is TSN top 30 draft list for 2005

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7006

Kessel was not on the list!

Central scouting final list North American Skaters .....

http://cdn.nhl.com/futures/cssrankin.../naskaters.pdf

Again no Kessel.

Yet you want me to believe that Kessel was in the eyes of 10 NHL GM better than Crosby.

Do you know why he is not listed? He was not draft eligible in the 2005 draft and yet he went 5th to Boston the following year....which in the eyes of many GM at the time was a risk. His stock fell in his draft year as his combine and Q and A with teams did not go that well.

If you want to use information in these threads make sure it is relevant.

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10-30-2012, 12:22 AM
  #395
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It's not about quantity it's about quality and Burke hasn't added enough for 4 bottom place finishes .
Again, pick some teams and we will discuss tomorrow. Who has added more.... If it was possible for toronto, there should be more. Its easy to say well he should have done better, but so should other dwellers too right?

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10-30-2012, 12:26 AM
  #396
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I'm using your logic to ask why these forums arn't saying that Reilly is a bust considering you believe that if Hamilton was our prospect everyone would be saying he was a bust .
Reilly was just drafted while Hamilton was Drafted 2 years ago.

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10-30-2012, 12:26 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Here is TSN top 30 draft list for 2005

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7006

Kessel was not on the list!

Central scouting final list North American Skaters .....

http://cdn.nhl.com/futures/cssrankin.../naskaters.pdf

Again no Kessel.

Yet you want me to believe that Kessel was in the eyes of 10 NHL GM better than Crosby.

Do you know why he is not listed? He was not draft eligible in the 2005 draft and yet he went 5th to Boston the following year....which in the eyes of many GM at the time was a risk. His stock fell in his draft year as his combine and Q and A with teams did not go that well.

If you want to use information in these threads make sure it is relevant.
Ok crosby is canadian born august 87. Kessel is american born october 87. Same year, but get put in different drafts due to cut off. The whole time they were young Kessel was being compared to crosby. Hell he was even the "american crosby".

They did a poll during the lockout that IF Kessel was in the same draft who would you pick.... Crosby won 20-10. It was on tsn, it was on the draft. (how old are you? did you watch it?). They have done similar polls with tavares and stamkos and I believe maybe even hall.....

Thats the whole point, lots of draft picks get built up, and dont live up to their hype. We automatically assume that any player the leafs dont draft will, and any they do wont..... The players we have added are real and have real accomplishments. Burke has added more proven quality youth....

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10-30-2012, 12:27 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Here is TSN top 30 draft list for 2005

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7006

Kessel was not on the list!

Central scouting final list North American Skaters .....

http://cdn.nhl.com/futures/cssrankin.../naskaters.pdf

Again no Kessel.

Yet you want me to believe that Kessel was in the eyes of 10 NHL GM better than Crosby.

Do you know why he is not listed? He was not draft eligible in the 2005 draft and yet he went 5th to Boston the following year....which in the eyes of many GM at the time was a risk. His stock fell in his draft year as his combine and Q and A with teams did not go that well.

If you want to use information in these threads make sure it is relevant.
The poll he was talking about was based on the premise of Kessel being draft eligable in 2005.

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10-30-2012, 12:31 AM
  #399
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Again, when did I bring up kessel? wasnt that you? isnt it always you? didnt you start a whole account for the sole purpose of bashing the kessel deal? Didnt you sign up in nov 2009?

For the 1000th time I am not saying that every move he has made is perfect or this is the only correct path.... but I do think that it is working, and it is all we have to go on. All we know is what did happen, and a small number of infinite possbilities of what could have happened. I just hate that people act like they know exactly how their path would have worked out.

Again, please show me how many of these tanking teams have added more quality youth from 2009 to 2012..... Enlighten me, again.....
When i joined we were headed for a 29th place finish and the talk of the day was all about the picks . I didn't join to bash the Kessel deal and i post about many other topics unlike yourself .

The problem is you ignore every probable possibilty to defend Burke and the PK deal . For example you were defending picking up Gerber by saying there was absolutly no way we could ever know that his addition cost us a higher place in the standings when odds are hugely stacked in favour of him costing us at least the 5th overall if not the 4th pick in that draft .

Of course the tanking path is adding quality prospects and working ( when you keep the picks ) why wouldn't it , a quality prospect is the exact reward for finishing in the toilet . There is no other reward .

Also we are a tanking team even if Burke is trying to win . The guy has done nothing but tank and only a hot streak by Reims saved Burke the from 3 lottery place finishes in his 3 full seasons as GM .

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10-30-2012, 12:32 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Here is TSN top 30 draft list for 2005

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7006

Kessel was not on the list!

Central scouting final list North American Skaters .....

http://cdn.nhl.com/futures/cssrankin.../naskaters.pdf

Again no Kessel.

Yet you want me to believe that Kessel was in the eyes of 10 NHL GM better than Crosby.

Do you know why he is not listed? He was not draft eligible in the 2005 draft and yet he went 5th to Boston the following year....which in the eyes of many GM at the time was a risk. His stock fell in his draft year as his combine and Q and A with teams did not go that well.

If you want to use information in these threads make sure it is relevant.
YA he might not be on those lists because he wasn't draft eligible until 2006.

so that must show that he was younger than Crosby when the comparisons were getting made.

Wow.

So he went from #1 to #5 because of his fat % and bad interviews?

But other wise he was #1 in the draft?

Now we know he is no Crosby, but he sure is elite.

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