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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-30-2012, 12:34 AM
  #401
hotpaws
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Hilarious that when you ara asked to prove I said Rielly was a bust you can't even produce a quote where I said Rielly's name.
It's hilarious that i ever tried having a discussion with you , i'll never allow myself to do that again .

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10-30-2012, 12:38 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Ok crosby is canadian born august 87. Kessel is american born october 87. Same year, but get put in different drafts due to cut off. The whole time they were young Kessel was being compared to crosby.

They did a poll during the lockout that IF Kessel was in the same draft who would you pick.... Crosby won 20-10. It was on tsn, it was on the draft. (how old are you? did you watch it?).

Thats the whole point, lots of draft picks get built up, and dont live up to their hype. We automatically assume that any player the leafs dont draft will, and any they do wont..... The players we have added are real and have real accomplishments. Burke has added more proven quality youth....
Kessel vs Crosby.....I sure would not want to be the GM who choose Kessel over Crosby.

As for my age.....likely been on the green side of this earth longer then you....but that has little to do with nonsense posted in this thread.

We have added some pieces that we can use going forward but not as many as you think. We need to add some quality pieces in key positions if we are ever going to be a Cup contender.

The problem is that teams are not in the habit of trading Key pieces that often and those are the players that get you to the cup.

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10-30-2012, 12:38 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
When i joined we were headed for a 29th place finish and the talk of the day was all about the picks . I didn't join to bash the Kessel deal and i post about many other topics unlike yourself .

The problem is you ignore every probable possibilty to defend Burke and the PK deal . For example you were defending picking up Gerber by saying there was absolutly no way we could ever know that his addition cost us a higher place in the standings when odds are hugely stacked in favour of him costing us at least the 5th overall if not the 4th pick in that draft .

Of course the tanking path is adding quality prospects and working ( when you keep the picks ) why wouldn't it , a quality prospect is the exact reward for finishing in the toilet . There is no other reward .

Also we are a tanking team even if Burke is trying to win . The guy has done nothing but tank and only a hot streak by Reims saved Burke the from 3 lottery place finishes in his 3 full seasons as GM .
Again just like before gerber had a similar record to the other goalies that year. Boyd devereaux cost the 5th pick with a hat trick.... I was there I watched it. I also watched Aubin ride an 11 game wave with sundin on the shelf... you cannot predict streaks. The leafs have went on late season runs regardless of personel. It is just stupid to say you know how it would have turned out without a goalie who had the same win percentage as the rest....

Again for the millionth time, show me a team that has added more quality young first round talent during his tenure. You have argued this for years. Why not point to a tanking team and say that team has added more and better......Shouldnt it be easy?

Thats the frustrating part about your posts. You have good ideas and knowledge but you just say, well he should do better, or tanking would be better... So lets have an actual discussion about actual things and records of draft etc from tanking teams and see where he fits. I might be wrong..... But I think the point is as long as you keep arguing alternate realities and future projections you can never be wrong... is that it?

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10-30-2012, 12:39 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kessel vs Crosby.....I sure would not want to be the GM who choose Kessel over Crosby.

As for my age.....likely been on the green side of this earth longer then you....but that has little to do with nonsense posted in this thread.

We have added some pieces that we can use going forward but not as many as you think. We need to add some quality pieces in key positions if we are ever going to be a Cup contender.

The problem is that teams are not in the habit of trading Key pieces that often and those are the players that get you to the cup.
I agree with pretty much all of this. More needs to be done for sure. He has still done a lot more than most in the 3.5 years he has had.....

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10-30-2012, 12:40 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Sounds just like the Mayor.

It's what it takes to make it in this town.
Please, let's leave the Mayor out of it. I need to control my blood pressure.

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10-30-2012, 12:41 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Reilly was just drafted while Hamilton was Drafted 2 years ago.
They were drafted 1 year apart and not 2 like you're trying to make it sound and no one would call a 18 year old 6'5" CHL defensive player of the year a bust if he was a Leaf pick .


Last edited by hotpaws: 10-30-2012 at 12:53 AM.
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10-30-2012, 12:43 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
It's hilarious that i ever tried having a discussion with you , i'll never allow myself to do that again .
hotpaws if you want to have a discussion just make a thread.

I never Mentioned Rielly.



I would love some way to have a serious debate.

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10-30-2012, 12:45 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Again just like before gerber had a similar record to the other goalies that year. Boyd devereaux cost the 5th pick with a hat trick.... I was there I watched it. I also watched Aubin ride an 11 game wave with sundin on the shelf... you cannot predict streaks. The leafs have went on late season runs regardless of personel. It is just stupid to say you know how it would have turned out without a goalie who had the same win percentage as the rest....

Again for the millionth time, show me a team that has added more quality young first round talent during his tenure. You have argued this for years. Why not point to a tanking team and say that team has added more and better......Shouldnt it be easy?

Thats the frustrating part about your posts. You have good ideas and knowledge but you just say, well he should do better, or tanking would be better... So lets have an actual discussion about actual things and records of draft etc from tanking teams and see where he fits. I might be wrong..... But I think the point is as long as you keep arguing alternate realities and future projections you can never be wrong... is that it?
No they didn't have a similar record with the Leafs , Gerbers numbers while quite mediocre were a vast improvement over Cujo/Pogge . Again with this crap about there's no way to tell what could have happened even though the odds were greatly in favour of the Leafs finishing worse without Gerber .

Alot of teams have added numerous quality prospects Edm/Flor/NYI/Col , you act like Burke is alone in this .

The frustrating part is you ignore all rational paths that Burke could have taken to try to justify your opinion that there's no way anyone could have done a better rebuild . I don't understand how you can justify this when you keep saying we can never know where another path may have led us .


Last edited by hotpaws: 10-30-2012 at 12:57 AM.
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10-30-2012, 12:46 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YA he might not be on those lists because he wasn't draft eligible until 2006.

so that must show that he was younger than Crosby when the comparisons were getting made.

Wow.

So he went from #1 to #5 because of his fat % and bad interviews?

But other wise he was #1 in the draft?

Now we know he is no Crosby, but he sure is elite.
Crosby and Kessel are both 87 birth years.....Crosby is a whole two months older.

His interview were based on questions around team mates......look it up.
Kessel is an Elite offensive player.....however he is soft and needs to play in the dirty areas of the ice.

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10-30-2012, 12:53 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kessel vs Crosby.....I sure would not want to be the GM who choose Kessel over Crosby.

As for my age.....likely been on the green side of this earth longer then you....but that has little to do with nonsense posted in this thread.

We have added some pieces that we can use going forward but not as many as you think. We need to add some quality pieces in key positions if we are ever going to be a Cup contender.

The problem is that teams are not in the habit of trading Key pieces that often and those are the players that get you to the cup.
YES you are right. Heads would roll if you picked Kessel over Crosby. But Kessel would easily be #2. Bobby Ryan doesn't have 4 30g seasons.

By the time his draft rolled around there were "locker room issues: rumours goin around.

Kid did end up having tesicular cancer. He was the 6th best scorer in the league last year.

Beat cancer and was 6th in scoring with Bozak as a center, I'll keep him.

If you don't think he's respected in the room??? How do you not repect someone who has beaten cancer and is one of the best in the world.

He is the drug free Lance Armstrong - haha maybe a bit much. but it fits

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10-30-2012, 12:59 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
I agree with pretty much all of this. More needs to be done for sure. He has still done a lot more than most in the 3.5 years he has had.....
4 drafts 4 t/d 4 ufa seasons and at the end of next month 4 full years on the job

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10-30-2012, 01:02 AM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
No one is saying it is a direct result of the Kessel trade. Thats the point, the kessel trade is a direct result of burke and his philosophies.
Yup. Had Burke decided that he wasn't going to try to stay competitive, there's no reason for him to trade for all the young prospects that he's acquired to date.

Trade off vets for any pick you can get, stockpile draft picks, and the GM essentially sits around doing nothing for 5+ years. The majority of our prospects would be from the last 3-4 years. With the team as it was, it probably only would have netted a couple of first round (10+) picks more.

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10-30-2012, 01:02 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Crosby and Kessel are both 87 birth years.....Crosby is a whole two months older.

His interview were based on questions around team mates......look it up.
Kessel is an Elite offensive player.....however he is soft and needs to play in the dirty areas of the ice.
I think it was the systems.

The Q is notorious for high scoring.

Sid is obviously the better player lets not get distracted.

Regardless of his answers Kessel was/is talented enough to be drafted #2 in '05 and #1 in '06.

NOw that is a thread of it's own.


I don't think I can make one.

Diceman would you?

between 05 and 06 who is #2

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10-30-2012, 01:11 AM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YES you are right. Heads would roll if you picked Kessel over Crosby. But Kessel would easily be #2. Bobby Ryan doesn't have 4 30g seasons.
By the time his draft rolled around there were "locker room issues: rumours goin around.

Kid did end up having tesicular cancer. He was the 6th best scorer in the league last year.

Beat cancer and was 6th in scoring with Bozak as a center, I'll keep him.

If you don't think he's respected in the room??? How do you not repect someone who has beaten cancer and is one of the best in the world.

He is the drug free Lance Armstrong - haha maybe a bit much. but it fits
Bobby Ryan does have 4 consecutive 30 goal seasons(31, 35, 34, and 31)

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10-30-2012, 01:12 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
No they didn't have a similar record with the Leafs , Gerbers numbers while quite mediocre were a vast improvement over Cujo/Pogge . Again with this crap about there's no way to tell what could have happened even though the odds were greatly in favour of the Leafs finishing worse without Gerber .

Alot of teams have added numerous quality prospects Edm/Flor/NYI/Col , you act like Burke is alone in this .

The frustrating part is you ignore all rational paths that Burke could have taken to try to justify your opinion that there's no way anyone could have done a better rebuild . I don't understand how you can justify this when you keep saying we can never know where another path may have led us .
Only the ones who ignore how good the other teams have become can deny that Burke(and co. He would be the first to give the other managers credit) has done a decent job.

What would you have BUrke do?

Keep Kaberle and Beauchemin and White. Let Stajan Center Kulemin on our top line?

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10-30-2012, 01:13 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
But they're going to actually WIN in the near future.

While Burke's mess of a team will continue wallowing in mediocrity.

If we're going to finish bottom 10 four years in a row, I'd MUCH rather have a bright future like Edmonton, than than the ridiculousness Burke has created.
You only want the Edmonton route because you already know how both ended up. If this were Day 1 four years ago, and I asked you who you wanted to be -- Toronto attempting an on-the-fly rebuild while gunning for the playoffs each year, or Edmonton, fielding the worst team in hockey over those 4 years, I can guarantee you you would've picked Toronto. All this fawning over Edmonton and throwing Burke tantrums every other night is because you're just desperate for a scapegoat.

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10-30-2012, 01:17 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
Bobby Ryan does have 4 consecutive 30 goal seasons(31, 35, 34, and 31)
Haha, thought it was only 3.

Teach me to double check;

Guess that would make him a bit better competition for Kessel.

I would still give Ryan the edge in linemates.

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10-30-2012, 01:23 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by keonsbitterness View Post
Please, let's leave the Mayor out of it. I need to control my blood pressure.
What.

You telling me to leave the mayor out of it when you make him your avatar!

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10-30-2012, 01:26 AM
  #419
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4 drafts 4 t/d 4 ufa seasons and at the end of next month 4 full years on the job
Right. Start counting the lockout. He isn't allowed to talk to players.

That's Just Classy.

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10-30-2012, 01:31 AM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I don't think I can make one.

Diceman would you?

between 05 and 06 who is #2
Toews would go #2, Giroux #3, Backstrom probably 4, Price/kopitar 5/6 then Kessel/Ryan 7/8 imo.

but I firmly believe Center's Greater then Wingers.

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10-30-2012, 04:10 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
No one is saying it is a direct result of the Kessel trade. Thats the point, the kessel trade is a direct result of burke and his philosophies. Burke is the one who landed all of these players..... You have to include them, because that is what he did. The young "players" he gave up were picks that basically turned into the kessel deal.

We could go on all day about 2nd and third round picks and stalberg and signing bozak etc... but HF is concerned with first rounders, thats why I brought up first rounders. Thats what people wanted. Suck to get high first rounders and trade dead weight for low first rounders.
If you want to add in bozak mac, etc.... It will take all day, but still make toronto look better, because Burke has made the team much better in terms of young talent.

remember THIS IS ABOUT BURKES PERFORMANCE NOT THE KESSEL DEAL, which is a small part of his overall tenure.

You cant just assume that another GM would have kept the picks and somehow got gardiner dion lupul et al...
It's been 4 years.
The team Burke inherited finished 7th last.
Last year 5th last.

The team Burke inherited was 10th in goals for.
Last year 10th.

The team Burke inherited was 30th in goals against.
Last year 29th.

The team Burke inherited had HIGHER ranking prospects according to both HF and the Hockey News.
and in support of that...
The Marlies team Burke inherited (full of prospects at the time) had a better season than last seasons Marlies (full of current prospects).





Do you think those FACTS paint a positive or negative colour on Burke's performance thus far?

It seems in 4 years, he hasn't improved the overall team, offense, defence, or prospects (based on both prospect rankings and Marlies performances). How can you possibly be content?

Sure, he's added some quality players. But after four bottom 10 finishes ANY gm would have added some quality players.
Looking at the big picture (the facts I posted above) makes Burke appear like a flat out disgrace of a GM.

Can you at least acknowledge that those FACTS probably matter more in the long run than pointing out a couple of "good things here and there" that Burke has done?
Any GM after four years would have a couple of "good things here and there".
But what if NO improvement in offence, defense, standings, and ahl team? NONE!!!!
Shouldn't those facts be the "be all end all" on whether he's doing a good job or not?


Last edited by Disgruntled Observer: 10-30-2012 at 04:19 AM.
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10-30-2012, 04:17 AM
  #422
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Yeah, just as soon as they start getting some D, goaltending, grit, offensive depth beyond the first line (even with our MIA secondary scoring, we still outscored them last season), and of course some veteran leadership. Should be any day now... just make sure you don't hold your breath waiting for it.
I remember people saying the same thing after the Penguins had just drafted Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, and Staal.
"Where's the Defense? Where's the wingers? Where's the depth? Cap problems in the future"
blah blah blah

Then they won the cup.
I'm not saying that Edmonton's young core will necessarily be as good as Malkin, Crosby, etc.
But Edmonton has filled themselves up with some of the best available players in the world the past 4 years. The players that have the best chance of being utterly elite.

Let's face it... getting the UTTERLY ELITE PLAYERS is the HARD part.
Filling the gaps is the EASY part.

Edmonton in a few years has to do the "easy part".
Burke, after four bottom 10 finishes, still has to focus on the "hard part".
He sucks.
He's been a terrible GM.

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10-30-2012, 04:18 AM
  #423
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Id say no, dont keep him. Simply because a new person would come in with a fresh slate, no pride tied to any given player, etc.

It MAY be that the best way to longterm build this team the way good teams are built (with better centres/goaltending), all options including trading Kessel would need to be considered. It might be that resigning Kessel longterm would also be the best option as well. But I think Burke has a huge bias here with one of our most valuable assets, and would never consider trading him.

A new GM wouldnt consider anything off the table. Which may be what is needed to get this team where it needs to go. In the next two years we have a ton if valuable UFAs, and i dont want to lose them for nothing in some vain attempt at trying to squeek into the playoffs just to save face. This team is several major pieces away from being a contender and would get thumped even if we squeeked in.

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10-30-2012, 04:41 AM
  #424
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You only want the Edmonton route because you already know how both ended up. If this were Day 1 four years ago, and I asked you who you wanted to be -- Toronto attempting an on-the-fly rebuild while gunning for the playoffs each year, or Edmonton, fielding the worst team in hockey over those 4 years, I can guarantee you you would've picked Toronto. All this fawning over Edmonton and throwing Burke tantrums every other night is because you're just desperate for a scapegoat.
I was vocally calling (on these very forums) for a full rebuild well before burke was even hired here.
I was cautiously optimistic when the Kessel trade happened (he was afterall a 21 year old that just scored 36 goals) but thought "Burke better ****ING well know what he's doing", because back then I had high hopes for Burke.

Then we finished 2nd last... and my anger against Burke first began.
Then we finished bottom 10 four years in a row.
Then we finished WORSE in the standings 4 years later than when he arrived.
Then BOTH the hockey news and HF ranked our current prospects WORSE than when he arrived.

I now feel about Burke the way all rational leaf fans should feel.
I showed earlier in the thread that many many leaf fans were supportive of JFJ right until the bitter end. Then they turned on him faster than you would ever imagine.
Do you really think that's not going to happen with Burke?

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10-30-2012, 04:55 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
You only want the Edmonton route because you already know how both ended up. If this were Day 1 four years ago, and I asked you who you wanted to be -- Toronto attempting an on-the-fly rebuild while gunning for the playoffs each year, or Edmonton, fielding the worst team in hockey over those 4 years, I can guarantee you you would've picked Toronto. All this fawning over Edmonton and throwing Burke tantrums every other night is because you're just desperate for a scapegoat.
When Fletcher came in, the common feeling around Leaf Land was that people were willing to tear it all down and go full rebuild. Same thing when Burke got here.

In fact, JFJ had been trying for years to pull off the "on the fly retool", and it frustrated the heck out of the majority of fans. Burke walked into an EASY situation where the majority of fans were willing to put up with a few years of crap if it meant rebuilding properly for once instead of seeing yet more Rask for Racroft, picks for Toskala, etc type of moves backfiring,

Are Edm fans calling for Tambellinis head? No. Because rebuilding is actually very simple. Sell off assets, and HOLD ONTO your 1st and 2nd round picks. A blind monkey can do it. Yet somehow Burke screwed it up, even though he had a fanbase that was fully prepared at the time to see that type of rebuild.

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