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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Old
10-30-2012, 05:09 AM
  #426
4evaBlue
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I remember people saying the same thing after the Penguins had just drafted Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, and Staal.
"Where's the Defense? Where's the wingers? Where's the depth? Cap problems in the future"
blah blah blah

Then they won the cup.
I'm not saying that Edmonton's young core will necessarily be as good as Malkin, Crosby, etc.
But Edmonton has filled themselves up with some of the best available players in the world the past 4 years. The players that have the best chance of being utterly elite.

Let's face it... getting the UTTERLY ELITE PLAYERS is the HARD part.
Filling the gaps is the EASY part.

Edmonton in a few years has to do the "easy part".
Burke, after four bottom 10 finishes, still has to focus on the "hard part".
He sucks.
He's been a terrible GM.
I don't know. To me, tanking is the easy part. Utilizing the short time available (while your superstars are still on ELCs or bridging contracts) to make a serious push for the cup. We've seen during the last UFA session how expensive gritty guys are, and even the below average ones got picked up really fast at an overpayment.

Having an elite first line is good. You ideally want some eliteness on the blue line and / or net. Where are those going to come from? Are they going to waste next year's #1 overall pick to draft one, then wait for him to develop? Are they going to start trading their elite prospects for first pairing defensemen and / or goalie?

Let's face it, Pens got lucky (and the NHL helped them out considerably by gifting them w/ Sid). To be able to pick up players of Crosby's and Malkin's quality in back to back seasons, is not very likely to happen anytime soon, so using them as any kind of comparison is pretty far fetched. Put those two on any team, and they instantly become contenders (something that could not be said about any subset of the Oilers roster).

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Old
10-30-2012, 05:31 AM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I was vocally calling (on these very forums) for a full rebuild well before burke was even hired here.
I was cautiously optimistic when the Kessel trade happened (he was afterall a 21 year old that just scored 36 goals) but thought "Burke better ****ING well know what he's doing", because back then I had high hopes for Burke.

Then we finished 2nd last... and my anger against Burke first began.
Then we finished bottom 10 four years in a row.
Then we finished WORSE in the standings 4 years later than when he arrived.
Then BOTH the hockey news and HF ranked our current prospects WORSE than when he arrived.

I now feel about Burke the way all rational leaf fans should feel.
I showed earlier in the thread that many many leaf fans were supportive of JFJ right until the bitter end. Then they turned on him faster than you would ever imagine.
Do you really think that's not going to happen with Burke?
What's a full rebuild? Please don't say "Not acquiring any vets" because you'll probably find the teams you think of as "full rebuild" have also added those along the way.

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Old
10-30-2012, 05:46 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Oh... My... God...

One team had 109 regular season points, and higher prospect rankings according to BOTH the Hockey News and HF.

The other had a measly 96 regular season points, and lower prospect ranking according to BOTH the Hockey News and HF.

Of course spin and rhetoric was used. Unsubstantiated nonsense about age of players or something.
It just never ends.
So you don't want to know what the lineups were and who did what when the hockey mattered? I thought you guys were about results? Go ahead, compare the two groups and get back to me with some FACTS.

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Old
10-30-2012, 05:48 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
So now we're rebuilding the rebuild which rebuilt the original retool ?

Will this be the last rebuild or are there many many more rebuilds to come .
Like drywalling, one would assume the rebuild is near completion until the known (and acknowledged by the man himself) holes are at least patched.

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10-30-2012, 06:05 AM
  #430
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I think theres legitimate cause for concern that we will slip back into a full rebuild in the next few years. W're spinning our tires. At this point its impossible to say if Kessel/Phaneuf will resign, but theyre in their primes, and most players in their situation in the past have left via free agency. Especially since this team doesnt look like its going to be close to a contender anytime soon.

The silver lining is that at least at this point we have some decent prospects and depth, so it shouldnt take as long as an Edm rebuild. But we're still years away almost no matter what happens.

If Kessel and Phaneuf resign, we still have two gaping holes at C and G, which could take years to fill. If we end up having to trade them before they walk, then we'll still have those needs + be missing two of our current best players. Though depending on what we got in return for them, and where our pick ended up, we could get some of those pieces much quicker that way.

Realistically the only way I see us becoming a good team within 2 years is if we get a top notch free agent. Getzlaf would fill a huge hole for us. And having him could convince Kessel/Phaneuf to resign. But yea, pure speculation here.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:32 AM
  #431
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
What's a full rebuild? Please don't say "Not acquiring any vets" because you'll probably find the teams you think of as "full rebuild" have also added those along the way.
I'd say a good step towards a "full rebuild" is finishing 2nd last and 9th last while still having YOUR FIRST ROUND ****ING PPPPPIIIICCCKKKKSSSSS!!!!!!!
AHHHHHHGGGGGGGG

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:36 AM
  #432
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So you don't want to know what the lineups were and who did what when the hockey mattered? I thought you guys were about results? Go ahead, compare the two groups and get back to me with some FACTS.
When Burke's team finished runner up to the calder cup, Burke supporters wouldn't accept any criticism of the marlies team. NONE. Any criticism was seen as grasping at straws. It was 100% PROOF that he developed elite prospects.

But now that we've shown that JFJ's "bare cupboards (lol)" Marlies team had a BETTER record... it's excuse after excuse after excuse.

I think that, at this point, you see that you're just wrong. Your opinions about Burke are simply incorrect.
But as is a common character flaw in most human beings, you simply won't admit it.
Whatever...

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10-30-2012, 07:25 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
When Burke's team finished runner up to the calder cup, Burke supporters wouldn't accept any criticism of the marlies team. NONE. Any criticism was seen as grasping at straws. It was 100% PROOF that he developed elite prospects.

But now that we've shown that JFJ's "bare cupboards (lol)" Marlies team had a BETTER record... it's excuse after excuse after excuse.

I think that, at this point, you see that you're just wrong. Your opinions about Burke are simply incorrect.
But as is a common character flaw in most human beings, you simply won't admit it.
Whatever...
It's been discussed in this thread already. Just like it's the case with the 7th worst Leafs of '08, and the 5th worse Leafs of '12, you have to look at who the main (positive) contributors were. on the JFJ Marlies, just like the JFJ Leafs it was mostly the veterans that were carrying the weight.

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Old
10-30-2012, 07:52 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
It's been discussed in this thread already. Just like it's the case with the 7th worst Leafs of '08, and the 5th worse Leafs of '12, you have to look at who the main (positive) contributors were. on the JFJ Marlies, just like the JFJ Leafs it was mostly the veterans that were carrying the weight.
Really...

Age of top 5 point getters 2007-08 team.
32
22
22
23
29

Age of top 5 point getters 2011-12 team
30
26
23
23
20

Seems pretty god damn similar to me...

Age of defensemen, top 5 games played
2007-08
29
24
25
20
24

2011-12
27
20
22
24
23

Again, pretty god damn ****ing similar. Look these up yourself.


Why can't you guys just accept facts without using spin and making excuses?

You guys all LOVED to talk about Burkes team making the Marlies so great. About how that was 100% verifiable PROOF that he's improved our prospects.

BUT NOW YOU IGNORE THAT THE TEAM HE INHERITED HAD AN EVEN BETTER MARLIES TEAM!!!! THE TEAM YOU ALL SAID HAD "EMPTY ****ING CUPBOARDS"!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's so much intellectual dishonesty.
It's sickening.


Last edited by Disgruntled Observer: 10-30-2012 at 08:02 AM.
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Old
10-30-2012, 08:14 AM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Really...

Age of top 5 point getters 2007-08 team.
32
22
22
23
29

Age of top 5 point getters 2011-12 team
30
26
23
23
20

Seems pretty god damn similar to me...

Age of defensemen, top 5 games played
2007-08
29
24
25
20
24

2011-12
27
20
22
24
23

Again, pretty god damn ****ing similar. Look these up yourself.


Why can't you guys just accept facts without using spin and making excuses?

You guys all LOVED to talk about Burkes team making the Marlies so great. About how that was 100% verifiable PROOF that he's improved our prospects.

BUT NOW YOU IGNORE THAT THE TEAM HE INHERITED HAD AN EVEN BETTER MARLIES TEAM!!!! THE TEAM YOU ALL SAID HAD "EMPTY ****ING CUPBOARDS"!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's so much intellectual dishonesty.
It's sickening.

DO you have successfully debunked every single argument/myth perpetrated by Burke's dilussional supporters.

Where can they go from here? What will they think up next?

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Old
10-30-2012, 08:17 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I don't know. To me, tanking is the easy part. Utilizing the short time available (while your superstars are still on ELCs or bridging contracts) to make a serious push for the cup. We've seen during the last UFA session how expensive gritty guys are, and even the below average ones got picked up really fast at an overpayment.

Having an elite first line is good. You ideally want some eliteness on the blue line and / or net. Where are those going to come from? Are they going to waste next year's #1 overall pick to draft one, then wait for him to develop? Are they going to start trading their elite prospects for first pairing defensemen and / or goalie?

Let's face it, Pens got lucky (and the NHL helped them out considerably by gifting them w/ Sid). To be able to pick up players of Crosby's and Malkin's quality in back to back seasons, is not very likely to happen anytime soon, so using them as any kind of comparison is pretty far fetched. Put those two on any team, and they instantly become contenders (something that could not be said about any subset of the Oilers roster).
If drafting a series of utterly elite players is the "easy part", then why haven't the leafs been able to it in like 20 some odd years?

It seems that the majority of teams I see winning the Stanley Cup are using utterly elite players that they drafted...
If it's so easy, how come the leafs can never do it?

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Old
10-30-2012, 08:26 AM
  #437
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Stajan, Hagman, White, Mayers
for
Phaneuf, Sjostrum, Aulie

Burke used assets already on the team. Phaneuf wasn't magically transformed out of nothing.

Ashton for Aulie (from the assets already on the team used in the Phaneuf deal)

Percy and Leivo from Tlusty, Stalberg and Didomenico - Assets already on the team.

Colborne, Biggs from Kaberle - Asset already on the team.

JVR from Schenn - Asset already on the team.

Granberg - from Stempniak from Steen and Colaiacovo

Kenny Ryan - from Antropov

Deschamps - from Caputi from Ponikovski

So the following assets were from with assets already onboard when Burke arrived:

Phaneuf
JVR
Kulemin
Reimer
Grabovski
Gunnarsson
Holzer
Colborne
Ashton
Granberg
Percy
Deschamp
Leivo
Biggs
Ryan

Could be more but the point is the cupboards were not bare when Burke arrived.

To me Burke's most outstanding transaction is UFA signing Beauchemin for Lupul and Gardiner. This is an A++ deal.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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10-30-2012, 08:32 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Stajan, Hagman, White, Mayers
for
Phaneuf, Sjostrum, Aulie

Burke used assets already on the team. Phaneuf wasn't magically transformed out of nothing.

Ashton for Aulie (from the assets already on the team used in the Phaneuf deal)

Percy and Leivo from Tlusty, Stalberg and Didomenico - Assets already on the team.

Colborne, Biggs from Kaberle - Asset already on the team.

JVR from Schenn - Asset already on the team.

Granberg - from Stempniak from Steen and Colaiacovo

Kenny Ryan - from Antropov

Deschamps - from Caputi from Ponikovski

So the following assets were from with assets already onboard when Burke arrived:

Phaneuf
JVR
Kulemin
Reimer
Grabovski
Gunnarsson
Holzer
Colborne
Ashton
Granberg
Percy
Deschamp
Leivo
Biggs
Ryan

Could be more but the point is the cupboards were not bare when Burke arrived.

To me Burke's most outstanding transaction is UFA signing Beauchemin for Lupul and Gardiner. This is an A++ deal.
It also shows that, to get that return, Beauchemin wasn't nearly as bad as many leaf fans made him out to be.
I always defended him around here. He was a scapegoat for a failing team with a terrible manager. I personally always saw the problems as MUCH bigger than Beauchemin, who I thought was pretty solid here.

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10-30-2012, 08:37 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
It also shows that, to get that return, Beauchemin wasn't nearly as bad as many leaf fans made him out to be.
I always defended him around here. He was a scapegoat for a failing team with a terrible manager. I personally always saw the problems as MUCH bigger than Beauchemin, who I thought was pretty solid here.
I detested Beauchemin, and wasn't impressed with the signing right off the bat I called him a depth defender (someone on 2nd. / 3rd. pairing).

Perhaps if Ronnie didn't try and use him as a top pairing guy and didn't force the team into pinch-heck things might have looked better.

Pinching when you're lined up beside Niedermayer or Pronger is different than playing with Phaneuf, Komisarek, or rookies and continuously pinching at the wrong time.

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10-30-2012, 09:17 AM
  #440
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
A similar number of leaf fans supported the disaster of a GM term of JFJ in 2007.
What's your point?
Prove it.

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10-30-2012, 09:20 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I'd say a good step towards a "full rebuild" is finishing 2nd last and 9th last while still having YOUR FIRST ROUND ****ING PPPPPIIIICCCKKKKSSSSS!!!!!!!
AHHHHHHGGGGGGGG

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10-30-2012, 09:24 AM
  #442
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What's a full rebuild? Please don't say "Not acquiring any vets" because you'll probably find the teams you think of as "full rebuild" have also added those along the way.
A full rebuild is, for example, not trading two frist round picks under any circumstances.

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10-30-2012, 09:34 AM
  #443
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DO you have successfully debunked every single argument/myth perpetrated by Burke's dilussional supporters.

Where can they go from here? What will they think up next?
Nothing to think up!! Nothing debunked!! No myths or anything.

Fact is Burke is here and will continue to be here through next year!! Say all you want about anything but it will never change that fact!

Everyone trashes Burke for the state of the current team. If you thought that team was the team he intended to win with then you are so sadly disillusioned. We are seeing the team take shape and the peices fall into place. True he hasn't acheived the highly-sought 1C or 1G but we don;t know what's in-store when this CBA mess is finally resolved

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10-30-2012, 09:40 AM
  #444
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Nothing to think up!! Nothing debunked!! No myths or anything.

Fact is Burke is here and will continue to be here through next year!! Say all you want about anything but it will never change that fact!

Everyone trashes Burke for the state of the current team. If you thought that team was the team he intended to win with then you are so sadly disillusioned. We are seeing the team take shape and the peices fall into place. True he hasn't acheived the highly-sought 1C or 1G but we don;t know what's in-store when this CBA mess is finally resolved
I guess thats all you guys have left to run your campaign on ...

"BURKE HASN'T BEEN FIRED SO HE MUST BE DOING A GOOD JOB"
The lengths Burkites will steep to never ceases to amaze me.

I vaguely remember him trading away a #1C to Boston a few years back ...

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10-30-2012, 09:44 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I'd say a good step towards a "full rebuild" is finishing 2nd last and 9th last while still having YOUR FIRST ROUND ****ING PPPPPIIIICCCKKKKSSSSS!!!!!!!
AHHHHHHGGGGGGGG
Unless you know a way of undoing what you find so tragic, it's best to just move on.
I'm sure you agree.

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10-30-2012, 09:50 AM
  #446
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I guess thats all you guys have left to run your campaign on ...

"BURKE HASN'T BEEN FIRED SO HE MUST BE DOING A GOOD JOB"
The lengths Burkites will steep to never ceases to amaze me.

I vaguely remember him trading away a #1C to Boston a few years back ...
Exactly!!! There is nothing left to argue. You may as well argue you don;t want the sun to shine tomorrow or you don't want to pay taxes cause it's about the same thing.

The people in control feel the same way that us Burke-supporters do. Wether right or not is irrelevant. You argue the team hasn't done well while most of us argue his actions will ensure the team will do well. Might as well be CBA negotiations because noone's speakng the same language. The only truth in the matter is Burke is here which luckily for me appeases only one side.

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10-30-2012, 09:55 AM
  #447
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Exactly!!! There is nothing left to argue. You may as well argue you don;t want the sun to shine tomorrow or you don't want to pay taxes cause it's about the same thing.

The people in control feel the same way that us Burke-supporters do. Wether right or not is irrelevant. You argue the team hasn't done well while most of us argue his actions will ensure the team will do well. Might as well be CBA negotiations because noone's speakng the same language. The only truth in the matter is Burke is here which luckily for me appeases only one side.
So why do we vote?
Why would anyone want to go to University?
Why would a woman want to escape an abusive relationship?

What you're suggesting is that THINGS ARE BROKEN and there's nothing we can do about it so we might as well just live with the consequences.

When in reality we are the ones in charge. We collectively decide the direction this franchise takes. As long as fans like you continue to JUSTIFY LOSING RESULTS as the NORM you are exactly right, in that nothing will ever change.

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10-30-2012, 10:04 AM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Stajan, Hagman, White, Mayers
for
Phaneuf, Sjostrum, Aulie

Burke used assets already on the team. Phaneuf wasn't magically transformed out of nothing.

Ashton for Aulie (from the assets already on the team used in the Phaneuf deal)

Percy and Leivo from Tlusty, Stalberg and Didomenico - Assets already on the team.

Colborne, Biggs from Kaberle - Asset already on the team.

JVR from Schenn - Asset already on the team.

Granberg - from Stempniak from Steen and Colaiacovo

Kenny Ryan - from Antropov

Deschamps - from Caputi from Ponikovski

So the following assets were from with assets already onboard when Burke arrived:

Phaneuf
JVR
Kulemin
Reimer
Grabovski
Gunnarsson
Holzer
Colborne
Ashton
Granberg
Percy
Deschamp
Leivo
Biggs
Ryan

Could be more but the point is the cupboards were not bare when Burke arrived.

To me Burke's most outstanding transaction is UFA signing Beauchemin for Lupul and Gardiner. This is an A++ deal.
You have made a lot of good posts and points over the years, but this is not one of them. To say that Burke was able to trade assets that were already on the team (guess what , all teams come with assets that can be traded) as proof the cupboards weren't bare is beyond ridiculous. It has bee stated time and time again Burke has made several trades that were pure highway robbery, which would indicate, he traded scraps (for the most part) for a solid player/s.

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10-30-2012, 10:21 AM
  #449
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
When Burke's team finished runner up to the calder cup, Burke supporters wouldn't accept any criticism of the marlies team. NONE. Any criticism was seen as grasping at straws. It was 100% PROOF that he developed elite prospects.

But now that we've shown that JFJ's "bare cupboards (lol)" Marlies team had a BETTER record... it's excuse after excuse after excuse.

I think that, at this point, you see that you're just wrong. Your opinions about Burke are simply incorrect.
But as is a common character flaw in most human beings, you simply won't admit it.
Whatever
...
Who were the leading/main players on either team? Because las year when the Marlies lost they were missing their 2 key players who were 21 & 23. It's not really an excuse when the main players from last years squad were younger then the main players from the 08 squad.

As for the bolded, likewise!

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10-30-2012, 10:25 AM
  #450
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Really...

Age of top 5 point getters 2007-08 team.
32
22
22
23
29

Age of top 5 point getters 2011-12 team
30
26
23
23
20

Seems pretty god damn similar to me...

Age of defensemen, top 5 games played
2007-08
29
24
25
20
24

2011-12
27
20
22
24
23

Again, pretty god damn ****ing similar. Look these up yourself.


Why can't you guys just accept facts without using spin and making excuses?

You guys all LOVED to talk about Burkes team making the Marlies so great. About how that was 100% verifiable PROOF that he's improved our prospects.

BUT NOW YOU IGNORE THAT THE TEAM HE INHERITED HAD AN EVEN BETTER MARLIES TEAM!!!! THE TEAM YOU ALL SAID HAD "EMPTY ****ING CUPBOARDS"!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It's so much intellectual dishonesty.
It's sickening.
You should check the playoff stats...

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