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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Old
10-31-2012, 08:00 PM
  #701
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Oh in that case Sundin, Mogily, Roberts, Tucker and Nieuwendyk all say hello.

Those were some good teams.
Yep, that's why they were willing to give up young assets for veteran players like Nolan. They didn't make those trades for the future.

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He was the Leafs' leading scorer in the 196364, 196667 and 196970 seasons, and the team's top goal scorer in 197071 and 197273. Keon was considered one of the fastest skaters in the NHL, and one of the best defensive forwards of his era.[3] He would usually play against the opposing team's top centre, and developed a reputation for neutralizing some of the league's top scorers. In 197071, he scored eight shorthanded goals, setting an NHL record.
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10-31-2012, 08:03 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Where are the 1st. round picks that that team would have garnered?

Do you think that team is worse than what Burke has put on the ice?
On the Marlies of course, where most of the first rounders end up.

The roster isn't any better than our current lineup, even with some pretty bad stopgaps. I'd understand someone being upset at not keeping some impact players around, but not sure if there's a sense dwelling over what may have happened had we kept a bunch of tweeners from 4 years ago.

Burke's managed to keep our cap looking real good, and our roster very flexible in preparation for the new CBA, why muck that up for some random players who can very easily be replaced?

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10-31-2012, 08:06 PM
  #703
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When I pencil in every prospect the Leafs have as NHL caliber, have Lupul play 82 games and maintain career best numbers, have Kessel play better defense with no impact on his offense, pencil Reimer stats in 2013 as 2011, have the team buy into Carlyle's system quickly and effectively, have Liles return to pre-concussion caliber, by the Grace of God have no significant injuries at all and have the penalty kill miraculously emerge from the depths of ineptitude where it has been for YEARS then I to see the greatness in Burke's team.

I was just viewing things with unrealistic expectations before.

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10-31-2012, 08:16 PM
  #704
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I was just viewing things with unrealistic expectations before.
Like what? A rebuild being completed in under 4 years?

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10-31-2012, 08:42 PM
  #705
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Like what? A rebuild being completed in under 4 years?
lol That old same song and dance. It's not what he says but what I interpret what he says and does.

I am of little faith my friend. Call me when they have a goalie or a center worth a lick and I'll be happy to oblige you.

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10-31-2012, 09:14 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by thecatch22 View Post
lol That old same song and dance. It's not what he says but what I interpret what he says and does.

I am of little faith my friend. Call me when they have a goalie or a center worth a lick and I'll be happy to oblige you.
<3 for being a good sport.

Here's the thing about the roster holes that need filling. When looking at a work in progress, there will always be major pieces missing. If it's not #1C and #1G, then it's first line wingers and/or #1D. It's a bit ironic that not that long ago, when we had #1C, and #1G spots filled, we lacked quality wingers, and a solid two-way #1D.

One thing I'm absolutely sure about. Burke is very well aware of our #1C and goaltending issues (regardless of what he says in the media about having complete faith in Reimer, blah, blah). I'm also fairly certain that he realizes that his job (or at least his contract extension) most likely hinges on him being able to fill those two holes. This leads me to believe that he will try very hard to obtain those pieces in the next year or two. The new CBA, and some expiring contracts on marquee players may provide him with an opportunity that he was anticipating (with the careful cap management job he's been doing).

Time will tell.

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10-31-2012, 09:16 PM
  #707
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My choice? Yes I keep him. I like his crazy attitude and style.

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10-31-2012, 10:17 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
On the Marlies of course, where most of the first rounders end up.

The roster isn't any better than our current lineup, even with some pretty bad stopgaps. I'd understand someone being upset at not keeping some impact players around, but not sure if there's a sense dwelling over what may have happened had we kept a bunch of tweeners from 4 years ago.

Burke's managed to keep our cap looking real good, and our roster very flexible in preparation for the new CBA, why muck that up for some random players who can very easily be replaced?
That's one thing I've liked about Burke -- beyond Komisarek, all of our contracts are short term and moveable. Add in his RFA dealings and he's been a very cap-conscious GM.

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10-31-2012, 10:33 PM
  #709
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mats sundin said he liked how Burke is building the team

and mats sundin knows alll

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10-31-2012, 10:47 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
That's one thing I've liked about Burke -- beyond Komisarek, all of our contracts are short term and moveable. Add in his RFA dealings and he's been a very cap-conscious GM.
This is another point that I forgot to mention WRT Ulf's comment. If the current roster isn't much better or worse than the '08 wishlist roster mentioned above, then why bother w/ all the moves? In the majority of the cases, with the contracts Burke's been handing out, the signings he's done are very low risk, and potentially high reward.

Connolly very well could have clicked with Kessel, and we'd have one less issue to deal with. They didn't? No big deal, we didn't really lose anything other than cap space we weren't planning on using, anyways. Same could be said for the acquisitions of Lupul/Gardiner, Franson/Lombardi, MacArthur, etc.

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Originally Posted by Aplayaz2000 View Post
mats sundin said he liked how Burke is building the team

and mats sundin knows alll
He's just jealous of Bozak, nothing more.

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11-01-2012, 04:05 AM
  #711
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
That's one thing I've liked about Burke -- beyond Komisarek, all of our contracts are short term and moveable. Add in his RFA dealings and he's been a very cap-conscious GM.
Yes he has and for all those people who were critical when he refused to sign those retirement deals, he's looking pretty damn smart at the moment.

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11-01-2012, 05:55 AM
  #712
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Where are the 1st. round picks that that team would have garnered?

Do you think that team is worse than what Burke has put on the ice?
Leaps and bounds worse. I can't think of one player from that the JFJ team that I really wish we had back. If a new GM came in today and traded everyone, there are a bunch of players I would miss like Kessel, Lupul and Phanuef.

Now a commom misconception I feel is that people feel the cupboards were totally bare which I feel is not accurate. But to Burke's credit he kept the players that he should have kept like Frattin, Gunnerson, Kulemin, Grabovski, Reimer and a few others. It is hard to totally write off what JFJ had done when we enjoy some of the fruits of his labour.

Each GM had a questionable trade.

Burke traded 2 first for Kessel which some might argue set this team back.

JFJ traded Tukka Rask which noone will argue set this team back.

The major difference is Burke left us with a league-leading scorer. JFJ left us with Raycroft or whatever the hell we got from the Rask trade.

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11-01-2012, 08:16 AM
  #713
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
This is another point that I forgot to mention WRT Ulf's comment. If the current roster isn't much better or worse than the '08 wishlist roster mentioned above, then why bother w/ all the moves? In the majority of the cases, with the contracts Burke's been handing out, the signings he's done are very low risk, and potentially high reward.

Connolly very well could have clicked with Kessel, and we'd have one less issue to deal with. They didn't? No big deal, we didn't really lose anything other than cap space we weren't planning on using, anyways. Same could be said for the acquisitions of Lupul/Gardiner, Franson/Lombardi, MacArthur, etc.

He's just jealous of Bozak, nothing more.
Leafs are average when it comes to their contracts, and actually how many really bad long term contracts are out there? It is the few really stupid contracts that get all the press. There are other teams who have Komisarek type of mistakes, but those retirement deals (players with big contracts extending past age 36-37) are the ones everyone thinks about.

We've gone through all the teams a couple times, and as far as cap space and expiring contracts Leafs are average.


Mats did have Mogilny, but they really didn't seem to have a lot of chemistry, and I'm not sure he'd have chemistry with Kessel. If Mats was 8 years younger, I'd like to see this though: Lupul-Sundin-Kulemin

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11-01-2012, 08:29 AM
  #714
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
<3 for being a good sport.

Here's the thing about the roster holes that need filling. When looking at a work in progress, there will always be major pieces missing. If it's not #1C and #1G, then it's first line wingers and/or #1D. It's a bit ironic that not that long ago, when we had #1C, and #1G spots filled, we lacked quality wingers, and a solid two-way #1D.

One thing I'm absolutely sure about. Burke is very well aware of our #1C and goaltending issues (regardless of what he says in the media about having complete faith in Reimer, blah, blah). I'm also fairly certain that he realizes that his job (or at least his contract extension) most likely hinges on him being able to fill those two holes. This leads me to believe that he will try very hard to obtain those pieces in the next year or two. The new CBA, and some expiring contracts on marquee players may provide him with an opportunity that he was anticipating (with the careful cap management job he's been doing).

Time will tell.
He needs another defenseman to really bring out Phaneuf. Phaneuf in my estimation is probably 15-18 at his position playing with a really weak top line partner. He's also being asked to play top PP minutes and PK all with below average top line partners.

I do believe we have those in our system, if Gardiner can hold is own more in his own end and if Reilly develops to his potential.

And I agree. I am not the biggest Burke supporter and although a blow hard is hardly a stupid man. Next year has to show progress in the standings. Realistically, if some luck in this draft a top 5 pick is going to garner the Leafs and Burke a real cornerstone (given up on any hockey being played this year). Either Jones or one of the centers will fill a significant void moving forward.

Goaltending. This is a MUST. The team hasn't made the playoffs since Belfour left. Reimer has 0 glove hand and at times is far too passive in the net to play well. I have not given up on the kid but this team needs above average goaltending to succeed. That is a a huge hole.

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11-01-2012, 08:30 AM
  #715
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Leaps and bounds worse.

I can't think of one player from that the JFJ team that I really wish we had back. If a new GM came in today and traded everyone, there are a bunch of players I would miss like Kessel, Lupul and Phanuef.

Now a commom misconception I feel is that people feel the cupboards were totally bare which I feel is not accurate. But to Burke's credit he kept the players that he should have kept like Frattin, Gunnerson, Kulemin, Grabovski, Reimer and a few others. It is hard to totally write off what JFJ had done when we enjoy some of the fruits of his labour.

Each GM had a questionable trade.

Burke traded 2 first for Kessel which some might argue set this team back.

JFJ traded Tukka Rask which noone will argue set this team back.

The major difference is Burke left us with a league-leading scorer. JFJ left us with Raycroft or whatever the hell we got from the Rask trade.
Okay, so since Burke's team is leaps and bounds better, which 8 prospects would you have on the team from the drafts that just passed?

2009 top 7 pick +37th. (no change)
2010 top 1 pick +31st. (worse than 2nd. last)
2011 top 5 pick +35th. (worse than 9th. last)
2012 top 3 pick +33rd. (worse than 5th. last)

We'd have to add those to have a real comparison. Obviously, the team gets those picks whether Burke or a pet rock was GM.

Have to add the picks from the Antropov, Ponikarovsky, and Kaberle trades as well. But could just include the actuals from those trades. Afterall, those picks are from the scouts anyway.

I'd suggest just using McKenzie's picks from the drafts in question, that's something that doesn't take anyone with ability to make. McKenzie just uses multiple NHL scouts lists and averages them out. Bob isn't a scout, he's just someone with a spreadsheet.

If the original team was retained without making the UFA signings, et cetera, the team would still have added prospects via the guaranteed picks rules of the NHL. As I mentioned, a pet rock running the team would still have received those draft picks, and without even hiring a scouting staff you could just use Bob McKenzie to draft your players.

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11-01-2012, 08:58 AM
  #716
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
No. THe Red LIght doesn't help either.



Really I thought they were both made to make the team better?
One was an RFA sheet trade and the other was a deadline rental. C'mon now.

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11-01-2012, 09:03 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Leafs are average when it comes to their contracts, and actually how many really bad long term contracts are out there? It is the few really stupid contracts that get all the press. There are other teams who have Komisarek type of mistakes, but those retirement deals (players with big contracts extending past age 36-37) are the ones everyone thinks about.

We've gone through all the teams a couple times, and as far as cap space and expiring contracts Leafs are average.
It's not just the number of short term contracts, it's the fact that they pretty much ALL expire within a year of each other. It's almost as if he remembered that there was a new CBA on the horizon, and may have even foreseen a lockout.

In hindsight, the Komisarek contract was a mistake, but once again, it's off the books at the same time the rest of the contracts are. In an absolute worst case, he could even be bought out next season without having the cap implications of the Tucker / Blake buyouts.

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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Mats did have Mogilny, but they really didn't seem to have a lot of chemistry, and I'm not sure he'd have chemistry with Kessel. If Mats was 8 years younger, I'd like to see this though: Lupul-Sundin-Kulemin
Mogilny did well, considering his age, but he was way past his prime by the time we got him.We also only had him for a couple of seasons. Just like Sundin, Kessel seems to make players on his line better. We aren't talking about the Grabovski type "I can only play with Kulemin" players.

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11-01-2012, 09:33 AM
  #718
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He needs another defenseman to really bring out Phaneuf. Phaneuf in my estimation is probably 15-18 at his position playing with a really weak top line partner. He's also being asked to play top PP minutes and PK all with below average top line partners.

I do believe we have those in our system, if Gardiner can hold is own more in his own end and if Reilly develops to his potential.
This is what people forget when they constantly bash Phaneuf, while praising how good Gunnarsson is. The fact that you rate him so high even beside a player that belongs nowhere near a first pairing on a regular basis is a high praise on Phaneuf. I wonder how Weber, for instance, would rate playing on a run and gun team in front of Reimer, and beside Gunnarsson.

Sure, there are a few franchise defensemen I'd rather have over him, but I'm very happy that we have him, at least, and are not using the awesome Gunnarsson (and I like the guy) as our #1D.

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And I agree. I am not the biggest Burke supporter and although a blow hard is hardly a stupid man. Next year has to show progress in the standings. Realistically, if some luck in this draft a top 5 pick is going to garner the Leafs and Burke a real cornerstone (given up on any hockey being played this year). Either Jones or one of the centers will fill a significant void moving forward.
I don't have much faith in a top 5 pick being "awarded" to the Leafs in a lockout lottery. If here is hockey to be played this season, and the new CBA presents some opportunities, we may not even get a whiff of a top 5 pick. The only way I see us with another blue chipper next season is if Burke stays put, and does nothing for a season.

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Goaltending. This is a MUST. The team hasn't made the playoffs since Belfour left. Reimer has 0 glove hand and at times is far too passive in the net to play well. I have not given up on the kid but this team needs above average goaltending to succeed. That is a a huge hole.
Not to mention that he drops on his knees in the prayer position before the shot even leaves the opponents' stick far too often. And that he's just dreadful at handling the puck, and making decisions behind the net, yet he decides to go for a skate at least once a game.

Goaltending is indeed a must. Just decent goaltending alone could get us in the playoffs. Getting stuck with Luongo's contract in return for the few good years he has remaining would not be my ideal situation, but I guess it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to the team.

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11-01-2012, 09:40 AM
  #719
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post

Not to mention that he drops on his knees in the prayer position before the shot even leaves the opponents' stick far too often. And that he's just dreadful at handling the puck, and making decisions behind the net, yet he decides to go for a skate at least once a game.

Goaltending is indeed a must. Just decent goaltending alone could get us in the playoffs. Getting stuck with Luongo's contract in return for the few good years he has remaining would not be my ideal situation, but I guess it wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to the team.
Some people believe Burke is a great GM, and he said Allaire was crap and obsolete.

Burke hired Allaire to teach his goaltenders an obsolete style of playing net.

Maybe we should wait until a competent goaltender coach works with Reimer and gang?

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11-01-2012, 09:53 AM
  #720
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Some people believe Burke is a great GM, and he said Allaire was crap and obsolete.

Burke hired Allaire to teach his goaltenders an obsolete style of playing net.

Maybe we should wait until a competent goaltender coach works with Reimer and gang?
That "obsolete style" of looking big and playing the percentages has been Reimer's style before Allaire ever got here, afaik. On paper, at least, Reimer and Allaire looked like a good fit. Let's face it, we're not exactly talking about a goalie with Thomas' or Hasek's athletic ability.

If we were talking about Gus last season, then I'd agree with you. Trying to convert him to a different style was beyond retarded.

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11-01-2012, 11:22 AM
  #721
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
No. THe Red LIght doesn't help either.



Really I thought they were both made to make the team better?
So the Leafs are better because of the Kessel trade? Better than what? Columbus and Edmonton. Hardly anything to pound your chest about. Keep up the good work.

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11-01-2012, 12:26 PM
  #722
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Okay, so since Burke's team is leaps and bounds better, which 8 prospects would you have on the team from the drafts that just passed?

2009 top 7 pick +37th. (no change)
2010 top 1 pick +31st. (worse than 2nd. last)
2011 top 5 pick +35th. (worse than 9th. last)
2012 top 3 pick +33rd. (worse than 5th. last)

We'd have to add those to have a real comparison. Obviously, the team gets those picks whether Burke or a pet rock was GM.

Have to add the picks from the Antropov, Ponikarovsky, and Kaberle trades as well. But could just include the actuals from those trades. Afterall, those picks are from the scouts anyway.

I'd suggest just using McKenzie's picks from the drafts in question, that's something that doesn't take anyone with ability to make. McKenzie just uses multiple NHL scouts lists and averages them out. Bob isn't a scout, he's just someone with a spreadsheet.

If the original team was retained without making the UFA signings, et cetera, the team would still have added prospects via the guaranteed picks rules of the NHL. As I mentioned, a pet rock running the team would still have received those draft picks, and without even hiring a scouting staff you could just use Bob McKenzie to draft your players.
Why do I have to add anything to JFJ's time! He had his own drafts to fill the team. I'm not going to start adding players from after he left to compare his time with anything. Makes no sense.

The question was: Was JFJ's team at the end of his tenure better than Burke's team is now if his tenure was to end. Also keep in mind I believe Ferguson was here for a little longer than Burke.

The answer: Heeeeelllllllll NO!

There is not one player from his team that I would want back even based on that year or now. There is a handful from this team that I would if they were traded.

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11-01-2012, 01:29 PM
  #723
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Why do I have to add anything to JFJ's time! He had his own drafts to fill the team. I'm not going to start adding players from after he left to compare his time with anything. Makes no sense.

The question was: Was JFJ's team at the end of his tenure better than Burke's team is now if his tenure was to end. Also keep in mind I believe Ferguson was here for a little longer than Burke.

The answer: Heeeeelllllllll NO!

There is not one player from his team that I would want back even based on that year or now. There is a handful from this team that I would if they were traded.
LOL

If we can't run the clock forward, then JFj's team is better.

Burke's team is a bottom 5 team that had 80 points and JFj's last team had 91 points.

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11-01-2012, 01:31 PM
  #724
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One thing we should be able to agree on is that Kadri is expendable without any hesitation today.

Kadri and Finn wouldn't be missed, and could land Luongo to fill a gaping need.

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11-01-2012, 01:59 PM
  #725
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Ok using ULFs gm game we is techincally impossible because we really have no idea how a gm would have added or what they would have got for any of our young players or if they let them go to free agency. Or more importantly who the GM would have drafted in this unpredictable draft year. Even with that.....

So This is how our first rounders would have looked, using everyones favorite package of Seguin and hamilton and even allowing for Hotpaws assertion that gerber cost us Schenn.

Since the lockout:

2005: Nothing
2006: Tlusty --Replaceable no better than MacArthur, a freebie, at best
2007: Nothing
2008: Luke Schenn--Maybe top 4 d now, but has defensive potential
2009: Brayden Schenn--Top 6 player, worse ppg than kadri
2010: Seguin--All star right winger, almost 30 goals and 65 pts
2011: Hamilton-- Blue chip D prospect, but only a point above finn but and a year older
2012:??????--- Maybe forsberg? Maybe Lindholm etc. A

What we have ended up with

2005: Nothing of value
2006: Phil Kessel (top 6 in pts last year, 8th in goals since 2008), leads his draft year in goals allstar/olympian
2007: JVR--top 6 forward, second overall, has shown flashes of Dominance
2008: Gardiner---Nhl all rookie team, blue chip d
Colborne--player with potential, jury still out.
2009: Kadri-- similar ppg to schenn
Ashton-- Maybe third line grinder?
2010: Nothing.
2011: Biggs and Percy
2012: Reilly.

This isnt even including Lupul and Dion. So as far as prospect youth forwards.

It is
Kessel------Seguin
JVR---------Tlusty
Kadri--------Brayden
Colborne-----Even add in knight.
Biggs
Ashton

So really, I would easily take JVR and Kessel over Seguin, and Kadri, Biggs, Colborne, Ashton probably over Knight, Tlusty and Schenn.

As Far as Defense
it is
Reilly------Hamilton
Gardiner--------Schenn
Percy---------UK.

So far as defense goes: Reilly and Hamilton are probably about even. They are both blue chip D who have proven nothing. Gardiner and Schenn is not even close. Ultimately we have no idea who another GM would have picked Would they probably be better than percy, ok, but then would GM X draft finn in round 2?

We can argue semantics and well he traded 4th round picks etc and magically assume they would have turned into superstars, but realistically, He still got Mac, Bozak, Lupul for free that would probably turn into better than anything that he would have drafted in the 3rd round. In fact players like damigo and finn might have as well.

But looking at it like this, all the tank supporters have to realize that they werent likely to get a group that is all that much better than Burkes in Pure drafting from the lockout on....

In Fact I could easily see that Kessel and Phaneuf (burkes 2 biggest assests to date) may easily be the best 2 players by far.....

Either way, even in these dream scenarios where things work out exactly as planned, and the prospects always go up up and away, I still dont think we are worse off. And the best part is... Our prospects are known proven commodities.

Its hilarious to me that Burkes destruction of the future in a worse case scenario is comparable to the tankers best case scenario......

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