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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

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Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
11-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #726
7even
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
One thing we should be able to agree on is that Kadri is expendable without any hesitation today.

Kadri and Finn wouldn't be missed, and could land Luongo to fill a gaping need.
Likely, but how much of a difference would Luongo make? Is this team ready to win now, or would Lu just bump us back to 8-10 in the conference territory?

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11-01-2012, 03:49 PM
  #727
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Likely, but how much of a difference would Luongo make? Is this team ready to win now, or would Lu just bump us back to 8-10 in the conference territory?
Good question. He certainly didn't make enough of a diff in Florida. I suspect he would crumble in Toronto. I suppose he could have one or two seasons where he helps the team but there is a high percentage it goes sour before long. Seen it so many times.

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11-01-2012, 05:18 PM
  #728
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Likely, but how much of a difference would Luongo make? Is this team ready to win now, or would Lu just bump us back to 8-10 in the conference territory?
That's my issue. Luongo makes us better to get 6-8 in the conference but our draft picks will be far worse. Is that really the best thing for this franchise?

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11-01-2012, 05:25 PM
  #729
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Good question. He certainly didn't make enough of a diff in Florida. I suspect he would crumble in Toronto. I suppose he could have one or two seasons where he helps the team but there is a high percentage it goes sour before long. Seen it so many times.
He was fantastic in Florida. Not sure if at his age he can be that good again and yet they never saw the playoffs once.

This is a massive risk. I don't think people see that.

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11-01-2012, 08:31 PM
  #730
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Originally Posted by AmazedRink View Post
One was an RFA sheet trade and the other was a deadline rental. C'mon now.
There was no RFA Offersheet made to Boston at any time.


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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Some people believe Burke is a great GM, and he said Allaire was crap and obsolete.

Burke hired Allaire to teach his goaltenders an obsolete style of playing net.

Maybe we should wait until a competent goaltender coach works with Reimer and gang?
When Burke Hired Allaire he was considered the best goalie coach in the world. So how can you fault Burke for hirign the concensus best in the world. Allaire was a big part in all the UFA goalie signings we made.

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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
So the Leafs are better because of the Kessel trade? Better than what? Columbus and Edmonton. Hardly anything to pound your chest about. Keep up the good work.
YOu think the LEafs without KEssel are a better team?

That makes no sense at all.

Kessel is an elite player. Taking him out of the lineup is not going to improve the team.

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11-01-2012, 08:41 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Okay, so since Burke's team is leaps and bounds better, which 8 prospects would you have on the team from the drafts that just passed?

2009 top 7 pick +37th. (no change)
2010 top 1 pick +31st. (worse than 2nd. last)
2011 top 5 pick +35th. (worse than 9th. last)
2012 top 3 pick +33rd. (worse than 5th. last)

We'd have to add those to have a real comparison. Obviously, the team gets those picks whether Burke or a pet rock was GM.

Have to add the picks from the Antropov, Ponikarovsky, and Kaberle trades as well. But could just include the actuals from those trades. Afterall, those picks are from the scouts anyway.

I'd suggest just using McKenzie's picks from the drafts in question, that's something that doesn't take anyone with ability to make. McKenzie just uses multiple NHL scouts lists and averages them out. Bob isn't a scout, he's just someone with a spreadsheet.

If the original team was retained without making the UFA signings, et cetera, the team would still have added prospects via the guaranteed picks rules of the NHL. As I mentioned, a pet rock running the team would still have received those draft picks, and without even hiring a scouting staff you could just use Bob McKenzie to draft your players.
Right Bobby MAc and his amazing crystal ball of the past. Peering into the world of what MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

Give me a break. It's just as likely the guys fighting for their jobs like they were in 08-09 finish higher in the standings than the stripped down versions of the team that played under Burke.

You're going to run into a Devereaux or a Gerber who completly screws up your plans.

PLaying What if can be fun but it gets you nothing.

What if the Muskoka 5 had all waived and been traded for picks? Does your crystal ball say we would be a contender now?

What if Sullivan had turned into Marty St. Louis?

What if Belfour had only been 33yrs old?

What if Roberts and Mogilny had been healthy?

See? Fun.

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11-01-2012, 09:20 PM
  #732
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Ok using ULFs gm game we is techincally impossible because we really have no idea how a gm would have added or what they would have got for any of our young players or if they let them go to free agency. Or more importantly who the GM would have drafted in this unpredictable draft year. Even with that.....

So This is how our first rounders would have looked, using everyones favorite package of Seguin and hamilton and even allowing for Hotpaws assertion that gerber cost us Schenn.

Since the lockout:

2005: Nothing
2006: Tlusty --Replaceable no better than MacArthur, a freebie, at best
2007: Nothing
2008: Luke Schenn--Maybe top 4 d now, but has defensive potential
2009: Brayden Schenn--Top 6 player, worse ppg than kadri
2010: Seguin--All star right winger, almost 30 goals and 65 pts
2011: Hamilton-- Blue chip D prospect, but only a point above finn but and a year older
2012:??????--- Maybe forsberg? Maybe Lindholm etc. A

What we have ended up with

2005: Nothing of value
2006: Phil Kessel (top 6 in pts last year, 8th in goals since 2008), leads his draft year in goals allstar/olympian
2007: JVR--top 6 forward, second overall, has shown flashes of Dominance
2008: Gardiner---Nhl all rookie team, blue chip d
Colborne--player with potential, jury still out.
2009: Kadri-- similar ppg to schenn
Ashton-- Maybe third line grinder?
2010: Nothing.
2011: Biggs and Percy
2012: Reilly.

This isnt even including Lupul and Dion. So as far as prospect youth forwards.

It is
Kessel------Seguin
JVR---------Tlusty
Kadri--------Brayden
Colborne-----Even add in knight.
Biggs
Ashton

So really, I would easily take JVR and Kessel over Seguin, and Kadri, Biggs, Colborne, Ashton probably over Knight, Tlusty and Schenn.

As Far as Defense
it is
Reilly------Hamilton
Gardiner--------Schenn
Percy---------UK.

So far as defense goes: Reilly and Hamilton are probably about even. They are both blue chip D who have proven nothing. Gardiner and Schenn is not even close. Ultimately we have no idea who another GM would have picked Would they probably be better than percy, ok, but then would GM X draft finn in round 2?

We can argue semantics and well he traded 4th round picks etc and magically assume they would have turned into superstars, but realistically, He still got Mac, Bozak, Lupul for free that would probably turn into better than anything that he would have drafted in the 3rd round. In fact players like damigo and finn might have as well.

But looking at it like this, all the tank supporters have to realize that they werent likely to get a group that is all that much better than Burkes in Pure drafting from the lockout on....

In Fact I could easily see that Kessel and Phaneuf (burkes 2 biggest assests to date) may easily be the best 2 players by far.....

Either way, even in these dream scenarios where things work out exactly as planned, and the prospects always go up up and away, I still dont think we are worse off. And the best part is... Our prospects are known proven commodities.

Its hilarious to me that Burkes destruction of the future in a worse case scenario is comparable to the tankers best case scenario......
How the heck does Kessel make the team worse?

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11-01-2012, 09:35 PM
  #733
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Likely, but how much of a difference would Luongo make? Is this team ready to win now, or would Lu just bump us back to 8-10 in the conference territory?
Luongo is under contract longer than any other Leafs' player.

Luongo would make a huge difference.

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11-01-2012, 09:38 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
When Burke Hired Allaire he was considered the best goalie coach in the world. So how can you fault Burke for hirign the concensus best in the world. Allaire was a big part in all the UFA goalie signings we made.


Burke considered Allaire a good goalie coach earlier this year.

Time certainly flies ... or someone wasn't being honest.

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11-01-2012, 09:41 PM
  #735
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Right Bobby MAc and his amazing crystal ball of the past. Peering into the world of what MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

Give me a break. It's just as likely the guys fighting for their jobs like they were in 08-09 finish higher in the standings than the stripped down versions of the team that played under Burke.

You're going to run into a Devereaux or a Gerber who completly screws up your plans.

PLaying What if can be fun but it gets you nothing.

What if the Muskoka 5 had all waived and been traded for picks? Does your crystal ball say we would be a contender now?

What if Sullivan had turned into Marty St. Louis?

What if Belfour had only been 33yrs old?

What if Roberts and Mogilny had been healthy?

See? Fun.
Well if we just want to dwell on actuals.

5th. worst team in the league and middle of the road prospects.

That's easy.

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11-01-2012, 10:28 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post


Burke considered Allaire a good goalie coach earlier this year.

Time certainly flies ... or someone wasn't being honest.
BUrke stands behind his people. He wouldn't be bashing his goalie coach in the media. Much like he wasn't bashing Wilson when he fired him.

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11-01-2012, 10:29 PM
  #737
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Well if we just want to dwell on actuals.

5th. worst team in the league and middle of the road prospects.

That's easy.
2 Point per game Forwards and 2 top pairing Defensemen.

Yes this is very easy.

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11-01-2012, 10:41 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
2 Point per game Forwards and 2 top pairing Defensemen.

Yes this is very easy.
At least you're easy to please. Never let something as small as standings or rankings get in the way of some hero worship. Cheers kid!

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11-01-2012, 10:50 PM
  #739
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At least you're easy to please. Never let something as small as standings or rankings get in the way of some hero worship. Cheers kid!
It's called not letting standings or completely meaningless rankings in any given year during a work-in-progress phase get in the way of the fact that we have greatly superior players and prospects who can be part of the winning-a-stanley-cup phase over the next decade+.

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11-01-2012, 10:55 PM
  #740
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It's called not letting standings or completely meaningless rankings in any given year during a work-in-progress phase get in the way of the fact that we have greatly superior players and prospects who can be part of the winning-a-stanley-cup phase over the next decade+.
If we had "greatly superior players and prospects" we wouldn't have finished 5th last and our prospects wouldn't be ranked where they currently are. I like the Leafs as well, but lets try to be realistic here.

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11-01-2012, 11:08 PM
  #741
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
If we had "greatly superior players and prospects" we wouldn't have finished 5th last and our prospects wouldn't be ranked where they currently are. I like the Leafs as well, but lets try to be realistic here.
Of course we would. A team can do significantly better or worse in any given year for so many reasons.

Look at St Louis as a recent example.

Supporting players can make a huge difference, even if the core is perfect. A coach can make a huge difference even if the entire team is perfect. Injuries can make a huge difference no matter what the team. Youth can make a huge difference even if all the players are great. Even just dumb luck. Heck, something as small as your schedule or when you play certain teams can make a huge difference in the standings. Or when certain goals or scored, when players have good/bad games, chemistry, streaks, personal player situations, etc.

Rankings are completely worthless in evaluating prospects/teams. There is always bias, criteria/cut-offs that make some teams look worse and some better, inconsistency among teams and evaluations, differing importance of certain skills, etc.

There is a reason why all these rankings and scouting reports have such differing views, even among NHL scouts and people who see these players play every day, which most of these rankings are not made by. Heck, look at the draft. Usually only the 1st or 2nd overall pick are consensus among all teams, and many times not even all.

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11-01-2012, 11:42 PM
  #742
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At least you're easy to please. Never let something as small as standings or rankings get in the way of some hero worship. Cheers kid!
If you can't see the difference between a team led by Blake and Stajan and one led by Kessel and Grabo that is not my problem.

Hagman or JVR?
Antropov or Lupul?
Kulemin or Ponikarovski?

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11-01-2012, 11:49 PM
  #743
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If we had "greatly superior players and prospects" we wouldn't have finished 5th last and our prospects wouldn't be ranked where they currently are. I like the Leafs as well, but lets try to be realistic here.
LAK sucked for the 1st half of the season. Then won the Stanley cup.

Boston was last early in the year then won the division.

Toronto and EDM both had great starts to the year but faltered. EDM sooner than the Leafs.

Ya those rankings are pretty fluid. One player can drop a team a long way.

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11-02-2012, 04:08 AM
  #744
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It takes a special kind of fanbase to accept being the richest team in the entire league, yet still have the longest Stanley Cup drought and playoff drought.

We still sell out every night. Still buy the jersey's. Still subscribe to Leaf TV.

Our GM's can do no wrong, while they're here. The second they leave is of course a different story.
We largely approved of JFJ at the time (as evidence by the linked thread earlier), now see him as the cause of our current misfortunes.

We LOVE the Raycroft trade at the time (acquiring a early 20's Calder Cup winner?), and now call it the worst trade we've lived through.

We thought the Kessel trade was a STEAL, because both picks would DEFINITELY be in 20's somewhere.

The standings don't matter. Prospect rankings don't matter. Facts. Evidence. None of it matters. We'll find some loophole. "We have better overall talent." "Just need to fill a few gaps." "People have too high of expectations..." (lol.richest team, longest cup and playoff droughts...)
Next year is ALWAYS going to be the year where things begin to turn around.
And we'll buy our tickets, pay our fee's, wear our jersey's.
If we get eliminated from the playoffs... no worry... why? Because there's always next year. That's the year things will be different... as long as we keep having "patience" for our current gm who's fixing all the damages caused by the previous GM's which we blindly approved of during their reigns.


Now we currently have a GM that has finished bottom 10 four years in a row. Two of those years we didn't even have our first round picks. We just finished 5th last in the standings (2 worse than when he arrived) and our prospects are ranked lower by pretty much everybody who ranks prospects.

But history repeats itself... The standings DON'T matter. Every single person that assesses our prospects is WRONG. NEXT year is our year. The same loopholes and twisting of logic "Sure... we're a worse team in every possible way... but Kessel scores more goals than Antropov".
We just need more patience.
And the facts that constantly prove us wrong?
No matter... there's always spin, rhetoric, and lies.

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11-02-2012, 05:01 AM
  #745
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We LOVE the Raycroft trade at the time (acquiring a early 20's Calder Cup winner?), and now call it the worst trade we've lived through.
Might want to go check that thread again. Then again, you probably know what you're spouting are flat-out lies.

Still waiting on that reply from the last thread.

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The standings don't matter. Prospect rankings don't matter. Facts. Evidence.
Standings don't really matter all that much in a rebuild, and even when not in a rebuild, by itself it means little.

Prospect rankings don't matter. At least you're learning.

Facts matter, but unfortunately you don't have any of those. Nor do you have any context, and without that, facts are useless anyway. You have the same spin lines and emotional reactions you post in every single thread, without the ability to back any of it up or address points brought against you.

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11-02-2012, 05:37 AM
  #746
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"He uses statistics the way a drunkard uses a light pole; for support rather than illumination."

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11-02-2012, 08:33 AM
  #747
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Raycroft set the record for most wins in a season by a Leafs' goaltender in 2006-2007.
Kessel was a PPG in 2011-2012.

Meaningless stats as neither team made it out of the regular season.

I like the future of Kessel better, but the team needs to find some stronger character leaders so that Kessel can slide into the sniper role without being responsible for anything else. Kind of like then the Rangers dealt Mike Gartner to the Leafs for Anderson because Gartner was about scoring and little else.

Gartner scored over 20 goals 15 straight seasons, with many over 30 and 40 goals. He was a sniper, and that is what you got and there is nothing wrong with that.

Burke has to address the issues on this team. Sure Wilson was inept, but you certainly have to look at the team Burke has built and understand it is rudderless on the ice.

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11-02-2012, 09:09 AM
  #748
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Luongo is under contract longer than any other Leafs' player.

Luongo would make a huge difference.
Being under contract for the next decade would be more beneficial if he were 25. Luongo is a diminishing return and essentially forces this club into a "win now" mentality by defining how long it's competitive. And if that coincides with the emergence of Reimer as a legitimate starter, then fantastic, and we end up with a situation similar to Vancouver currently, where Luongo is non-integral to team success. If not, though, then we'd be kinda screwed and it's hello 2007/8/9 again. It's an interesting situation.

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11-02-2012, 09:14 AM
  #749
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Being under contract for the next decade would be more beneficial if he were 25. Luongo is a diminishing return and essentially forces this club into a "win now" mentality by defining how long it's competitive. And if that coincides with the emergence of Reimer as a legitimate starter, then fantastic, and we end up with a situation similar to Vancouver currently, where Luongo is non-integral to team success. If not, though, then we'd be kinda screwed and it's hello 2007/8/9 again. It's an interesting situation.
I think he'd give them 5-6 years of good goaltending.

That doesn't preclude the team from grooming a replacement, and would allow the players to have more confidence.

Burke has restocked the cupboards so they don't need to worry about drafting high.

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11-02-2012, 09:33 AM
  #750
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I hated the Raycroft trade the second it was announced. So unnecessary. Manny Legace wanted to play for the Leafs for peanuts.

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