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Keep Burke or not if it was your choice?

View Poll Results: Ye or Na
Yes 155 71.43%
No 62 28.57%
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Old
10-29-2012, 05:33 PM
  #201
Krazy
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
You do realize that Burke allowed JSG to walk away for nothing. He also is still paying Armstrong to play for the Habs.

You have a nice twist on things.....here is mine:

I would rather have Seguin, Hamilton. Knight, Schenn, and Aulie.
Over Kessel, JVR and Ashton. My twist is that 3 trades do not happen.....yours?
Ok here is the point. You have to look at his record in its entirety. Thats the only way to judge his performance. The burke detractors are mad because he traded two first round picks for 1 first round pick 3 years ago. What I am showing is that he added 15 first round picks to his team that have actively contributed to his roster. No team has that record. I completely realize that some of his acquisitions have not worked out.... Well guess what, I gaurantee some first round picks that people have will not work out..... The point is that he has added more young talent and first round talent, to his team in the past 3.5 years than any other gm.


But instead of course you will be one of the revisionists who seem to pick and choose a completely alternate reality that does not exist where the leafs could have Aulie, Seguin and Hamilton. Even though Aulie would not be here without burke and we have no way of knowing where the other teams would have finished without 2 years of burke.

Bottom line is if you look at the total ammount of first round picks he has added he is at least +10. If you look at gauranteed NHL players he is way above where the best drafters save pitt/wash/chicago are.

The ammount and pedigree of talent burke has added is way above what your average tanking GM could have accomplished.. Think About it, how many teams would have a better first round draft record than:

2001: Komisarek, Armstrong
2002: Lupul
2003: Phaneuf
2004: Andy Rogers
2005: Lashoff
2006: Kessel
2007: JVR
2008: Gardiner, Colborne
2009: Kadri, Ashton
2010
2011: Bigs, Percy
2012: Reilly.

Not that many. Now compress that into 3.5 years. He has added way more talent to the team, both proven and projected, thats why I like what Burke has done.

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Old
10-29-2012, 05:46 PM
  #202
Socratic Method Man
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
False dilemma go troll someone else's board.
No trolling. I've been legitimately curious about that for a while now, because every time I see the topic come up on the main boards, I by and large see Leafs fans supporting Kessel over Seguin/Hamilton. So I've been curious. That's all.

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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Seguin would already be declared a bust around here by now. He, no doubt would have been yanked back and forth between the Marlies and the Leafs for the past two seasons.

Also, why is Reilly/Galchenyuk included in the question?
I included Rielly because, from my perspective, he looks to be a future star that Toronto will be based around, along with Kessel.

I included Galchenyuk because, if you guys didn't have Kessel, it seems plausible that you may have finished lower than 5th overall last year, and perhaps been able to draft Galchenyuk instead of Rielly, if you so desired.


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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
I can't even believe this question needs to be asked.

Seguin by himself holds more value to a REBUILDING team than Kessel does/has.
Hamilton has all the makings of another future star.

Its a no brainer.
I don't know about a no-brainer. It's hard to measure them because they're all so young, and Hamilton isn't even in the NHL yet. But if Hamilton lives up to what he is supposed to become, and Seguin continues the way he has been going, then the choice should become clear - unless Kessel goes out of his mind and starts playing like two superstar players combined.

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10-29-2012, 06:04 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
No trolling. I've been legitimately curious about that for a while now, because every time I see the topic come up on the main boards, I by and large see Leafs fans supporting Kessel over Seguin/Hamilton. So I've been curious. That's all.


I included Rielly because, from my perspective, he looks to be a future star that Toronto will be based around, along with Kessel.

I included Galchenyuk because, if you guys didn't have Kessel, it seems plausible that you may have finished lower than 5th overall last year, and perhaps been able to draft Galchenyuk instead of Rielly, if you so desired.



I don't know about a no-brainer. It's hard to measure them because they're all so young, and Hamilton isn't even in the NHL yet. But if Hamilton lives up to what he is supposed to become, and Seguin continues the way he has been going, then the choice should become clear - unless Kessel goes out of his mind and starts playing like two superstar players combined.
Again.
1.) you cannot predict that if burke was let go where the leafs would have finished.
2.) You also cannot predict where other teams would have drafted if burke wasnt gm so not necessarily hamilton.

EVEN making these false and ridiculous assumptions:

I would pick Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul Gardiner, Colborne, biggs Reilly, over seguin, Hamilton, and Galy

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:37 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
http://www.thestar.com/sports

Toronto writers report on the low points of Toronto's 4 major sports franchises:

Feschuk:

"One might assume the Leafs would have spent the last six months repairing the huge holes in the roster. And yet Burke, who spoke in April of a need to retool the talent...has done next to nothing of the sort."
Why the heck would Burke sign anyone when he does not know what the new CBA will be?

Feschuk is just stirring the pot to get hits on his blog. That is his job after all.

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10-29-2012, 06:43 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Ok here is the point. You have to look at his record in its entirety. Thats the only way to judge his performance. The burke detractors are mad because he traded two first round picks for 1 first round pick 3 years ago. What I am showing is that he added 15 first round picks to his team that have actively contributed to his roster. No team has that record. I completely realize that some of his acquisitions have not worked out.... Well guess what, I gaurantee some first round picks that people have will not work out..... The point is that he has added more young talent and first round talent, to his team in the past 3.5 years than any other gm.


But instead of course you will be one of the revisionists who seem to pick and choose a completely alternate reality that does not exist where the leafs could have Aulie, Seguin and Hamilton. Even though Aulie would not be here without burke and we have no way of knowing where the other teams would have finished without 2 years of burke.

Bottom line is if you look at the total ammount of first round picks he has added he is at least +10. If you look at gauranteed NHL players he is way above where the best drafters save pitt/wash/chicago are.

The ammount and pedigree of talent burke has added is way above what your average tanking GM could have accomplished.. Think About it, how many teams would have a better first round draft record than:

2001: Komisarek, Armstrong
2002: Lupul
2003: Phaneuf
2004: Andy Rogers
2005: Lashoff
2006: Kessel
2007: JVR
2008: Gardiner, Colborne
2009: Kadri, Ashton
2010
2011: Bigs, Percy
2012: Reilly.

Not that many. Now compress that into 3.5 years. He has added way more talent to the team, both proven and projected, thats why I like what Burke has done.
Where a player was drafted is not at all a good idea to toss into an debate when the debate is about talent.

Some of the players listed would not be drafted until much later in the draft was to occur again....So are we going to build a Stanley Cup Winner using others cast offs?

I do not think so.

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:44 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post

I would pick Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul Gardiner, Colborne, biggs Reilly, over seguin, Hamilton, and Galy
So you are pleased with the Kessel trade?

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Agreed

He has 2 years remaining on his contract, and he is entering season 5 of his tenure. Now the question becomes how much time is left?

A GM's job is to balance current success with future success simultaneously to retain his job.

Case in point .. Former Hawks GM Dale Tallon drafted Toews, Keith and Kane for Chicago, and his replacement Stan Bowman won the Cup after his dismissal. LA GM Dave Taylor drafted Jonathan Quick, Dustin Brown and Kopitar for LA but was released for the teams struggles, only to have new GM Lombardi hoist the Stanley Cup on the back of his future work. Previous GMs brought in eventual Conn Smythe winners for his team, but didn't get to enjoy the rewards as time ran out. Time ran out for these GMs and stock piling the prospect pool didn't save them, because current team performance resulted in their dismissal.

Time is at the discretion of Ownership who control the fate of the GM and evaluate his performance on an annual basis, and decide if he is meeting their expectations and achieving their goals. Since the standard goal of any season is playoffs and competing for the Stanley Cup, its safe to say Burke is not meeting those in Toronto.
What would you rather have.

Scenario A: GM has 5 years to continue building team. So he continues to acquire young 1st round picks both future and past, and making the organization deeper and stronger for the future.

Scenario B: GM has two years and a mandate to immediately make the post season. So he starts trading the previously acquired youth on questionable veterns who might only have 2-3 good years left in them, if any at all, in an attempt to make the playoffs. (Toskala, Blake, Raycroft, Stempniak, Nolan etc.)

Right now is the time to extend Burke and the duration of that extension is 3 years.

MLSE has more than enough money to pay Burke for a couple of years if we're still drafting in the lottery in 2014.

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10-29-2012, 06:54 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
So you are pleased with the Kessel trade?
I was fine with the deal when it happened.

I think Kessel is still the best player of the deal.

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10-29-2012, 07:00 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Where a player was drafted is not at all a good idea to toss into an debate when the debate is about talent.

Some of the players listed would not be drafted until much later in the draft was to occur again....So are we going to build a Stanley Cup Winner using others cast offs?

I do not think so.
I agree. The point that burke detractors always point out is that he traded away first round picks and youth to try to win now. The point I am making is that if you actually look at it, he has added way more youth and first rounders.

I dont care about draft position personally.... The best player who ever lived was never drafted...

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10-29-2012, 07:04 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by DaveT83 View Post
We should have a Stickied thread where the facts/evidence debunking Burke supporters myths/arguments can be found and easily referred to - so we don't have to regurgitate the same things over and over in every thread.
That sentiment works both ways buddy.

The Anti Burke movement has regurgitated debunked "facts" just as much.

All the while they fail to provide a solution. JUst who is better to take over?

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10-29-2012, 07:06 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
So you are pleased with the Kessel trade?
In a word yes. We picked up an elite top scorer a known commodity at 21 for 3 unknowns.

I would have traded the next 2 first rounders for Tavares this year too.

Do I think it worked out much better for boston than I expected? Absolutely. But again we have no idea how it would have worked out for Toronto if they kept the picks.

We dont know if Toronto would have signed cammilleri and he played lights out for the first 12 games and toronto gets the 4th pick....

If burke wasnt trying to make the team better than maybe no Beauch which means no lupul and gardiner.... If he was trying to tank maybe no Dion..... If Chiarelli got fleeced in the deal then maybe All we get from boston is a second. No liles, Colborne, Biggs....

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10-29-2012, 07:15 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Where a player was drafted is not at all a good idea to toss into an debate when the debate is about talent.

Some of the players listed would not be drafted until much later in the draft was to occur again....So are we going to build a Stanley Cup Winner using others cast offs?

I do not think so.
IF you're taking a gamble on a player the percentages say you're gonna have better luck with a 1st than a 4th.

PLayers like Connolly and Komi have shown potential. If both had worked out we'd be talking about having a statue built in Burke's image to put at Union Station.

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10-29-2012, 07:16 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
No trolling. I've been legitimately curious about that for a while now, because every time I see the topic come up on the main boards, I by and large see Leafs fans supporting Kessel over Seguin/Hamilton. So I've been curious. That's all.
Huh. Because 90% of the time I see you on the main boards, you're bashing the Leafs in some capacity, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm doubtful of your intentions when I see you on the Leafs board in a Burke thread asking about the Kessel trade.

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10-29-2012, 07:32 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
In a word yes. We picked up an elite top scorer a known commodity at 21 for 3 unknowns.

I would have traded the next 2 first rounders for Tavares this year too.

Do I think it worked out much better for boston than I expected? Absolutely. But again we have no idea how it would have worked out for Toronto if they kept the picks.

We dont know if Toronto would have signed cammilleri and he played lights out for the first 12 games and toronto gets the 4th pick....

If burke wasnt trying to make the team better than maybe no Beauch which means no lupul and gardiner.... If he was trying to tank maybe no Dion..... If Chiarelli got fleeced in the deal then maybe All we get from boston is a second. No liles, Colborne, Biggs....
a better comparison to today with the Kessel trade would be Skinner or Max Pac, not an 80 pt franchise center...

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10-29-2012, 07:32 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Your a season ticket holder, so did you get a Larry Tanenbaum apology letter in your season ticket renewal package?

If not Tanenbaum's letter read as follows.



Tanenbaum in his own words, used the word "only" in his results oriented speech.

How do you interpret the owners own words for the average fan to understand?
The results of the Marlies speak volumes.

The results up until the All-star break spoke volumes.

The collapse also spoke volumes and cost Wilson his job.

Would the results have been different had Colborne been healthy and able to fill in for LUpul? Maybe?

Would the results have been different if Kulemin hadn't had the worst Snake-bit season I think I have ever seen? An extra 20 goals from Kules would have won us a few games.

But ya it is the result that matters and it is time for some playoffs.

Tank nation no more.

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10-29-2012, 07:44 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Huh. Because 90% of the time I see you on the main boards, you're bashing the Leafs in some capacity, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm doubtful of your intentions when I see you on the Leafs board in a Burke thread asking about the Kessel trade.
Just bringing a little gasoline to the bonfire.

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10-29-2012, 07:46 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
a better comparison to today with the Kessel trade would be Skinner or Max Pac, not an 80 pt franchise center...
NO I Think Kessel v Tavares is much closer than Skinner or Max Pac.

Seeing as how Kessel out scores Tavares and is a franchise player in his own right.

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10-29-2012, 07:50 PM
  #218
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These names:

Kazzer, Lupul, Kessel, Reims, Dion, Connolly, Gards, Mo-Riles, Scrivens, Kul-aid-man, Grabonkski, Gunn, Biggs, Purse-man Percy, etc.

Wouldn't you rather have:

Richards, Price, Perry, Nash, Landeskog, Staal, Ward, Yakupov, Benn, Chara, etc.

i can't believe we're actually talking about these really unimportant leafs in the grander scale of things.

No one seems to care with this fan base. Burke needs a massive overhaul.

let's cheer for someone actually good for a change!



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10-29-2012, 07:59 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
These names:

Kazzer, Lupul, Kessel, Reims, Dion, Connolly, Gards, Mo-Riles, Scrivens, Kul-aid-man, Grabonkski, Gunn, Biggs, Purse-man Percy, etc.

Wouldn't you rather have:

Richards, Price, Perry, Nash, Landeskog, Staal, Ward, Yakupov, Benn, Chara, etc.

i can't believe we're actually talking about these really unimportant leafs in the grander scale of things.

No one seems to care with this fan base. Burke needs a massive overhaul.

let's cheer for someone actually good for a change!


I have no Idea how you would ever get all those players on the same team except in a video game.

As for cheering for someone good go knock yourself out hopping on what ever bandwagon suits your fancy.

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10-29-2012, 08:48 PM
  #220
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I have no Idea how you would ever get all those players on the same team except in a video game.

As for cheering for someone good go knock yourself out hopping on what ever bandwagon suits your fancy.
great comment!

i give you this years all-stars from the Leafs:

Lupul
Kessel
Dion

now if you were to choose an all-star line-up would you select these 3 first, second, and third?

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10-29-2012, 08:59 PM
  #221
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great comment!

i give you this years all-stars from the Leafs:

Lupul
Kessel
Dion

now if you were to choose an all-star line-up would you select these 3 first, second, and third?
How can you pick an all-star without seeing a game played?

Besides 3 All-Stars is pretty good representation.

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10-29-2012, 09:09 PM
  #222
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How can you pick an all-star without seeing a game played?

Besides 3 All-Stars is pretty good representation.
that makes no sense.

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10-29-2012, 09:09 PM
  #223
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I hate Brian Burke and his stupid philosophies! Get rid of him already! There must be at least one decent GM who's looking for a team right now!

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10-29-2012, 09:11 PM
  #224
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I hate Brian Burke and his stupid philosophies! Get rid of him already! There must be at least one decent GM who's looking for a team right now!
Please provide your list of better GMs that are availible.

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10-29-2012, 09:14 PM
  #225
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that makes no sense.
Now you know how everyone else feels when reading your posts.

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