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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Who here would like to see the NHL completely dissolve?

View Poll Results: Would you like to see the NHL crumble and see a new league created?
Yes 210 29.41%
No 504 70.59%
Voters: 714. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-11-2012, 09:54 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
No thanks.

No need to dissolve or decertify, just wait it out and eventually the players will sign.
Might take this year, or next, or the one after but it will happen.
Yes! And if the owners are willing to do that, then they damn well should setup an economic structure that works, works for the economic dynamics of the sport of hockey across the League; works for the League. Whatever such a dynamic ultimately is, yes players might be receiving smaller pay cheques than they do now, but still it'll be the kind of money that any of us would love to receive, and anyone who loves to play hockey should be happy to receive for doing something that they love.

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12-11-2012, 10:07 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Mork View Post
I think the NHL overestimates its market in Canada. Where I work (mid-town Toironto) most kids don't play or follow hockey.

When the cohort of current hockey fans thin out, succeding generations might support basketball, soccer or other actual participation sports in greater numbers instead.

I still think pro-hockey in one form or another will survive across North America, but it won't necessarily be the NHL. It could be the NHL, but who knows? They are their own worst enemy.
Exactly. You never know.

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12-11-2012, 10:12 AM
  #278
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How much do you think players would ask to be paid in this theoretical new league, and what caliber of players would they be?

Who would the owners of these teams be?

What sort of television deals could we get? Corporate sponsorship?

What kind of CBA would be negotiated?

The NHLPA and NHL haven't been able to negotiate an equitable CBA for 3 months now. That seems like a long time. But creating a new league, getting all the infrastructure in place, (which includes a new CBA) would take a couple of years minimum. To get it to the level of the NHL? A hundred.

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12-11-2012, 10:18 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Wings View Post
How much do you think players would ask to be paid in this theoretical new league, and what caliber of players would they be?

Who would the owners of these teams be?

What sort of television deals could we get? Corporate sponsorship?
There's no reason why players salaries should be hugely different than they are now; significantly different, but not hugely different. And I seriously doubt that the KHL could be comparable. So ultimately, if hockey players want to earn an excellent salary, the NHL would still be the best bet. And if a few of them would prefer to play elsewhere, due to stubborn resolve, or simply prefer not to play if they can't earn exactly what they did in the previous incarnation of the NHL,... well I'm sure such players shouldn't be missed.

The problem for the League might be re-establishing those elements in the last section of your questions. Though I think corporate sponsorship would return without too much delay; trying to re-establish US TV deals might take a bit longer.

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12-11-2012, 10:20 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
There's no reason why players salaries should be hugely different than they are now; significantly different, but not hugely different. And I seriously doubt that the KHL could be comparable. So ultimately, if hockey players want to earn an excellent salary, the NHL would still be the best bet. And if a few of them would prefer to play elsewhere, due to stubborn resolve, or simply prefer not to play if they can't earn exactly what they did in the previous incarnation of the NHL,... well I'm sure such players shouldn't be missed.
So perhaps an average salary of say, $2 million or so, should be fine?

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12-11-2012, 10:50 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post
How much do you think players would ask to be paid in this theoretical new league, and what caliber of players would they be?

Who would the owners of these teams be?

What sort of television deals could we get? Corporate sponsorship?

What kind of CBA would be negotiated?

The NHLPA and NHL haven't been able to negotiate an equitable CBA for 3 months now. That seems like a long time. But creating a new league, getting all the infrastructure in place, (which includes a new CBA) would take a couple of years minimum. To get it to the level of the NHL? A hundred.
Which is why if this happens nothing would replace it.

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12-11-2012, 10:53 AM
  #282
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The infrastructure that the NHL has couldn't be rebuilt overnight.

New ownership would have to be found. Good luck finding the billionaires to finance this start-up. You probably have to start with 15 or so, tops, because the fence-sitters or the folks who aren't in guaranteed money markets aren't going to want in. Imagine trying to start a hockey league in a moderate hockey city without the NHL brand backing you up. You might as well start an ECHL team.

New arenas might have to be found or negotiated for. Depending on who you could rope into being an owner, you would have tons of trouble getting financing to negotiate new leases for the arenas that are there now. You might end up with a ton of teams downgrading their arena sizes, or moving to smaller (read: cheaper) markets. Which, of course, affects the bottom line.

New sponsors would have to be found, but you probably couldn't get any in year 1. If everything goes off without a hitch, maybe you get some good ones for year 2, but it's a huge if.

You'll have lost all of your branding. People are fans of their teams. If you disband the league and reshuffle all the teams, there's no guarantee half the fan base even registers that the new team is a comparable product. People love the Buffalo Sabres. Now they're the Buffalo Bazookas and they compete for the Dickinabox Cup, but don't worry, hockey is hockey! Are folks going to show up? My guess is not for a good while. And when they come back, they're not going to come back at $90/ticket. Not to see a replacement league.

If the NHL folds, that's it for major pro hockey in North America for at least 10 years. Maybe they could claw their way back after about a decade, but this generation of players would be gone, wasted.

That said, I still want the NHL to fold because the players disgust me at this point.

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12-11-2012, 11:10 AM
  #283
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The NHL. is in a state of denial saying that they have the greatest fans in the world & will come back in droves even if they lose another season do to another lockout & That may be true in Canada but in the USA. where there is so much more competion with the NBA. , NFL. , MLB. , NCCA. & Nascar ect. . The NHL. will have hard time recovering from this lockout & some tough but needed decisions will have to be made for the leagues future survival & if that means relocation of some of the weaker teams so be it .

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12-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
The infrastructure that the NHL has couldn't be rebuilt overnight.

New ownership would have to be found. Good luck finding the billionaires to finance this start-up. You probably have to start with 15 or so, tops, because the fence-sitters or the folks who aren't in guaranteed money markets aren't going to want in. Imagine trying to start a hockey league in a moderate hockey city without the NHL brand backing you up. You might as well start an ECHL team.

New arenas might have to be found or negotiated for. Depending on who you could rope into being an owner, you would have tons of trouble getting financing to negotiate new leases for the arenas that are there now. You might end up with a ton of teams downgrading their arena sizes, or moving to smaller (read: cheaper) markets. Which, of course, affects the bottom line.

New sponsors would have to be found, but you probably couldn't get any in year 1. If everything goes off without a hitch, maybe you get some good ones for year 2, but it's a huge if.

You'll have lost all of your branding. People are fans of their teams. If you disband the league and reshuffle all the teams, there's no guarantee half the fan base even registers that the new team is a comparable product. People love the Buffalo Sabres. Now they're the Buffalo Bazookas and they compete for the Dickinabox Cup, but don't worry, hockey is hockey! Are folks going to show up? My guess is not for a good while. And when they come back, they're not going to come back at $90/ticket. Not to see a replacement league.

If the NHL folds, that's it for major pro hockey in North America for at least 10 years. Maybe they could claw their way back after about a decade, but this generation of players would be gone, wasted.

That said, I still want the NHL to fold because the players disgust me at this point.
Optimistically, it might bring in Manitoba Moose-AHL numbers. The AHL was 'replacement hockey' for Winnipeggers. Prior to the Jets 2.0 the Moose would average about 8000 per game, with $40 getting you a prime seat. This is in 'hockey starved' Winnipeg.

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12-11-2012, 05:59 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That's like saying that the NFL =/= Football and MLB =/= Baseball. The NHL has to a great degree = Hockey for 95 years.

If the NHL did shut down, briefly, it would be reinstituted as the NHL, with just a glitch in the timeline. There would be no other league. Now hopefully that doesn't need to happen, but if it does then again hopefully the reinstituted NHL will have fixed some of its problems.
I'm not so sure. I think that there are keystone teams that dont need the NHL ( and its not just the original six) and alternatively there are clearly teams that absolutely NEED the NHL.

Teams have moved conferences in the past and relocated, that did not seem to affect the fans. I'm a habs fan, if the NHL went poof the habs would still be playing eventually. As long as the keystone teams stay together ( and not try to set up rival replacement leagues in order to try to increase their proportional influence) then this league defacto becomes all that the NHL was. teams may come and go, but the league that ends up with the O6 and the traditional markets becomes the new NHL in everything but its name.

As much as fans of the non traditional markets might not like it, there are clearly differences between the teams. An NHL without the thrashers is not great but doable. An nhl without the habs or the leafs is unthinkable.

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12-11-2012, 06:38 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I'm not so sure. I think that there are keystone teams that dont need the NHL ( and its not just the original six) and alternatively there are clearly teams that absolutely NEED the NHL.

Teams have moved conferences in the past and relocated, that did not seem to affect the fans. I'm a habs fan, if the NHL went poof the habs would still be playing eventually. As long as the keystone teams stay together ( and not try to set up rival replacement leagues in order to try to increase their proportional influence) then this league defacto becomes all that the NHL was. teams may come and go, but the league that ends up with the O6 and the traditional markets becomes the new NHL in everything but its name.

As much as fans of the non traditional markets might not like it, there are clearly differences between the teams. An NHL without the thrashers is not great but doable. An nhl without the habs or the leafs is unthinkable.
Well of course, and it would be those fundamental teams which would reconstitute a revamped NHL.

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12-11-2012, 07:47 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings View Post
Optimistically, it might bring in Manitoba Moose-AHL numbers. The AHL was 'replacement hockey' for Winnipeggers. Prior to the Jets 2.0 the Moose would average about 8000 per game, with $40 getting you a prime seat. This is in 'hockey starved' Winnipeg.
What is the Hamilton Bulldogs attendance average?... How many times have we heard Southern Ontario is underserved and a Hamilton NHL franchise would sell out in minutes?

Oh and last season the Bulldogs had an amazing 14% increase at the gate to reach an average of 4,848 per game after averaging just 4,250 one year earlier.


Last edited by Killion: 12-11-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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12-11-2012, 08:20 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Well of course, and it would be those fundamental teams which would reconstitute a revamped NHL.
but how many "fundamental" teams are there ? And as I mentioned previously, if the nhl dissappeared and the fundamentals quickly reformed a new league, i suspect that the teams not invited to join would sue because in the absence of the nhl the value of the deadwood teams would be essentially zero.

but then again perhaps by dissolving the league they remove liability the way that onlive did and was replaced by onlive offering the same product(s) but freed from their liabilities. if this could be done it would certainly be cheaper than contraction (although ethically questionable).

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12-11-2012, 08:42 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
What is the Hamilton Bulldogs attendance average?... How many times have we heard Southern Ontario is underserved and a Hamilton NHL franchise would sell out in minutes?

Oh and last season the Bulldogs had an amazing 14% increase at the gate to reach an average of 4,848 per game after averaging just 4,250 one year earlier.
Theres' very little appetite for AHL hockey in Southern Ontario. Go Big or Go Away. Attendance figures irrelevant as a result. They'll get & did get increases during the playoffs, last seasons AHL outdoor game at Ivor Wynne Stadium, but thats about it Im afraid. They want steak.

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12-11-2012, 08:43 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
No thanks.

No need to dissolve or decertify, just wait it out and eventually the players will sign.
Might take this year, or next, or the one after but it will happen.
Who could possibly feel sympathy for the poor owners. What other business could shutdown for three years with a meh, wait it out attitude.

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12-11-2012, 08:44 PM
  #291
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Theres' very little appetite for AHL hockey in Southern Ontario. Go Big or Go Away. Attendance figures irrelevant as a result. They'll get & did get increases during the playoffs, last seasons AHL outdoor game at Ivor Wynne Stadium, but thats about it Im afraid. They want steak.
Champagne tastes where the only game in down is serving skunky beer

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12-11-2012, 09:34 PM
  #292
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Who could possibly feel sympathy for the poor owners. What other business could shutdown for three years with a meh, wait it out attitude.
A business where half of the owners can't even generate a profit? If this was a normal everyday business (no revenue sharing, etc), half of the teams would have declared bankruptcy by now.

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12-12-2012, 06:40 AM
  #293
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but how many "fundamental" teams are there ? And as I mentioned previously, if the nhl dissappeared and the fundamentals quickly reformed a new league, i suspect that the teams not invited to join would sue because in the absence of the nhl the value of the deadwood teams would be essentially zero.

but then again perhaps by dissolving the league they remove liability the way that onlive did and was replaced by onlive offering the same product(s) but freed from their liabilities. if this could be done it would certainly be cheaper than contraction (although ethically questionable).
Teams 'not invited' might sue? Shortest. Lawsuit. Ever...

They only exist due to the incompetence of bettman et al. They are welcome to stay in the nhl that created them. I have zero sympathy for those scrubs - who are the primary reason why we have no top level hockey in North America. **** them with a 10' pole! lol

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12-12-2012, 07:42 AM
  #294
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Is it just me or do a lot of these comments seem to sound like "If there were only 8 teams in the league then mine would finally make the playoffs"?

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They are welcome to stay in the nhl that created them. I have zero sympathy for those scrubs - who are the primary reason why we have no top level hockey in North America. ****
You'd have to define top notch hockey, because I was under the impression that the NHL was top notch hockey. Explain how getting rid of Preds, Yotes, or Panthers or something make it more top notch? Would having much fewer teams make hockey more popular in North America or less? Would watching your team play the same 5 other teams every week be more fun or less fun? Would a 6 team league be one that more people would care about or fewer people would care about? Would it even help grow the game in the remaining markets or would more people in those markets lose interest in following a nationally irrelevant league? (Did you know Philadelphia has a Rugby team that plays in the USA Rugby League....neither does anyone in Philadelphia because none of them are aware there is a USA Rugby League).

Hockey fans are strange animals, nowhere else do you meet sports fans who want their game to shrink in the long term as much as possible.

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12-12-2012, 07:54 AM
  #295
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I've thought of this as well, but the difficulty is the wide divergence of franchise values. Would the owners of the Leafs and Rangers etc just take a larger equity share of the new single-entity league? How much larger and what would cause them to want to do this? Very problematic.

I'm sure pro-management posters will come up with a hundred suggestions all designed to accomplish this and screw the players, but none of which would be remotely workable in real life.

The only facts we're left with is that the NHL is not actually playing, and the league says they're a long way from a new CBA. What happens next is uncertain at least.
I've mentioned this before but a new Corporation could step in and buy mostly all the teams, except the big 7 from the big markets (Leafs/Habs/Ran/Hawks/Wings/Bruins/Flyers). And the new entity would essentialy be the league and the 7 teams would be more independant but the league would have to negotiate with them on some issues. The "Big 7" would have more power and they would keep all the money they are making. In the meantime, the corporation/new league would get to contract clubs, get rid of clubs in shaky markets, and the revenues from the markets they own would go to one big entity that can do anything they want with it.

I know it's almost science-fiction but I would like to see it.

But really I think the whole thing will be resolved soon because all these guys want to keep the same structure together. Even if they could be making a lot more.

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12-12-2012, 07:54 AM
  #296
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Theres' very little appetite for AHL hockey in Southern Ontario. Go Big or Go Away. Attendance figures irrelevant as a result. They'll get & did get increases during the playoffs, last seasons AHL outdoor game at Ivor Wynne Stadium, but thats about it Im afraid. They want steak.
I think you got my point. A 2nd tier startup league is facing an uphill battle.
No matter the fan's position in the lockout, fans cheer for their Leafs, Habs, Canucks, Wings etc.

Have a lot of Habs fans abandoned the Habs and are now Flames fans because of Cammaleri? ex-Flyers fans now Kings fans because of Richards and Carter?

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12-12-2012, 08:01 AM
  #297
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Teams 'not invited' might sue? Shortest. Lawsuit. Ever...

They only exist due to the incompetence of bettman et al. They are welcome to stay in the nhl that created them. I have zero sympathy for those scrubs - who are the primary reason why we have no top level hockey in North America. **** them with a 10' pole! lol
Why would it be short ? The leage can contract teams but if they do arent they obligated to pay the owners ? Can they unilaterllay just kick a team to the curb and not give them a cent ?

Dissolving the league and reforming it with the exclusion of certain teams has the same result. Or are you arguing that the league has thr legal perogative to accept expansion fees and then kick teams out ?
Right now many of the struggling teams valuations are based exclusively on the fact that they are in the nhl and are bringing the worlds best players in to play. If one of the teams had the same infrastructure and commitments but were dropped from nhl talent to ahl talent their investments lose 90% of their value instantly.

But im not a lawyer, if you would explain why the excluded teams would not have cause to sue, I would really appreciate it.

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12-12-2012, 08:01 AM
  #298
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It isn't above being a slave to the masses. The death of the NHL would = the death of hockey in Canada for rhe simple fact most kids dream about playing in the NHL if it died then whats the goal? AHL? how many people do know that dreamed of being in the AHL?
Most kids will want to play for the Leafs and Habs no matter what, even if there's no NHL. Nowadays kids follow all the teams and just want the money and glory and back in the old days kids wanted to play for the Leafs and Habs, not play in the NHL. Maybe it would return to that. I think that would be great to see people identify themselves so strongly with a team like that.

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12-12-2012, 08:11 AM
  #299
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Is it just me or do a lot of these comments seem to sound like "If there were only 8 teams in the league then mine would finally make the playoffs"?



You'd have to define top notch hockey, because I was under the impression that the NHL was top notch hockey. Explain how getting rid of Preds, Yotes, or Panthers or something make it more top notch? Would having much fewer teams make hockey more popular in North America or less? Would watching your team play the same 5 other teams every week be more fun or less fun? Would a 6 team league be one that more people would care about or fewer people would care about? Would it even help grow the game in the remaining markets or would more people in those markets lose interest in following a nationally irrelevant league? (Did you know Philadelphia has a Rugby team that plays in the USA Rugby League....neither does anyone in Philadelphia because none of them are aware there is a USA Rugby League).

Hockey fans are strange animals, nowhere else do you meet sports fans who want their game to shrink in the long term as much as possible.
I think hockey fans are the purest, most hardcore fans, because they want to see hockey being played in places that deserve to be played. Not just "to have a tv contract", not just for the money like the southern expansion was all about. Bruce McNall who was Chief of the NHL Board of Governors at the time, when he hired Bettman, he said this yesterday, the southern expansion was done in the goal to have a big tv contract cause it would not happen with a mainly North East league. Bottom line it wasn't done for the good of the game that's being played. And it sure did not make the hockey better.

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12-12-2012, 08:36 AM
  #300
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because they want to see hockey being played in places that deserve to be played.

Who's "they"? Im a hockey fan, and think the world deserves hockey. I'd like to see it more popular. I want more kids playing peewee hockey. I want the SCF to be a big deal. I dont really want it to be just some parochial interest like curling or ultimate frisbee.
Frankly, All this sounds like a hipster that he doesnt want his favorite local band on the radio because kids in Iowa dont deserve alt rock or something.

Quote:
And it sure did not make the hockey better.
Like I said, explain. You didnt actually address any of the questions. How does a smaller more irrelevant league make hockey better? How would it make it better long term and short term?


Last edited by Jossipov: 12-12-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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