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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Who here would like to see the NHL completely dissolve?

View Poll Results: Would you like to see the NHL crumble and see a new league created?
Yes 210 29.41%
No 504 70.59%
Voters: 714. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-13-2012, 05:45 PM
  #376
sandysan
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Originally Posted by Jossipov View Post
That greatly overestimates how much any of those teams are hurting, and Nashville has done a rather good job and is a growing market now. Ultimately the "haves" need the "have nots" to becomes stronger, that's why the league invested in expansion. Because in the long term a bigger league and larger market is better for everyone, including the "haves". As I said, in a contracting provincial league that is nationally irrelevant the "haves" will not remain "haves" either. If you think that the CAL Rangers would bring in the same revenue as the NHL Rangers, I'd say you are mistaken
we have done this dance before. Nashvilles growth is exagerrated but the fact that it started so low and its going to be constricted in the very near future. There are regional minor hockey associations that have more registered players than the entire state of tennessee. The state of kansas has 4 rinks suitable for hockey. the state of tennesse, which has a NHL team has margianlly more. If kansas got another 50 players, they would likely be the fastest growing state.

So if nashville has been doing such a good job of growing the market, any idea when they might contribute to RS instead ot being on the recieving end ?

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12-13-2012, 05:48 PM
  #377
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no one is forcing people to go to leafs games. The NHL is decidely forcing the leafs to contribute to RS.

and its not stupidity, its a combination of free market economics and markets teeming with passionate fans.

For nashville and phoenix..... one of these things is not like the other.... one of these things just doesnt belong.
So stop going to games and your tickets prices will go down. Your ticket prices only high because people in Toronto are willing to pay it. Your ticket prices are NOT high because tickets are cheaper in Nashville. Your team has been bad for years because people in Toronto are unwilling to hold leafs management accountable by staying away. Harold Ballard came right out and said it years ago: Why spend money on players when the fans are going to show up regardless?

Don't like revenue sharing? Tough! Every healthy North American sports league has greater revenue sharing than the NHL: That's why they're healthy. The fact that the NHL's revenue sharing is laughable is why the NHL is UNhealthy.

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12-13-2012, 05:50 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Want to know which fans deserve hockey, every singly one of them that wants it. Want to know which markets deserve hockey ? The ones that will freaking support it.
And it's hardly that simple.
and its a good thing for soccer fans that MLS didnt have that attitude
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...gue-in-america

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12-13-2012, 05:54 PM
  #379
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So stop going to games and your tickets prices will go down. Your ticket prices only high because people in Toronto are willing to pay it. Your ticket prices are NOT high because tickets are cheaper in Nashville. Your team has been bad for years because people in Toronto are unwilling to hold leafs management accountable by staying away. Harold Ballard came right out and said it years ago: Why spend money on players when the fans are going to show up regardless?

Don't like revenue sharing? Tough! Every healthy North American sports league has greater revenue sharing than the NHL: That's why they're healthy. The fact that the NHL's revenue sharing is laughable is why the NHL is UNhealthy.
I never said it affected ticket prices. i also dont think anyone begrudges the price fans pay in have markets because we understand that based on supply and demand, it is likely that the leafs and the habs could charge more and still fill the house.

I'm all for revenue sharing if the notion is that it is to prop up temporarily unstable teams or to help establish teams in new markets. But the notion that Montreal and Toronto should prop up all of the southern teams in perpetuity ( without ever getting any ROI) is nonsensical. That the answer to untenable markets is to ask good markets to essentially shovel money down a bottomless pit, forever.

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12-13-2012, 05:56 PM
  #380
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And it's hardly that simple.
and its a good thing for soccer fans that MLS didnt have that attitude
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...gue-in-america
guess what, if MLS disappeared tomorrow, I wouldnt say boo. The nhl isnt MLS or the NBA for that matter, stop making this comparison.

I think that the MLS might be the only professional league with worse TV ratings in the southern Us than the NHl.

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12-13-2012, 06:02 PM
  #381
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I never said it affected ticket prices. i also dont think anyone begrudges the price fans pay in have markets because we understand that based on supply and demand, it is likely that the leafs and the habs could charge more and still fill the house.

I'm all for revenue sharing if the notion is that it is to prop up temporarily unstable teams or to help establish teams in new markets. But the notion that Montreal and Toronto should prop up all of the southern teams in perpetuity ( without ever getting any ROI) is nonsensical. That the answer to untenable markets is to ask good markets to essentially shovel money down a bottomless pit, forever.
Yeah? And the New York Giants and Dallas Cowboys are propping up the Green Bay Packers and Jacksonville Jaguars in perpetuity and you don't hear them b1tching about it. Want to know why? Because their return on investment is a healthy league from top to bottom. They figured out a long time ago that far from shoveling money down a bottomless pit they're contributing to a rising tide that lifts all the boats.

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12-13-2012, 06:02 PM
  #382
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To get a platform to get a tv deal. It was a fairly science-fiction by Bettman: put teams in the desert, in the south were there's no hockey tradition "because he needed teams everywhere to get a big tv contract".
If you want a National TV contract, then you have to have a national footprint. You need to have people watching the games not because their favorite team is on, but because hockey is on.

If you have a better way to expand the national footprint of the NHL, I am sure Gary would be delighted to hear it.


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Not only it never worked,

If the goal was to grow the game, than Southern expansion is working.

Here are the percentages of growth in the enrollment of youth hockey between 1990 (pre-expansion) and 2009 (source: http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...s-1990-2009/):

Phoenix: 172%
California: 322%
Colorado: 248%
Florida: 804%
Georgia: 479%
North Carolina: 502%
Ohio: 215%
Texas: 1156%

Compared to teams in traditional markets:

Michigan: 109%
Massachusetts: 67%
Illinois: 155%
Minnesota: 63%




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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
but to do crazy expansion like these and not even thinking about the talent pool and if there would be enough talent to fill those teams was stupid and irresponsible.
With the fall of the Soviet Block and the increased production from Europe in general, there was every indication that there would be enough talent coming in to fill those teams. It's stupid to suggest that this question was both not considered at the time of expansion, and that there was not a very good answer to placate it.

Besides, what proof is there that the talent pool is currently diluted? What proof is there that expansion is the cause?

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12-13-2012, 06:07 PM
  #383
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Yeah? And the New York Giants and Dallas Cowboys are propping up the Green Bay Packers and Jacksonville Jaguars in perpetuity and you don't hear them b1tching about it. Want to know why? Because their return on investment is a healthy league from top to bottom. They figured out a long time ago that far from shoveling money down a bottomless pit they're contributing to a rising tide that lifts all the boats.
this is precisely the type of attitude that is easy to adopt when you know you are playing with other peoples money.

And did you just compare the nashville predators to the green bay packers ? Really ?

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12-13-2012, 06:11 PM
  #384
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this is precisely the type of attitude that is easy to adopt when you know you are playing with other peoples money.

And did you just compare the nashville predators to the green bay packers ? Really ?
You know what would happen if the NFL did away with revenue sharing? The Packers would be moved almost immediately because the market is too small to support an NFL franchise. Green Bay exists in the NFL PRECISELY because of the NFL's revenue sharing. Otherwise it's an anachronism of the 1930s. The NFL brags incessantly how it's business model allows a team like Green Bay to exist.

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12-13-2012, 06:12 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
If you want a National TV contract, then you have to have a national footprint. You need to have people watching the games not because their favorite team is on, but because hockey is on.

If you have a better way to expand the national footprint of the NHL, I am sure Gary would be delighted to hear it.





If the goal was to grow the game, than Southern expansion is working.

Here are the percentages of growth in the enrollment of youth hockey between 1990 (pre-expansion) and 2009 (source: http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...s-1990-2009/):

Phoenix: 172%
California: 322%
Colorado: 248%
Florida: 804%
Georgia: 479%
North Carolina: 502%
Ohio: 215%
Texas: 1156%

Compared to teams in traditional markets:

Michigan: 109%
Massachusetts: 67%
Illinois: 155%
Minnesota: 63%






With the fall of the Soviet Block and the increased production from Europe in general, there was every indication that there would be enough talent coming in to fill those teams. It's stupid to suggest that this question was both not considered at the time of expansion, and that there was not a very good answer to placate it.

Besides, what proof is there that the talent pool is currently diluted? What proof is there that expansion is the cause?

Are you trying to deliberately fool people ? If I started my own hockey league and got my two brothers to join, would you be trumpeting my 200% increase in registrations ?

When you are starting at close to zero, small changes look big proportionally. Even these increases are not sustainable without immense investment in infrastructure ( more rinks) which has not happened.

I grew up in quebec and I bet that taking into all of the hockey associations withing a 45 minute drive of my old house that there would be more registered players than the entire state of Tn

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12-13-2012, 06:13 PM
  #386
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You know what would happen if the NFL did away with revenue sharing? The Packers would be moved almost immediately because the market is too small to support an NFL franchise. Green Bay exists in the NFL PRECISELY because of the NFL's revenue sharing. Otherwise it's an anachronism of the 1930s. The NFL brags incessantly how it's business model allows a team like Green Bay to exist.
the argument that population = market is a false equivalency. one that has caused the NHL much damage.

When nashville fans start bequeathing ST in their wills in nashville, let me know.

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12-13-2012, 06:14 PM
  #387
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this is precisely the type of attitude that is easy to adopt when you know you are playing with other peoples money.

And did you just compare the nashville predators to the green bay packers ? Really ?
Who's doing what with who's money?
Then why doent the Leafs just leave the NHL and go form the Ayn Rand Hockey league.....oh they wouldnt do that because why?
it's the same reason New Jersey (despite contributing more to the federal government than it gets back) "props up" states like Alabama (states that receive federal subsidies) instead of just leaving the unions and starting their own country

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12-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #388
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the argument that population = market is a false equivalency. one that has caused the NHL much damage.

When nashville fans start bequeathing ST in their wills in nashville, let me know.
Market size = TV money. TV money = success in the modern age. When Toronto's ticket prices equal something other than 47 years of pathetic futility let me know.

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12-13-2012, 06:20 PM
  #389
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Who's doing what with who's money?
Then why doent the Leafs just leave the NHL and go form the Ayn Rand Hockey league.....oh they wouldnt do that because why?
were pot committed right now, but at some point if you have dogs you gotta lay them down.

And its probably easier to cut the chaff then get rid of one of the premier teams in the league and its biggest economic engine. I can guaran-damn tee that there will be an nhl without the predators before there is an nhl without the leafs

( not that I want either to occur)

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12-13-2012, 06:23 PM
  #390
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Market size = TV money. TV money = success in the modern age. When Toronto's ticket prices equal something other than 47 years of pathetic futility let me know.
then lets put a team in mexico city ! and how a team does on the ice is very different that how it does in the league. It must kill you to know that as long as the leafs have sucked they are still infinately in far better shape than the southern markets. If your rationalization is that the fans in toronto are too dumb ( in the hockey sense) to stop supporting a bad team and that we could take a lesson or two from some of the southern markets ( who seem to have prefected staying away from games), that's your perogative. I hope it keeps you warm at night.

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12-13-2012, 06:26 PM
  #391
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then lets put a team in mexico city ! and how a team does on the ice is very different that how it does in the league. It must kill you to know that as long as the leafs have sucked they are still infinately in far better shape than the southern markets. If your rationalization is that the fans in toronto are too dumb ( in the hockey sense) to stop supporting a bad team and that we could take a lesson or two from some of the southern markets ( who seem to have prefected staying away from games), that's your perogative. I hope it keeps you warm at night.
Far from killing me, the Leafs perennial futility is a source of endless amusement for me. And having to see Leafs fans in a perpetual state of tantrum just reminds me of how good I really have it

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12-13-2012, 06:30 PM
  #392
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Far from killing me, the Leafs perennial futility is a source of endless amusement for me. And having to see Leafs fans in a perpetual state of tantrum just reminds me of how good I really have it
Im a habs fan, I have no love for the leafs. but they sure as hell know how to build, control and exploit a hockey market.

If nashvilles off ice accumen matched their on-ice performace I would be far more optimistic than I am.

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12-13-2012, 06:30 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Are you trying to deliberately fool people ? If I started my own hockey league and got my two brothers to join, would you be trumpeting my 200% increase in registrations ?

When you are starting at close to zero, small changes look big proportionally. Even these increases are not sustainable without immense investment in infrastructure ( more rinks) which has not happened.

I grew up in quebec and I bet that taking into all of the hockey associations withing a 45 minute drive of my old house that there would be more registered players than the entire state of Tn
Good point.

But at the same time, looking at the numbers, you can only conclude that expanding teams into the south has caused a growth in youth hockey.

If there is an increased demand for ice rinks, then more will be built.

But this is neither here nor there, as I only posted the numbers to prove that "southern expansion has not worked in terms of "growing the game" wrong".

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12-13-2012, 06:34 PM
  #394
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then lets put a team in mexico city !
Let's do it!
http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/n...ash=6e70295b25

seriously though, expansion is unlikely, expansion to Mexico isnt even likely for the MLB or NBA....because its Mexico

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12-13-2012, 06:37 PM
  #395
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Good point.

But at the same time, looking at the numbers, you can only conclude that expanding teams into the south has caused a growth in youth hockey.

If there is an increased demand for ice rinks, then more will be built.

But this is neither here nor there, as I only posted the numbers to prove that "southern expansion has not worked in terms of "growing the game" wrong".
its been 14 years and the demand isnt there, and going from 860 to 920 registered hockey players is nothing to crow about.

Nashville apparently had plans to build one or two more rinks but the plans got submarined by the economy. and no one is complaining about it or stepping in to pick up the slack. without kids playing the game you are kneecapping your next generation of fans.

Aside from nascar I cant think of any other spectator sport that can sustain itself when less than 1% of the fans have ever competed in that sport at any level. It relegates hockey to the abstract.

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12-13-2012, 06:48 PM
  #396
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Im a habs fan, I have no love for the leafs. but they sure as hell know how to build, control and exploit a hockey market.

If nashvilles off ice accumen matched their on-ice performace I would be far more optimistic than I am.
As someone who cares more about the sport of hockey than he cares about any particular team I find nothing admirable about what the Maple Leafs do: It's an affront to the spirit and integrity of the game. At the same time, I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for fans who KNOW they're being played for fools by the Leafs yet they keep feeding the beast and venting their frustrations out on the fans of other teams.

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12-13-2012, 06:48 PM
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its been 14 years and the demand isnt there, and going from 860 to 920 registered hockey players is nothing to crow about.
That's an increase of 7%, slightly below any of the increases presented in the article.

But feel free to continue to see only what you want to see.

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Nashville apparently had plans to build one or two more rinks but the plans got submarined by the economy. and no one is complaining about it or stepping in to pick up the slack. without kids playing the game you are kneecapping your next generation of fans.
How does a short term stall in growth prove that the entire "next generation of fans" are kneecapped?

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Aside from nascar I cant think of any other spectator sport that can sustain itself when less than 1% of the fans have ever competed in that sport at any level. It relegates hockey to the abstract.
Hence the point of expansion: to grow the number of fans by introducing hockey into markets that don't have a history of the sport.

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12-13-2012, 06:50 PM
  #398
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its been 14 years and the demand isnt there, and going from 860 to 920 registered hockey players is nothing to crow about.

Nashville apparently had plans to build one or two more rinks but the plans got submarined by the economy. and no one is complaining about it or stepping in to pick up the slack. without kids playing the game you are kneecapping your next generation of fans.

Aside from nascar I cant think of any other spectator sport that can sustain itself when less than 1% of the fans have ever competed in that sport at any level. It relegates hockey to the abstract.
Who says you have to have played in order to be a fan of a sport? The closest thing that the vast majority of NFL have had to playing football is tossing the ball around in their backyards. The vast majority of MLB fans didn't even play little league.

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12-13-2012, 06:52 PM
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As someone who cares more about the sport of hockey than he cares about any particular team I find nothing admirable about what the Maple Leafs do: It's an affront to the spirit and integrity of the game. At the same time, I have a hard time feeling much sympathy for fans who KNOW they're being played for fools by the Leafs yet they keep feeding the beast and venting their frustrations out on the fans of other teams.
I think its admirable that Toronto fans pay good money to see hockey even if they suck and are managed by a bunch of morons.

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12-13-2012, 06:56 PM
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I think its admirable that Toronto fans pay good money to see hockey even if they suck and are managed by a bunch of morons.
I don't. They need to hold the crooks that run the Leafs accountable for their mismanagement. Fans DO have the ultimate power and should, as good fans, use it to as a check against bad management. They HAVE to give people at the top an incentive to put a good product on the ice, otherwise they're just going to get screwed over and over again.

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