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Why so much hatred and criticism towards the players?

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:49 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
I also think its bang on to say there is a trust issue that the owners have caused, have unnecesarily exacerbated when they had a reasonable partner to work with, and that they are going to have to work to fix.

But i dont think its completely accurate to portray players as the product. The NHL game, league, and experience is the product. The players are the talent.

Its interesting that another group that is considered the talent are CEO's. There has been much nashing of teeth recently about why are CEO's worth so much in this time of income disparity. Is it because boards just dont know how to say no and they need to be protected from themselves? And there have been calls from union types for owners and boards to claw back some of the salaries that the talent are negotating.

It feels kind of weird to think of CEO's and NHL players in the same societal pot of the 'talent'.

--
I think if people are going to come to a business of hockey board and make the rather dullard point that revenues are not equal to profits, as if this is some great pearl of enlightenment worthy of sharing here, it is then incumbent on you to actually make a case rather than just hoping that everyone will fill in the facts you are apparently unable to successfully argue and thus are hoping that just repeating this simpleton but irelevant line saves you from. It doesnt.
Well said and I agree with much of what you say, but if we are not sure of what players really are then lets forget about that and compare them to other comparable professionals. Such as lets say actors, musicians, and other premier entertainers.

As for CEO's I dont want to pick a side but I do want to add one other reason to throw money at them. They are in a important positions with little oversight, you want to eliminate motivation for corruption, obviously we all know how much corruption there is regardless, but to play the devils advocate I think we would see even more. Keep in mind that corruption is expensive, it can be that for every $1 stolen $100 are wasted. In these cases the costs and losses add up really quickly and throwing piles of money at the guy at the top becomes actually a good investment assuming it reduces these risks, and the benefits then filter down to the rest of the organization as the CEO is the tip of the pyramid.

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10-29-2012, 01:08 AM
  #77
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I wonder what percentage of revenues the cast of cirque de soleil get. I sincerely dont know. I wonder what percentage of revenues that Bettman and the lawyers at Proskauer Rose get. I guess it depends whether they are partners. If i wanted to start a new tv show about the worlds best chefs and have them actually working at a real restaurant, could i hire them without guaranteed contracts? What percentage of revenues would the chef talent get?

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10-29-2012, 01:18 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
I wonder what percentage of revenues the cast of cirque de soleil get. I sincerely dont know. I wonder what percentage of revenues that Bettman and the lawyers at Proskauer Rose get. I guess it depends whether they are partners. If i wanted to start a new tv show about the worlds best chefs and have them actually working at a real restaurant, could i hire them without guaranteed contracts? What percentage of revenues would the chef talent get?
I can't speak for the chefs but the NFL doesn't have a problem getting there empoyees to work without a gauranteed contract .

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10-29-2012, 01:27 AM
  #79
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Well i dont beleive that is true. The best players have guaranteed contracts in the nfl. They get it as a signing bonus. And it is about the same amount that NHL players get when being bought out. It is like a prepaid buy out in the NFL. But the conventional wisdom totally misses that it seems

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10-29-2012, 01:57 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Well i dont beleive that is true. The best players have guaranteed contracts in the nfl. They get it as a signing bonus. And it is about the same amount that NHL players get when being bought out. It is like a prepaid buy out in the NFL. But the conventional wisdom totally misses that it seems
You can believe want you want but the facts are the majority of a NFL players contract isn't gauranteed and that's the main point .

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10-29-2012, 02:23 AM
  #81
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I don't hate the players, but I'm frustrated with them not accepting a 50/50 split and losing a small chunk of money, and instead possibly missing an entire season to lose more money.

That, and the owners are in the stronger position. I don't expect them to cave in every way, but this seems to be a hardline stance for the principle that's hurting them more.

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10-29-2012, 02:30 AM
  #82
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Its still jealousy from most people

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10-29-2012, 02:31 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
You sure know allot about negotiations. Please tell me how exactly can two sides negotiate when one calls a bluff on the other
By continuing to call each other's bluffs until all the cards are on the table.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
...which happens often in negotiations where there is a culture of mistrust between the two sides. DO YOU KNOW WHY there is a culture of mistrust???
Because human beings naturally mistrust each other.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
Because the owners in the past have never negotiated in good faith. That is why the players are calling a bluff, that is why there is a communication break down and so little trust and cooperation between the two sides. This is what drags the league down, it cant move forward if the two sides cant trust each other
We don't need trust, we need progress.

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...and work with each other, and its the owners who need to fix this as they are the culprits. They need to be completely honest, open and fair with the players, they need to right the wrongs to create a culture of trust between the two sides.
In a culture of trust, we don't single people out as the 'culprits'. Both sides are mutually responsible in a negotiation. You put your differences aside and negotiate continuously until you are done. Neither side has done that - they are both slacking.

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This is not cheap, its easy to break trust, and in their case they profited from that for decades. Its much more expensive to rebuild it, they should have known this back in the earlier days of the league but they were too greedy and were looking only at the money they were making and not the future consequences.
Profiting is what you're supposed to do as an owner. It's not wrong.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
Now its time for them to pay up for their past mistakes, and if they can be genuine about rebuilding trust then maybe the next CBA negotiations will go smoother.
You talk about fairness, and then you imply the NHLPA has a grudge? Who's really negotiating in bad faith?

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Maybe one day both sides will be able to negotiate in good faith, trust each other and come to agreements that offer the greatest benefit to everyone involved without having to wage war.
A negotiation is a diplomatic version of war. All is fair in love and war, and CBA talks are a war. Don't be fooled.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
I have sat on contract negotiations on both sides in the past, I know whats going on and I know exactly how important trust is between both sides. I know how easy it is to lose and how hard it is to re establish.
Means nothing. You can't trust anybody in this world or the next.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
I know how tempting it is for owners to break that trust for a few extra bucks with out thinking about the long term consequences of having that broken trust and how it ends up eating away at their business, how it kills the chance of smooth negotiations, how hard it is to re establish. Its also always the owners, they are the ones with all the numbers, they are the ones who can manipulate them and be dcietful and dishonest, the players/employees simply have to chose to believe the owners are telling the truth or not.
Nobody manipulates anybody. They choose to accept the terms. There's always an alternative. Have some personal accountability.

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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
If they believe its the truth negotiations are easy as both sides work out a deal that works best for everyone, when they dont believe its thr truth then that when negotiations break down and you get in to a lock out or strike...you cant negotiate a deal without havign numbers that the player/employee side can trust.
Men lie, women lie, numbers don't. Put everything in writing. Have both sides exchange proposals until it's done. Otherwise, no more talk about 'trust' and 'culprits'.

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10-29-2012, 02:32 AM
  #84
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Fans see the players minimum wage salary at half a million dollars.
They see the rich players making $10 million a year.
Those numbers alone don't make many fans angry...

But then they see things like Forbes rankings that suggest more than half of the owners are losing money. The players won't accept a new cba created by the owners, and won't make their own respectable offer to help fix these obvious problems.

Then it becomes pretty clear who is right and who is wrong.

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10-29-2012, 02:40 AM
  #85
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Its still jealousy from most people
If that were the case, people would hate the owners more.

So obviously jealousy isn't the issue here.

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10-29-2012, 02:55 AM
  #86
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I'm clearly on NHLPA's side. Players accepted NHL's proposal in 2004. There is no reason why they should be the side that loses something again just 8 years later. But they seem to be generous and even willing to go down from 57/43 split. Really no reason why I wouldn't be on their side.

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10-29-2012, 03:05 AM
  #87
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I'm fine with the players getting paid a lot of money. They're going to make a lot even with the new CBA proposed by the NHL.

I'm not fine with them flushing an entire season down the toilet because they can't accept a 50-50 revenue split which is either the same or slightly better than what NFL, NBA, and MLB players get from their leagues.

I also don't like seeing these players from 60% of the teams thinking they're big time and they're the show. Unless you're playing for Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, New York, Philly, Pitts, or Boston ... odds are you need to sit the **** down and check your ego.

Unlike the average NBA/NFL/MLB player no one gives two craps about you if you're not playing in the above markets, odds are you can't even out draw the Ice Capades even a $15 tickets + free hot dog in a lot of markets. These guys know damn well the sport isn't in the greatest shape when half of them are playing in front of half empty arenas every second night. "Growing the sport" my butt, most NHL players have the personality of a cardboard box and a face only a mother could love, they have virtually no marketing appeal south of Niagara Falls (unlike NBA/NFL/MLB players).

Players are cashing in on a very small number of NHL friendly markets driving revenues and a high Canadian dollar.

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10-29-2012, 04:05 AM
  #88
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Fans are angry and channelling people's anger to a target is what is happening.

I think the focus group run by Frank Luntz identified there was anger.

The power of money is who holds the cards.

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10-29-2012, 04:22 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I'm clearly on NHLPA's side. Players accepted NHL's proposal in 2004. There is no reason why they should be the side that loses something again just 8 years later. But they seem to be generous and even willing to go down from 57/43 split. Really no reason why I wouldn't be on their side.
Regardless of what everyone thought at the time in 2004, the players ended up having a pretty sweet deal with that cba. All while half of the owners are still losing money.

Clearly the leagues problems weren't fixed in the last cba.
The players saying "You tried to fix it last time and it didn't work. Ha ha, too bad" approach seems pretty juvenile.

For one group, the least a person can get paid is half a million dollars.
The other group has more than half of it's members losing money.

It's easy to see which group most fans would get angry at when it comes to a lockout over a new cba...


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10-29-2012, 04:45 AM
  #90
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Because they deserve it!

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10-29-2012, 05:12 AM
  #91
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[QUOTE=thinkwild;55362381]
And here in the present he is offering exactly what the majority of fans thought was a fair offer.



Wanna recheck your information.If the majority of fans thought was a fair offer they would be backing the NHLPA.Now please explain to us why the majority of fans are not.
Sounding more like the PA everyday.Making up stuff thasts not even true.

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10-29-2012, 05:26 AM
  #92
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[QUOTE=topdog;55367203]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
And here in the present he is offering exactly what the majority of fans thought was a fair offer.



Wanna recheck your information.If the majority of fans thought was a fair offer they would be backing the NHLPA.Now please explain to us why the majority of fans are not.
Sounding more like the PA everyday.Making up stuff thasts not even true.
Because the majority of the fans are not college graduates?

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10-29-2012, 06:04 AM
  #93
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Because so much of what the PA,agents or players say is propoganda,lies and deception and they think the fans will believe whatever they sprew out. It's insulting to think we are that stupid.

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10-29-2012, 07:48 AM
  #94
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I just don't understand their position or end game because they won't tell us their position. Then some open their mouths and speak about things that are not even in the current proposals, like salary roll backs. It just confuses the masses and sounds like spin to get the PR on their side.... It's misleading to the public and is pure PR/propaganda.
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
I dislike them because they treat the fans like we're idiots.
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Also, some of the players are vocal and stupid. That annoys fans.
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Ya Matt Cullen's comments about 50/50 were very telling...
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post


Things like that don't help.
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Don't hate them at all. I just call ******** when I see it. ... I don't appreciate several of them endorsing half truths in order to make their cause seem more worthwhile. They're hockey players and unless they can speak intelligently (and I've learned many of them can't), it's best for them to keep their mouth shut and let the guy they hired do the talking for them. I expect Bettman and Fehr to tell half truths and spin tall tales, but it's disappointing and disconcerting to see these players take advantage of their connection with fans in order to spread their propaganda so they don't look like the bad guys. Worry about getting a deal signed instead of publicly vilifying the guys who sign your pay cheques.
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
2) They keep opening their mouths and looking like fools.
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Well Said. The more the players talk the worse they look. How many players are going to sacrifice their careers drinking Fehr's kool-aid?
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Which, along with all the other retarded things that the players and NHLPA have done throughout this process (refusing to negotiate last year, twitter comments, proposing things that were already rejected, don't make sense or without doing the math, general stupid comments, etc.), makes fans extremely frustrated with the players.
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Because so much of what the PA,agents or players say is propoganda,lies and deception and they think the fans will believe whatever they sprew out. It's insulting to think we are that stupid.

Gee, do we see a pattern developing here?

The players would be doing much better in the PR war if they weren't treating their customers like a bunch of morons who don't know the difference between a strike and a lockout. All you have to do is ask why people are frustrated with the NHLPA, and people will tell you that this is the reason. It's not that difficult to understand.

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10-29-2012, 08:13 AM
  #95
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Don't hate them, and I understand and even (somewhat) agree with their position, however I find it hard to sympathize when so many teams are losing money.

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10-29-2012, 08:17 AM
  #96
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Why do people think they deserve more than 50 percent of their firm's revenues? Half of the owners operated at a loss.
Why did the "firm" give them more than 50% the last time, forged contracts based on that, and now want to renege on those contracts?

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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
They "deserve" whatever they can negotiate for themselves.
Basic simple truth!

Though most will say that in the end the owners Will have the final say. Just as they did the last time when thy gave the players 57%.

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10-29-2012, 08:19 AM
  #97
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Everyone I hear, all they say is negative thoughts and opinions towards the players. "theyre already making so much money, ill put my money and time towards minor or other leagues who care more about the sport. "All they care about is the money, which they already have enough of" Everyone assumes its just the players wanting more money.
Because the level of player salaries is damaging the league. Nobody has a problem with players getting paid their fair share but, when the league is better off financially by shutting down, we have serious problems. The players talk about wanting what is fair, does that reall mean driving 18 teams out of business?

If they really wanted only what is fair and they really cared about the fans, we would be playing hockey right now.

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10-29-2012, 08:25 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
If that were the case, people would hate the owners more.

So obviously jealousy isn't the issue here.
Through years of capitalist endoctrination, most of us have become accustomed to being the peons and the owner is 'the man'. The jealousy really is directed towards other employees who earn as if they aren't peons like the rest of us.

Hey, I'm just expanding. Not that I believe any of this jealousy BS, but hey again, I'm not the jealous one so perhaps I'm just not comprehending that mentality.

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10-29-2012, 08:53 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
If that were the case, people would hate the owners more.

So obviously jealousy isn't the issue here.

Most hockey fans can't name more than a handful of owners. Can't envy someone you've never even heard of.

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10-29-2012, 09:03 AM
  #100
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Most hockey fans can't name more than a handful of owners. Can't envy someone you've never even heard of.
This would not explain the jealousy of Barch and Darche

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