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Why so much hatred and criticism towards the players?

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Old
10-29-2012, 09:08 AM
  #101
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For me personally:

They are acting like victims and trying to get sympathy from the fans who pay their salaries. They are trying to act like they are getting a raw deal. That does not sit well with me. I recently took a pay cut at work, oh well you move on. It would be a lot worse if my company folded and I was out of a job.

The players, those who are speaking out, are making it hard to "root" for them when the NHL does come back.

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10-29-2012, 09:18 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
For me personally:

They are acting like victims and trying to get sympathy from the fans who pay their salaries. They are trying to act like they are getting a raw deal. That does not sit well with me. I recently took a pay cut at work, oh well you move on. It would be a lot worse if my company folded and I was out of a job.
You see, I don't get that At All. You think I have a lot of sympathy for sports people who make the kind of money some of them do? Not at all. However, the complaints, as I'm hearing them, coming from the players, is that the owners and Bettman haven't been negotiating in good faith or really aren't negotiating at all. Bettman is making demands, and if the PA doesn't come right out and essentially agree then Bettman walks away.

One think I dislike more than excessive salaries of many athletes is someone not honoring contracts, even if it may have been stipulated that contracts could be subject to change with a new CBA. Unless there is some honor in 'the contract' then it's not a contract at all; it's just a useless piece of paper.

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10-29-2012, 09:23 AM
  #103
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I think the PA presenting the same proposal each and every time minus the one they "didn't run the numbers on" pisses me off more. That and their constant complaining on twitter and trying to get sympathy from fans (which seems to be backfiring on them - they're just as much to blame for this mess). What's worse is their comments makes me wonder just how informed they are on this whole process because they're flat out wrong in many cases.

It's pretty much clear what the NHL wants. The PA comes in with some silly "alternative vision" of how Don Fehr thinks the NHL should be run, because apparently he's an expert.

I still think Fehr wants a rematch from the last lockout, since his buddy Goodenow got fired over it.

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10-29-2012, 09:24 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
They "deserve" whatever they can negotiate for themselves.
...and if the NHLPA continues on its current path that will likely happen.

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10-29-2012, 09:24 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You see, I don't get that At All. You think I have a lot of sympathy for sports people who make the kind of money some of them do? Not at all. However, the complaints, as I'm hearing them, coming from the players, is that the owners and Bettman haven't been negotiating in good faith or really aren't negotiating at all. Bettman is making demands, and if the PA doesn't come right out and essentially agree then Bettman walks away.

One think I dislike more than excessive salaries of many athletes is someone not honoring contracts, even if it may have been stipulated that contracts could be subject to change with a new CBA. Unless there is some honor in 'the contract' then it's not a contract at all; it's just a useless piece of paper.
I say victims because of their pathetic public outcries. They are trying to get act like they are getting held hostage and banned from the game they love. That is not the case.

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10-29-2012, 09:34 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
For me personally:

They are acting like victims and trying to get sympathy from the fans who pay their salaries. They are trying to act like they are getting a raw deal. That does not sit well with me. I recently took a pay cut at work, oh well you move on. It would be a lot worse if my company folded and I was out of a job.

The players, those who are speaking out, are making it hard to "root" for them when the NHL does come back.
But why do you care? Why do you care what a hockey player says about the CBA, or the color of his shoes, or Middle East policy? They're hockey players, they play hockey. We don't (or shouldn't) expect them to be rocket scientists or great moral or spiritual leaders. They're just people, like us, but generally less educated.

Up to a certain point, I don't care about the attitude, beliefs, or off-ice actions of the Capitals. Why should I? I just want them to win on the ice. If they start ****** and murdering, OK, I'll judge them, but who am I to judge them for asking for a raise, or in this case, to not have their contracts reduced? Who are you to do so?

HFers seem to have collectively turned on the players because they feel disappointed by their heroes. Well, grow the **** up, HF. Hockey players are not heroes, they're just people who are good at entertaining us by chasing a puck around a sheet of ice. That's all they are.

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10-29-2012, 09:35 AM
  #107
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Most hockey fans can't name more than a handful of owners. Can't envy someone you've never even heard of.
For one thing, most hockey fans have never heard of the majority of hockey players.

Also, "can't envy someone you've never heard of" is just not true. How many billionaires can you name off the top of your head? There are only 1200 of them, shouldn't be too hard to name at least 30, right?


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Through years of capitalist endoctrination, most of us have become accustomed to being the peons and the owner is 'the man'. The jealousy really is directed towards other employees who earn as if they aren't peons like the rest of us.

Hey, I'm just expanding. Not that I believe any of this jealousy BS, but hey again, I'm not the jealous one so perhaps I'm just not comprehending that mentality.
That's closer to reality, but I don't think it's "jealousy" at certain employees making big paydays, so much as "anger" at them for pretending that they don't care about money while transparently complaining about a paycut at a time that a huge number of schmoes are either taking paycuts or losing their jobs altogether. It's like hearing someone talk down to the wait staff at a restaurant -- you don't have to be jealous of that guy's wealth to think he's a total knob.


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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You see, I don't get that At All. You think I have a lot of sympathy for sports people who make the kind of money some of them do? Not at all. However, the complaints, as I'm hearing them, coming from the players, is that the owners and Bettman haven't been negotiating in good faith or really aren't negotiating at all. Bettman is making demands, and if the PA doesn't come right out and essentially agree then Bettman walks away.
If they were actually complaining about that sort of hard detail, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. Occasionally someone like Ryan Miller will make an intelligent public statement that gets due credit for being on-point. The "victim" card comes into play when you have David Krejci (annual salary: $5.25 million) saying he's being treated like an animal.

The owners have had one, maybe two off-the-cuff remarks that made their way into the media and caused a stink. Beyond that they have had the good sense to shut the **** up and let the professionals handle the PR campaign. The players could take notes from that approach, as soon as they're done irrationally ripping on the owners for hiring PR consultants.

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10-29-2012, 09:35 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
I say victims because of their pathetic public outcries. They are trying to get act like they are getting held hostage and banned from the game they love. That is not the case.
No, they're not held hostage. They only need to agree to the owners's or Bettman's demands and then they can get back to playing and earning money and we can get back to watching. Perhaps therein is why so many aren't having sympathy with the players, because even with the owners proposed, demanded, salary reductions, they will still be earning more than the great majority of us earn.

However, if the players want their contracts honored, and want to negotiate with the owners with that objective in mind. Well then, the owners aren't negotiating and they have locked the players out. So as long as the players stick by their certain minimum of what they want, the owners are more or less banning them from playing in the NHL or even negotiating to that end.

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10-29-2012, 09:35 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
I say victims because of their pathetic public outcries. They are trying to get act like they are getting held hostage and banned from the game they love. That is not the case.
Is it better to ban them from talking (like the NHL has done to the owners) or to let them talk (like the NHLPA is doing) and have them sound like fools?

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10-29-2012, 09:40 AM
  #110
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HFers seem to have collectively turned on the players because they feel disappointed by their heroes. Well, grow the **** up, HF. Hockey players are not heroes, they're just people who are good at entertaining us by chasing a puck around a sheet of ice. That's all they are.
As the consumers, we get to set the terms of engagement.

If we want the players to act like respectable human beings, then that's exactly what they should do. It's no different than our expectations of any other business person, whose public actions most certainly do impact their bottom line. Having a private opinion is one thing -- even though you can still be judged on it -- but expressing that opinion in the media invites a reaction from your consumer base. Don't like it? Then keep your mouth shut and let your union boss do the talking.

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10-29-2012, 09:40 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by steviek3b View Post
Is it better to ban them from talking (like the NHL has done to the owners) or to let them talk (like the NHLPA is doing) and have them sound like fools?
It's nice to expose them for the spoiled morons they are, but I think if this PR ******** wasn't being spewed they would be forced to actually come to an agreement.

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10-29-2012, 09:45 AM
  #112
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Human nature... Because they talk directly or are concerned about money. People tolerate it from owners and agents, not from players.

"The same people who in the old days would have immediately considered their heroes greedy if the news had broken that they had asked poor old Conn Smythe or Jim Norris for a raise - and would have viewed anyone earning a salary three or four times those of the average working stiff's for playing a game as entirely immoral - started to find themselves coming down on the player's (and by extension, his clever agent's) side. Just as long as he himself wasn't out front doing the asking, just as long as he appreciated his lot in life and knew his place, just as long as he remained loyal, diligent, honest worker who cared as much for the home team as those buying the tickets to watch him in action",

Stephen Brunt, Searching for Bobby Orr.
I'm old enough to have seen Orr play with the Generals so I may know a little something about this. The times in which Brunt is talking about were so far removed from todays society it's hard to believe we were ever that naive, but we were. What I'm getting at is the parallel you're inferring to just doesn't hold up considering the difference that 40 years has made

today we see the players warts, public mis-steps and pillory them on the intertainmentnet on a daily basis, so little of what they say should bother anyone, and for the most part it really doesn't. Unless of course it goes against how we see and feel about them.

I think a lot of the criticism directed now at the players is because of the single mindedness of the message they've delivering through the media. The public is more savvy then they themselves or the players might realize. There is no doubt in my mind that the players are reiterating what they're being told by union leadership, playing the "poor poor pitiful me the victim" card.

30 years ago this may have worked, today's internet driven cynicism just doesn't allow that singular expression of their disappointment at the "betrayal" by ownership to be believed on any level.

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10-29-2012, 09:46 AM
  #113
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Is it better to ban them from talking (like the NHL has done to the owners) or to let them talk (like the NHLPA is doing) and have them sound like fools?
If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. Might as well make it a law.

The owners speaking up would accomplish nothing nyway, all the talking should be done during negotiations.

Why do people think letting the owners speak publically would accomplish anything ?

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10-29-2012, 09:47 AM
  #114
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It's nice to expose them for the spoiled morons they are, but I think if this PR ******** wasn't being spewed they would be forced to actually come to an agreement.
Come to agreement? My concept of that is give and take from both sides. As far as I can see here, it's the owners demanding what they want and the players need to agree to it, or else there is No discussion.

I think, or I'm beginning to think that a big problem here is that the leaders on both sides, Bettman and Fehr, have such anamosity, such a dislike going on, that no one wants to sit down and actually negotiate. Those two personalities on both sides are actually hindering negotiation.

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10-29-2012, 09:52 AM
  #115
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Come to agreement? My concept of that is give and take from both sides. As far as I can see here, it's the owners demanding what they want and the players need to agree to it, or else there is No discussion.
Owners want 50/50 and contract limitations.

Players offer a potential 50/50 while taking away linkage and weaking the salary cap, the other option is a 50/50 proposal which isn't really 50/50 and require accounting tricks to make it look like one.

I don't see any give and take from the players either.

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10-29-2012, 09:56 AM
  #116
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But why do you care? Why do you care what a hockey player says about the CBA, or the color of his shoes, or Middle East policy? They're hockey players, they play hockey. We don't (or shouldn't) expect them to be rocket scientists or great moral or spiritual leaders. They're just people, like us, but generally less educated.

Up to a certain point, I don't care about the attitude, beliefs, or off-ice actions of the Capitals. Why should I? I just want them to win on the ice. If they start ****** and murdering, OK, I'll judge them, but who am I to judge them for asking for a raise, or in this case, to not have their contracts reduced? Who are you to do so?

HFers seem to have collectively turned on the players because they feel disappointed by their heroes. Well, grow the **** up, HF. Hockey players are not heroes, they're just people who are good at entertaining us by chasing a puck around a sheet of ice. That's all they are.
Disappointed by my heroes? Ha, hardly. I don't idolize any athlete.

Seems like you just quoted my post to go on your opinion.

I "care," read don't care, what they say or think. But if they want support from being "locked out" they may want to get some facts first or put themselves into the shoes of the fans who pay their salaries.

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10-29-2012, 10:01 AM
  #117
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Come to agreement? My concept of that is give and take from both sides. As far as I can see here, it's the owners demanding what they want and the players need to agree to it, or else there is No discussion.
Well yeah I guess that's a big problem if you can't understand the benefit to both sides in the league's offer.

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10-29-2012, 10:13 AM
  #118
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Is it better to ban them from talking (like the NHL has done to the owners) or to let them talk (like the NHLPA is doing) and have them sound like fools?
... I suppose that depends on your perspective, preconceived notions, which side of the fence you fall on; Players or Owners? Perhaps your a Fence Sitter, taking neither's side, dispassionately & objectively considering both sides positions, critical of each. Id prefer to hear from both sides, no Gag Orders at all. Lets hear what Tennebaum in Toronto, Jacobs out of Boston, Gaglardi in Dallas have to say, with followup questions & no subject out of bounds. Then we/ll see who's "greedy", sounds like a "fool".

If Im "pro player" (which I am), pretty much everything thats come out of hired guns Bettman & Dalys' mouth's has been disingenuous. Carefully chosen words designed to obfuscate & mis-direct, reversing the onus of responsibility for the BOG's failures as businessmen & stewards of the game onto the backs of the players, rolling back grounds gained. The NHL is the author of its own demise, unwilling to look in the mirror and address systemic flaws within its business model.

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10-29-2012, 10:17 AM
  #119
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Disappointed by my heroes? Ha, hardly. I don't idolize any athlete.

Seems like you just quoted my post to go on your opinion.

I "care," read don't care, what they say or think. But if they want support from being "locked out" they may want to get some facts first or put themselves into the shoes of the fans who pay their salaries.
But why? Why is it the players' responsibility to "get some facts first or put themselves into the shoes of the fans who pay their salaries"? Why does it make you and others support the owners when they don't?

This is a business negotiation, nothing more. Nothing the players say has any effect as to what is right because there is no right and wrong in a negotiation like this. The owners don't deserve 50% of HHR, the players don't deserve to be free agents at 27 years old, and there are no morals at play here. The two sides only deserve what they negotiate, nothing more or less.

The players' position at this point is no less valid than the owners'. They might say stupid things on Twitter, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of the negotiations.

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10-29-2012, 10:23 AM
  #120
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Come to agreement? from both sides. As far as I can see here, it's the owners demanding what they want and the players need to agreMy concept of that is give and take e to it, or else there is No discussion.

I think, or I'm beginning to think that a big problem here is that the leaders on both sides, Bettman and Fehr, have such anamosity, such a dislike going on, that no one wants to sit down and actually negotiate. Those two personalities on both sides are actually hindering negotiation.
The players have to realize it's not a concession exchange. It's what the league has to do in order to have a good chance of success for the franchises, not how to line the players pockets in different ways.

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10-29-2012, 10:30 AM
  #121
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That was my point, or at least my speculation. And as I was pointing out from that, it was the owners who ultimately were hurt by what they essentially forced on the players in the last CBA. And yes, they never predicted how it could work against them. But now wanting to make up for those losses by cutting into already negotiated contracts.

Players may be well aware when they're negotiating contracts that CBA rule changes could effect those contracts, but surely most players negotiated their contracts with the idea that what was signed in the end would be what the contract stood for. Now I dare ask, did the owners negotiate those contracts (which had dates extending beyond the last CBA's expiration) with the same faith that those contracts wouldn't be altered in a way to work negatively against what the player was agreeing to at the time? I'm beginning to suspect that could there well have been a fair bit of dishonorable negotiation on the part of many contracts they made with players in the last year or two, knowing damn well that they were going to be demanding $ value changes in this CBA.
You keep bringing that up. Contracts where never guaranteed to be paid 100% of the amount written. So that's nothing new. And if the owners were handing out these contracts hoping they would have to pay less, why were all those players who signed before the CBA expired so eager to do so?

And to your first point. I just don't see how it is relevant who had more of their ideas implemented in the last CBA. It doesn't matter diddly squat to me. The system is not perfect, so it's needs to be corrected. I couldn't care less who's idea which part of the CBA was.


Last edited by Milliardo: 10-29-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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10-29-2012, 10:32 AM
  #122
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The players have to realize it's not a concession exchange. It's what the league has to do in order to have a good chance of success for the franchises, not how to line the players pockets in different ways.
... of course, and to assume that their not aware of that, unable to grasp it is disrespectful. They simply dont like, dont approve of the manner in which the leagues going about it. Of course they want healthy franchises, prosperity for all, however, what we have here is a flawed business model. Systemic problems. Their demanding those issues be addressed, resolved.

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10-29-2012, 10:35 AM
  #123
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... of course, and to assume that their not aware of that, unable to grasp it is disrespectful. They simply dont like, dont approve of the manner in which the leagues going about it. Of course they want healthy franchises, prosperity for all, however, what we have here is a flawed business model. Systemic problems. Their demanding those issues be addressed, resolved.
Their offers just focus on their cut of hrr now though.
curiouser and curiouser....

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10-29-2012, 10:36 AM
  #124
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Because if the players cave there will be hockey, maybe some of them will get a bit less money, but who really cares?

If the owners cave, then peoples favorite teams may be at financial risk.

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10-29-2012, 10:51 AM
  #125
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... I suppose that depends on your perspective, preconceived notions, which side of the fence you fall on; Players or Owners? Perhaps your a Fence Sitter, taking neither's side, dispassionately & objectively considering both sides positions, critical of each. Id prefer to hear from both sides, no Gag Orders at all. Lets hear what Tennebaum in Toronto, Jacobs out of Boston, Gaglardi in Dallas have to say, with followup questions & no subject out of bounds. Then we/ll see who's "greedy", sounds like a "fool".

If Im "pro player" (which I am), pretty much everything thats come out of hired guns Bettman & Dalys' mouth's has been disingenuous. Carefully chosen words designed to obfuscate & mis-direct, reversing the onus of responsibility for the BOG's failures as businessmen & stewards of the game onto the backs of the players, rolling back grounds gained. The NHL is the author of its own demise, unwilling to look in the mirror and address systemic flaws within its business model.
That's exactly what they're trying to do. The systemic flaw at the moment is that players get too much of the revenue, with increased costs during the last CBA it has got to the stage where too many teams are losing money. Revenue is up, profits are down, therefore you have to cut operational costs - in this case player salary. They've probably already cut every other cost that they can.

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