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Why so much hatred and criticism towards the players?

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10-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #176
CpatainCanuck
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Every time I see a player say "we just wanna play" it makes me want to kick a puppy.

If you "just wanna play" then you would have done everything you could have to play a full season.
Indeed: perhaps someone should inform the players what "just" in that sentence means.

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3
a : only, simply <just last year> <just be yourself>

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10-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Sorry to be an annoyance, but again, how do you know that? What IFs? I thought we didn't have access to the exact details that Fehr presented to Bettman.
The last three options:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ter-to-players

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10-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Sorry to be an annoyance, but again, how do you know that? What IFs? I thought we didn't have access to the exact details that Fehr presented to Bettman.
"If the league grows at 5%. this is how we concede so much to get to 50/50 in several years."
"If the league grows at 7%, balabla"

But what IF the league grows at 4%? or -4%?

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10-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Your statement is just as reasonable as Couture inventing random numbers like 25% salary reduction out there. That supposed concession would only be real under certain projections and conditions. Passionate HF fans don't like being lied to by Fehr and NHLPA. Otherwise, most HFers would still be on the players' side.
Can you provide an article detailing the NHL proposal to the NHLPA linking league revenues to salaries WITHOUT considering a market increase of 5% as the players have done?

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10-29-2012, 04:18 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Owners have more leverage overall.

However, players have more leverage within the media. For a few reasons:

1) Players have actual relationships with the media guys, the owners do not share the same type of relationship.
2) Media needs the players more than the owners. Although we have seen petty disputes between owners and media (Wang and Botta come to mind) lead to a blackball of some sorts. If a media member is deemed to be anti-player, players can easily blackball him.
3) Media in general leans pro-labor, pro-union.

I think its a difficult argument to make that the owners have been receiving the better press. Larry Brooks, Greg Wyshniski and countless others have essentially doubled as a PR wing for the PA.
This is pretty silly. All of the guys that own teams are multi-billionaires, and they have money and connections with people in media that actually matter. They OWN the NHL and all 30 teams!

Maybe people on HF pay attention to what are essentially beat reporters for teams, but I think the reality is that these guys are pretty insignificant.

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10-29-2012, 04:20 PM
  #181
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Basically the players have to posture because that is how you negotiate, The owners look like good guys because they make the players sound like jerks due to their control of the relevant media. Honestly is there any sense to believing that one side in this matter is as at fault as the players have been represented as being?

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10-29-2012, 04:21 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Sorry to be an annoyance, but again, how do you know that? What IFs? I thought we didn't have access to the exact details that Fehr presented to Bettman.
Their proposal was not to give any concessions, but to reduce their raise in salaries future years. So when they say that NHL would get to 50/50 in year 5, that means they gave up zero dollars. Owners on the otherhand want linkage so they have a certain % from the start.

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10-29-2012, 04:23 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
This is pretty silly. All of the guys that own teams are multi-billionaires, and they have money and connections with people in media that actually matter. They OWN the NHL and all 30 teams!

Maybe people on HF pay attention to what are essentially beat reporters for teams, but I think the reality is that these guys are pretty insignificant.
I hate to break it to you, but people outside the hockey media (beat writers, CBC, TSN, Sportsnet crews) care very little about this issue. There have not been any real stories about this issue from FoxNews, CNN, New York Times, Washington Post. Even the guys covering it for the NYT and Washington Post are insignificant beat writer/sports columnist type guys.

If you could point me to some stories that would be great, and I'd definitely rethink my stance.

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10-29-2012, 04:26 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Can you provide an article detailing the NHL proposal to the NHLPA linking league revenues to salaries WITHOUT considering a market increase of 5% as the players have done?
Having certain positive growth projections is just one of the many IFs. The NHLPA's offers doesn't give up any salary but future salary raises while protecting itself from any risks.

More details on their IFs here:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ter-to-players

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10-29-2012, 04:29 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Having certain positive growth projections is just one of the many IFs. The NHLPA's offers doesn't give up any salary but future salary raises while protecting itself from any risks.

More details on their IFs here:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ter-to-players
Yeah that's just dumb. Then they wonder why the NHL doesn't even look at their offers.

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10-29-2012, 04:32 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Can you provide an article detailing the NHL proposal to the NHLPA linking league revenues to salaries WITHOUT considering a market increase of 5% as the players have done?
ALL NHL proposals have been with linkage, regardless of what the growth was.

The NHL, showed what contracts would look like w/ 5% growth so the NHLPA would have an exapmle of what they were proposing.

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10-29-2012, 04:33 PM
  #187
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The criticism towards the players stems from
-The NHLPA making no effort to negotiate until the last month or 2, they had months and months, and the NHL was ready to meet, the NHLPA delayed and stalled the process
-The repeated stupid comments by the players showing complete ignorance

frankly at this point both sides can go **** themselves for ruining the league

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10-29-2012, 04:43 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I hate to break it to you, but people outside the hockey media (beat writers, CBC, TSN, Sportsnet crews) care very little about this issue. There have not been any real stories about this issue from FoxNews, CNN, New York Times, Washington Post. Even the guys covering it for the NYT and Washington Post are insignificant beat writer/sports columnist type guys.

If you could point me to some stories that would be great, and I'd definitely rethink my stance.
I'm thinking of canned narrative where the owners sent a reasonable proposal to the players, just begging them to start the season again, and big bad Fehr says only that "it is just a start" as if the NHL players are supposed to run and agree to any deal that gets offered to them.

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10-29-2012, 05:08 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I'm thinking of canned narrative where the owners sent a reasonable proposal to the players, just begging them to start the season again, and big bad Fehr says only that "it is just a start" as if the NHL players are supposed to run and agree to any deal that gets offered to them.
Sure, point me to an article (it'll be hard). Most of the pro-owner talk is on HFBoards (the premier NHL hockey forum. Everywhere else, people have essentially taken a neutral or pro-player stance. That's media driven. Again, please show me these articles and I'll reconsider. My guess is that you will have a hard time finding more than one or two from a mainstream media member.

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10-29-2012, 05:09 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I'm thinking of canned narrative where the owners sent a reasonable proposal to the players, just begging them to start the season again, and big bad Fehr says only that "it is just a start" as if the NHL players are supposed to run and agree to any deal that gets offered to them.
Don't they "just wanna play". There was some negotiating that could have been done of the last NHL offer, they chose to present their previous offers in blue ink not black.

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10-29-2012, 05:12 PM
  #191
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There is no reason for a NHL fan to be happy of either side until this is solved.

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10-29-2012, 05:15 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
Don't they "just wanna play". There was some negotiating that could have been done of the last NHL offer, they chose to present their previous offers in blue ink not black.
Not just that but why did the PA wait so long to even begin talking about a new CBA? Reports are that they never even sat down with the league until late summer.

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10-29-2012, 05:17 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Sure, point me to an article (it'll be hard). Most of the pro-owner talk is on HFBoards (the premier NHL hockey forum. Everywhere else, people have essentially taken a neutral or pro-player stance. That's media driven. Again, please show me these articles and I'll reconsider. My guess is that you will have a hard time finding more than one or two from a mainstream media member.
I honestly have not seen a single person with a pro-player stance. So there's that, and then, you look at the 50-50 split thing - that's totally manipulative. Every average person is basically vulnerable to the "fifty-fifty" argument because it makes intuitive sense, even though it doesn't necessarily apply as a relevant standard in this situation.

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10-29-2012, 05:18 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Tomas W View Post
There is no reason for a NHL fan to be happy of either side until this is solved.
I think this is my main point. The players are getting an unfair share of the blame, because it's always stories about them missing meetings, them not negotiatng or whatever. Who knows what actually happened over the phones or in the offices between the two camps.

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10-29-2012, 05:26 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
For one thing, most hockey fans have never heard of the majority of hockey players.

Also, "can't envy someone you've never heard of" is just not true. How many billionaires can you name off the top of your head? There are only 1200 of them, shouldn't be too hard to name at least 30, right?
Most hockey fans know who's skating for their favorite club, at least, plus the league's superstars and several of its notorious goons and agitators. They also know how much each player is paid, 'cause it's public knowledge, and they know how each player earns it.

It's the same story anytime there's a labor dispute: "Why should grocery clerks/autoworkers/teachers get all that, when I'm busting my ass for crumbs? What makes them think they deserve it? They oughta suck it up and take what they're offered, same as me."

Meanwhile, the owners are invisible, more or less, as is their income and how they earn it.

Look. This is pretty simple. If you're going to be gouged for tickets and beer at the hockey game, who would you rather proceeds go to? The talent? Or the middleman?

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10-29-2012, 05:30 PM
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I honestly have not seen a single person with a pro-player stance. So there's that, and then, you look at the 50-50 split thing - that's totally manipulative. Every average person is basically vulnerable to the "fifty-fifty" argument because it makes intuitive sense, even though it doesn't necessarily apply as a relevant standard in this situation.
Link me to a pro-owner article. You will have a hard time finding me more than two.

Since you haven't seen pro-player articles, I'll link you to a couple (literally took me 20 seconds of googling for each:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...1pFCALdURGuK4N

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...n_partnership/

There are so many more. And you have failed to link me to one pro-owner article (I know they are there but its few and far between), despite the fact that they are apparently so prevalent.

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10-29-2012, 05:32 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Link me to a pro-owner article. You will have a hard time finding me more than two.

Since you haven't seen pro-player articles, I'll link you to a couple (literally took me 20 seconds of googling for each:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...1pFCALdURGuK4N

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...n_partnership/

There are so many more. And you have failed to link me to one pro-owner article (I know they are there but its few and far between), despite the fact that they are apparently so prevalent.
The owners are under a gag order. Meanwhile, the NHLPA is (probably) running an entire interview campaign where they order the players to spread their message via interviews. The media itself has become the NHLPA's puppet.

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10-29-2012, 05:36 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Link me to a pro-owner article. You will have a hard time finding me more than two.

Since you haven't seen pro-player articles, I'll link you to a couple (literally took me 20 seconds of googling for each:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...1pFCALdURGuK4N

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...n_partnership/

There are so many more. And you have failed to link me to one pro-owner article (I know they are there but its few and far between), despite the fact that they are apparently so prevalent.
This article isn't in favor of the owners, but it basically explains my point better.
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...fer-to-players

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10-29-2012, 05:47 PM
  #199
Renbarg
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
This article isn't in favor of the owners, but it basically explains my point better.
http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...fer-to-players
That's just going over the owner's details while heavily quoting the actual text. There is no real bias there.

I thought you had some real evidence backing up your claim that the media is manipulating the masses in this situation to take a pro-owner stance. I guess not.

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10-29-2012, 05:54 PM
  #200
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I have no hatred towards players I just want them to know how good they have it.The average canadian makes 46 thousand a year.It would take 92 years of work to make 4 million dollars.If it were not for our need for hero worship and entertainment there would be no need for the sport

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