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Why so much hatred and criticism towards the players?

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Old
10-29-2012, 05:58 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Model62 View Post
Look. This is pretty simple. If you're going to be gouged for tickets and beer at the hockey game, who would you rather proceeds go to? The talent? Or the middleman?
Honestly? I don't care. Both sides are fabulously wealthy and it literally makes no difference in my life which side gets more crumbs from this deal.

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10-29-2012, 06:06 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
That's just going over the owner's details while heavily quoting the actual text. There is no real bias there.

I thought you had some real evidence backing up your claim that the media is manipulating the masses in this situation to take a pro-owner stance. I guess not.
Wow sorry I'm not going to waste my time looking through google. I have seen plenty of evidence in the language that is used by articles written on the subject.

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10-29-2012, 06:08 PM
  #203
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And you didn't read the article. Nor my post, in which I said, yes the article isn't biased. what the heck man? my point is that the offer was totally just posturing designed to manipulate the narrative of the players 'just wanting to play' and 50-50 being fair

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10-29-2012, 06:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
And you didn't read the article. Nor my post, in which I said, yes the article isn't biased. what the heck man? my point is that the offer was totally just posturing designed to manipulate the narrative of the players 'just wanting to play' and 50-50 being fair
You say the owners have connections to the media, and use said connections.

I have not seen a shred of evidence speaking to that point.

If you can provide some evidence that would be great, I would love to be wrong, but thus far the media has been firmly on the player's side.

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10-29-2012, 06:26 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
You say the owners have connections to the media, and use said connections.

I have not seen a shred of evidence speaking to that point.

If you can provide some evidence that would be great, I would love to be wrong, but thus far the media has been firmly on the player's side.
I also question how unbiased "neutral" articles are. And isn't that fairly obvious, why would some Canadian athlete know more media people than a dude who is a multibillionaire? it obviously makes no sense

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10-29-2012, 06:30 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I also question how unbiased "neutral" articles are. And isn't that fairly obvious, why would some Canadian athlete know more media people than a dude who is a multibillionaire? it obviously makes no sense
It's actually pretty damn obvious that the majority of the hockey media strike a pro-player stance. Just pay attention to Twitter on any given evening when Proteau, Dater and the like are spouting Fehr's talking points word-for-word. Those guys have a massive audience and actively campaign for the players -- seen anyone doing that for the owners?

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10-29-2012, 06:33 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It's actually pretty damn obvious that the majority of the hockey media strike a pro-player stance. Just pay attention to Twitter on any given evening when Proteau, Dater and the like are spouting Fehr's talking points word-for-word. Those guys have a massive audience and actively campaign for the players -- seen anyone doing that for the owners?
Okay I really don't know how many people follow those guys. I'm specifically thinking of the incident where the league submitted the "fair" fifty - fifty offer with no intention of actually creating an arrangement, just trying to look like the reasonable/good guys whereas the NHL players are greedy for wanting to keep the split that they got before. I think the perception of NHL players as greedy is the most common of all the opinions, and that's exactly how the owners want it.

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10-29-2012, 06:34 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I also question how unbiased "neutral" articles are. And isn't that fairly obvious, why would some Canadian athlete know more media people than a dude who is a multibillionaire? it obviously makes no sense
Its not that they know more media people its that they know the right media people. And the right people in this situation ain't the Murdochs of the world, its the little guys like Brooks, Dater, and Kypreos. The owners have much less face to face time with these guys than any of the players. And in the future it is more important to these guys to maintain that relationship with the player more so than with the owner.

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10-29-2012, 06:35 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Its not that they know more media people its that they know the right media people. And the right people in this situation ain't the Murdochs of the world, its the little guys like Brooks, Dater, and Kypreos. The owners have much less face to face time with these guys than any of the players. And in the future it is more important to these guys to maintain that relationship with the player more so than with the owner.
I don't see how those guys are influential at all. I bet maybe 100,000 people care what they think if that.

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10-29-2012, 06:36 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I don't see how those guys are influential at all. I bet maybe 100,000 people care what they think if that.
But they're the ones talking about the lockout! They are the media in this case. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

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10-29-2012, 06:44 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I have no hatred for the players.

I just don't understand their position or end game because they won't tell us their position. Then some open their mouths and speak about things that are not even in the current proposals, like salary roll backs. It just confuses the masses and sounds like spin to get the PR on their side.

The whole "honoring" contracts is another way to confuse the public. The fact that all contracts signed during the last CBA where never "honored" as the NHLPA claims they should be is never spoken, it is just about paying them the number on their contract, which goes against the last CBA. It's misleading to the public and is pure PR/propaganda.
Bingo.

The players seem to just be parroting their agents and team reps without knowing what they're talking about. It just ends up spreading inaccurate and confusing information that then gets passed along as fact by idiots which is plainly demonstrated here on HF.

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10-29-2012, 06:47 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
Its not that they know more media people its that they know the right media people. And the right people in this situation ain't the Murdochs of the world, its the little guys like Brooks, Dater, and Kypreos. The owners have much less face to face time with these guys than any of the players. And in the future it is more important to these guys to maintain that relationship with the player more so than with the owner.
I agree. For example David Thomson co-owner of the Jets owns the Globe and Mail through his holding company Woodbridge. Through out the lockout the Globe and Mail has been very pro NHLPA. I get the impression Thomson worries about this as much as he worries about what fertilizer his gardner uses on the rose bushes.

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10-29-2012, 09:24 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
I don't like it. Don't like the 5% and the 7.2% and getting to 50% in five years, and all of that. I think it's fairly indefinite speculative calculations. However, I Do understand what I believe to be Fehr's objective. He's simply trying to offer alternatives that could satisfy his constituents' objectives. He's being creative, and he's presenting options. I think it was totally unproductive for Bettman to simply dismiss it all out of hand.

As I've been saying, I understand and accept that the players don't want their established contracts to be reduced in $ value. But at the same time, I understand that the League wants to establish nothing higher for the players than a 50/50 split, and they want that immediately. I think that within those two objectives is where compromise needs to be found.

1) I'd begin by establishing the 2011-12 Salary Cap as the base, frozen at that level until revenues increase to the point where 50/50 goes higher than the 2011-12 mark.

2) I'd honor all pre-existing contracts, but contracts negotiated this past summer would need to be recalculated within the 50/50 margins. All signing contracts would be opened to re-negotiation with other teams if the player so desired.

3) All new contracts moving forward from this date are done using the 50/50.

4) Teams which have players who have increasing salaries previously contracted, those teams will have to find ways of keeping their total player salaries within the frozen 2011-12 levels, if that means trading off a player then so be it. Teams should have to adjust to this changed salary structure just as player will.

5) At the end of 5 years, all remaining older contracts will change to the 50/50 split.

** I would imagine that it would only take about 2 years and the 50/50 split would be pretty much equivalent then to the 2011-2012 salary levels


Hey, the League needs to get creative and give the PA a counter offer. I think that something like the above gives something to both sides.

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10-29-2012, 10:04 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I don't like it. Don't like the 5% and the 7.2% and getting to 50% in five years, and all of that. I think it's fairly indefinite speculative calculations. However, I Do understand what I believe to be Fehr's objective. He's simply trying to offer alternatives that could satisfy his constituents' objectives. He's being creative, and he's presenting options. I think it was totally unproductive for Bettman to simply dismiss it all out of hand.

As I've been saying, I understand and accept that the players don't want their established contracts to be reduced in $ value. But at the same time, I understand that the League wants to establish nothing higher for the players than a 50/50 split, and they want that immediately. I think that within those two objectives is where compromise needs to be found.

1) I'd begin by establishing the 2011-12 Salary Cap as the base, frozen at that level until revenues increase to the point where 50/50 goes higher than the 2011-12 mark.

2) I'd honor all pre-existing contracts, but contracts negotiated this past summer would need to be recalculated within the 50/50 margins. All signing contracts would be opened to re-negotiation with other teams if the player so desired.

3) All new contracts moving forward from this date are done using the 50/50.

4) Teams which have players who have increasing salaries previously contracted, those teams will have to find ways of keeping their total player salaries within the frozen 2011-12 levels, if that means trading off a player then so be it. Teams should have to adjust to this changed salary structure just as player will.

5) At the end of 5 years, all remaining older contracts will change to the 50/50 split.

** I would imagine that it would only take about 2 years and the 50/50 split would be pretty much equivalent then to the 2011-2012 salary levels


Hey, the League needs to get creative and give the PA a counter offer. I think that something like the above gives something to both sides.
If the leagues make concessions first AGAIN, Fehr will simply assume that the owners' rank is getting weaker by the day and will try to break the owners. I can't even imagine how much "artificial" leverage he'd make the players think they would have. Fehr the master negotiator only cares about continuing his legacy in the end IMHO.

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10-29-2012, 10:13 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Hey, the League needs to get creative and give the PA a counter offer. I think that something like the above gives something to both sides.
I think the league should take a page from the PA and counter with the same offer they gave last time.

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10-29-2012, 10:14 PM
  #216
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Most hockey fans know who's skating for their favorite club, at least, plus the league's superstars and several of its notorious goons and agitators. They also know how much each player is paid, 'cause it's public knowledge, and they know how each player earns it.

It's the same story anytime there's a labor dispute: "Why should grocery clerks/autoworkers/teachers get all that, when I'm busting my ass for crumbs? What makes them think they deserve it? They oughta suck it up and take what they're offered, same as me."

Meanwhile, the owners are invisible, more or less, as is their income and how they earn it.

Look. This is pretty simple. If you're going to be gouged for tickets and beer at the hockey game, who would you rather proceeds go to? The talent? Or the middleman?
The owners are not "the middleman". They are "the man". They are the ones who have provided the resources to ensure you have the chance to watch the players compete. Without the owners, you have no team to watch. So I ask you this - who would you rather see your money go to? The person who provides the tickets and beer for this year and the next ten years, or give it all to the talent who may play one year in your city and be replaced next year? Which one gives the committment financially to ensure you can enjoy hockey in your city?

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10-29-2012, 10:32 PM
  #217
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I'm on the players side. You can talk all you want about how they make way more money than reglar people do but consider a few things:

1. They play for, at best, 20 years and then a lot of them have no jobs to fall back on unless they get an office job from a team.

2. They get injured and that stuff does not just go away, they got to live with damaged bodies for their entire lives, and sometimes they barely live at all (concussions).

3. They travel all the time and do not get to spend that much time with their families.

4. Even when the season ends they still gotta train and watch what they eat all the time, or else risk getting phased out.

This isn't even talking about the 3rd and 4th line grinders who barely play at all and have to fight like hell to get contracts.

Finally, The NHL isn't even negotiating, sure they offered 50/50 split which is better than their previous position a bit... players still do not get their cushion into the 50/50, and the NHL won't even talk about the other aspects like contract length and free agency. The Owners are giving up almost nothing, but making it look like they are. We as fans obviously want hockey to start, but I'm not gonna take that at the expense of players getting destroyed by the NHL just because they don't wanna agree to something that gives them nothing.

The players even said they would take this **** if the GM's paid them what they signed them for.

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10-29-2012, 10:43 PM
  #218
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We as fans obviously want hockey to start, but I'm not gonna take that at the expense of players getting destroyed by the NHL just because they don't wanna agree to something that gives them nothing.
Ha, destroyed.
They didn't "LOSE" last time (except for the year of salary they lost by not accepting a cap from the beginning), and they wouldn't be losing now had they negotiated and come to terms under the last NHL offer.
Now they ARE losing, through no ones fault but their own.

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The players even said they would take this **** if the GM's paid them what they signed them for.
When is everyone going to get up to speed on this issue?

The last offer from the NHL was going to pay them what they signed for.

The "make whole" provision.

Why are even the players still harping on this...ancient history?

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10-29-2012, 10:51 PM
  #219
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I'm on the players side. You can talk all you want about how they make way more money than reglar people do but consider a few things:

1. They play for, at best, 20 years and then a lot of them have no jobs to fall back on unless they get an office job from a team.

In that 20 years they will have amassed the financial security that no fan will ever enjoy. If the players are unable to ensure their future after earning multiple millions, that is a result of their stupidity.

2. They get injured and that stuff does not just go away, they got to live with damaged bodies for their entire lives, and sometimes they barely live at all (concussions).

3. They travel all the time and do not get to spend that much time with their families.

They play a game that allows them the opportunity to stay at home for 4 months of the year. Did you get that chance this year?

4. Even when the season ends they still gotta train and watch what they eat all the time, or else risk getting phased out.

This is part of their employment...no different than Joe Public having to constantly upgrade their skills to ensure that they are not replaced by someone else. These guys play hockey for a living. A big part of it is training. This is no more a hardship than an accountant having to repeatedly take courses to maintain and increase their ability to be at the top of their "game".

This isn't even talking about the 3rd and 4th line grinders who barely play at all and have to fight like hell to get contracts.

Yet none of the "superstars" have made one comment that indicates they are in this for the "little guy". They are all in it for their own financial security.

Finally, The NHL isn't even negotiating, sure they offered 50/50 split which is better than their previous position a bit... players still do not get their cushion into the 50/50, and the NHL won't even talk about the other aspects like contract length and free agency. The Owners are giving up almost nothing, but making it look like they are. We as fans obviously want hockey to start, but I'm not gonna take that at the expense of players getting destroyed by the NHL just because they don't wanna agree to something that gives them nothing.

The players even said they would take this **** if the GM's paid them what they signed them for.
There are a hundred players waiting in junior/Europe waiting to take the jobs from the players if this lockout lasts a year and certain players fall by the wayside.

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10-29-2012, 11:59 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Okay I really don't know how many people follow those guys.

To put my previous post in perspective, Adrian Dater is the Avalanche beat writer and hockey columnist for the Denver Post (daily circulation: 400,000), hockey columnist at SI.com (unique visitors per month: 6 million), and has 12,000 Twitter followers. Adam Proteau is a columnist at The Hockey News (monthly circulation: 225,000) and has 30,000 Twitter followers. Both of their articles are reposted widely on forums like HF and throughout the blogosphere. It's a pretty safe bet that their total audience for each column is in the millions, and they are unabashedly pro-player.

Those are just the two that came to mind immediately. There are quite a few others (Larry Brooks is the next to roll off the tongue) and their audience adds up to millions and millions. And unlike the occasional news wire release, they are active daily, 24/7, providing a mouthpiece and bullhorn to Fehr's talking points.

The fact that the players are losing the PR battle with that much of a home-field advantage is astonishing. It says something about their inability to manage their messages that they are basically beating themselves up in the press. I'd go so far as to say the owners have probably been so quiet because they have scaled back an anticipated PR blitz after realizing that the less they say, the more the NHLPA harms its own cause.

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10-30-2012, 12:08 AM
  #221
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Yeah.. let's not reward these players who are the most skilled hockey players in the entire world. Let's all back these owners which have super awesome financial skills. I'd love it for them to get paid, as we all know, those billionaire's have had it tough..

If we don't pay 'em the best.. we wouldn't have the best league with the best players.

Yes I realize I'm being stupid...

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10-30-2012, 12:10 AM
  #222
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Those journalists are willing to spin the facts to intentionally mislead their readers just because they want the players to give them interviews and scoops when the lockout ends.

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10-30-2012, 05:22 AM
  #223
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I think the players are less sympathetic because they aren't being upfront about what they want. Say what you will about the owners, they've been very clear that they want a system that gives them more money because according to their numbers, a lot of franchises need it to stay afloat. What do the players want? Not money obviously, since they've already lost more than they would have gained even if their past proposals were accepted. Not "to play," because if that were the case they'd propose some sort of linked proposal that is more in their favor in order to get down to real negotiations and then start playing. I honestly don't know what they're shooting for and it seems like they might not either.

On top of that, the players are constantly spitting out statements that obviously misrepresent the facts if you've been paying attention.

1. They say owners want to "not honor their contracts" because "honoring a contract" is equal to paying 100% of the number they signed for as is their contracts were never going to adjust to the CBA. Untrue.

2. "We were willing to play under the old CBA" makes no sense at all. If they were willing to negotiate while playing, why didn't they start negotiating during last season? It'd be the same exact situation as extending the CBA a year and negotiating then.

3. "We offered 50/50" has been proven mathematically to be untrue. They offered situations which might, if everything goes as they planned, provide 50/50 at some point down the line.

4. They say the league has record revenues therefore they all deserve raises as if revenues = profits.

5. They keep repeating that they lost the last CBA even though their averages wages increased 100% over an 8 year period.

The owners are upfront about why they want what they want. It's money. The players haven't articulated exactly what they hope to get out of this, and they've attempted to justify their mysterious demands with misrepresentations of reality at every step. I dont think either side is objectively "right" but I find it alot easier to understand what the owners want and why they want it.
This is exactly how I feel and I would really like someone who thinks he/she understands the players to explain it to me. And I don't do this to start a fight, I would really just like to know.


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10-30-2012, 05:40 AM
  #224
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Why? Because I have a twitter account. And because the players try to identify with the fans, which isn't possible.

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10-30-2012, 05:51 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by BlazingRoy View Post
I'm on the players side. You can talk all you want about how they make way more money than reglar people do but consider a few things:

1. They play for, at best, 20 years and then a lot of them have no jobs to fall back on unless they get an office job from a team.

2. They get injured and that stuff does not just go away, they got to live with damaged bodies for their entire lives, and sometimes they barely live at all (concussions).

3. They travel all the time and do not get to spend that much time with their families.

4. Even when the season ends they still gotta train and watch what they eat all the time, or else risk getting phased out.

This isn't even talking about the 3rd and 4th line grinders who barely play at all and have to fight like hell to get contracts.

Finally, The NHL isn't even negotiating, sure they offered 50/50 split which is better than their previous position a bit... players still do not get their cushion into the 50/50, and the NHL won't even talk about the other aspects like contract length and free agency. The Owners are giving up almost nothing, but making it look like they are. We as fans obviously want hockey to start, but I'm not gonna take that at the expense of players getting destroyed by the NHL just because they don't wanna agree to something that gives them nothing.

The players even said they would take this **** if the GM's paid them what they signed them for.
This doesn't make sense. You might want to read up what happend this summer.

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