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Old
01-16-2013, 07:37 PM
  #226
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Cleary, Bert, Sammy, Miller, Abby, Eaves, should all be rotating for spots.

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01-16-2013, 07:57 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I just wonder if they are getting the feeling no matter what they do they won't be rewarded in Detroit and that worries me.
This is my biggest concern, and I really don't see how it is not a bigger issue considering how conservative Detroit has been with their approach to prospects. I mean if I am them , especially Gus, I'm just wondering how high is the bar to make the Wings? Do I have to get 1.5 ppg? 2 ppg?

I can see why sometimes prospects development may stagger in Grand Rapids, what's the incentive to play and produce when you are consistently buried for veteran players, and they keep bringing in more veteran players when you feel like you are close.

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01-16-2013, 09:11 PM
  #228
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5 grinders istoo many IMO. You only need 3, maybe a spare. But then you have Bert and Cleary who are kind of grinders too. IMO 3 skilled lines of good, younger, faster lines + 1 grind line. Not old, slower, physical. Cleary, Bert, Eaves are completely expendable if you ask me. Cleary maybe for his leadership role could be put to use.
The only thing Bert is grinding on is Shea Weber's leg.

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01-16-2013, 09:15 PM
  #229
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Cleary, Bert, Sammy, Miller, Abby, Eaves, should all be rotating for spots.
On different teams.

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01-16-2013, 09:26 PM
  #230
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The only thing Bert is grinding on is Shea Weber's leg.
I believe that Bert may have a little Mississippi Leg Hound in him, and Weber probably agrees.


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01-17-2013, 12:26 AM
  #231
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At some point, this kids wants a big league salary.
Even more than that, at some point you want to make progress.

3 years straight of GR.

We're killing our prospects and I guarantee you that Detroit is developing a rep among youngsters as a place that doesn't give kids a chance.
Mursak should have gotten his chance two years ago, but...Mike Modano and company
Nyquist should have been in the AHL after his sophomore year and getting his rookie shot last year. Tatar should have had his rookie shot last year.

I can't think of a single prospect who spent 2-3 years in GR who I can say, "Yep, we developed him well."

Maybe Kopecky.
No kidding. I could almost understand it if they had solid veterans taking up the roster slots... but signing Samuelsson again? Why on earth would they do that if it threatens the development and retention of Tatar, Mursak, Nyquist, etc? It's insanity.

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01-17-2013, 01:21 AM
  #232
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No kidding. I could almost understand it if they had solid veterans taking up the roster slots... but signing Samuelsson again? Why on earth would they do that if it threatens the development and retention of Tatar, Mursak, Nyquist, etc? It's insanity.
I'm not sure if signing Samuelsson is the problem, considering he is a right handed shot with a big body, two things Detroit wanted. I think the problem is just that Holland isn't finding ways to make room for Nyquist and Tatar. It's the hard decisions Holland is avoiding, like letting go of Bertuzzi and Cleary, two guys that are well respected and liked among the Detroit fanbase (not necessarily on this website). Personally, I don't think the Samuelsson signing is all that bad, except maybe his cap hit and length, which is irrelevant now that Detroit isn't even going near the cap ceiling. I am sure a million people disagree with me on this, but I like Samuelsson as a player and think his signing addressed a need this team had. With that being said, I'd obviously love to see both Nyquist and Tatar on the NHL roster this season, it's unfortunate that the front office won't do anything to make it happen.

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01-17-2013, 12:44 PM
  #233
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The only thing Bert is grinding on is Shea Weber's leg.

Berta is a powerforward.

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01-17-2013, 02:40 PM
  #234
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I'm not sure if signing Samuelsson is the problem, considering he is a right handed shot with a big body, two things Detroit wanted. I think the problem is just that Holland isn't finding ways to make room for Nyquist and Tatar. It's the hard decisions Holland is avoiding, like letting go of Bertuzzi and Cleary, two guys that are well respected and liked among the Detroit fanbase (not necessarily on this website). Personally, I don't think the Samuelsson signing is all that bad, except maybe his cap hit and length, which is irrelevant now that Detroit isn't even going near the cap ceiling. I am sure a million people disagree with me on this, but I like Samuelsson as a player and think his signing addressed a need this team had. With that being said, I'd obviously love to see both Nyquist and Tatar on the NHL roster this season, it's unfortunate that the front office won't do anything to make it happen.
What most people forget about "over ripe" players is that their contract ends up being cheaper. Mursak and Nyquist will be RFA next year and with barely any "NHL" experience and stats, they will not have massive deals, maybe 2-3 year deals at 2 or less million if not another two way deal. That is brilliant move by Holland because it will keep Wings competitive in the UFA market. Tatar will probably see a bit more time next year as his contract will expire after next year. Cleary is gone next year, by the time Bert and Samuellsson expire, you will have Tatar ready to make an impact.

I would look towards Filppula is a good example of this. He is a bargain and has been because of the way he has been brought up.

In this CAP era you cant just bring up the best players, you need to draw them out to make them cost less.

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01-17-2013, 02:41 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
What most people forget about "over ripe" players is that their contract ends up being cheaper. Mursak and Nyquist will be RFA next year and with barely any "NHL" experience and stats, they will not have massive deals, maybe 2-3 year deals at 2 or less million if not another two way deal. That is brilliant move by Holland because it will keep Wings competitive in the UFA market. Tatar will probably see a bit more time next year as his contract will expire after next year. Cleary is gone next year, by the time Bert and Samuellsson expire, you will have Tatar ready to make an impact.
Wow, what a great silver lining

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01-17-2013, 04:50 PM
  #236
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What most people forget about "over ripe" players is that their contract ends up being cheaper. Mursak and Nyquist will be RFA next year and with barely any "NHL" experience and stats, they will not have massive deals, maybe 2-3 year deals at 2 or less million if not another two way deal. That is brilliant move by Holland because it will keep Wings competitive in the UFA market. Tatar will probably see a bit more time next year as his contract will expire after next year. Cleary is gone next year, by the time Bert and Samuellsson expire, you will have Tatar ready to make an impact.

I would look towards Filppula is a good example of this. He is a bargain and has been because of the way he has been brought up.

In this CAP era you cant just bring up the best players, you need to draw them out to make them cost less.
Does that really work in your favor if you piss off your players?

Here's how next year is going to play out for Nyquist: I want a one way deal. Put me in the NHL.

and if Holland won't do it, Nyquist might ask for a trade. If Samuelsson and Bertuzzi are better players, then clearly there is just not room in the organization for him. He'd be better off somewhere else.

Same thing with Tatar, but there won't be a trade. He'll ask to be given a shot at the NHL or he'll explore his options in the KHL.

This might become a textbook example of over-managing your contracts. It's nice to keep guys until they're ready, but if you keep NHL players in the AHL, you'll sour your relationship with them very quickly. What's worse is this is already getting around. There are rumors that kids don't want to be drafted by Detroit because they'll never get into the league.

Hell, you look at Justin Schultz. Detroit put an offer in on him. He probably laughed! He probably laughed his ass off. Detroit would have thrown his ass in the AHL. Edmonton will have him on the first pairing, probably.

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01-17-2013, 05:16 PM
  #237
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Hell, you look at Justin Schultz. Detroit put an offer in on him. He probably laughed! He probably laughed his ass off. Detroit would have thrown his ass in the AHL. Edmonton will have him on the first pairing, probably.
I agree with the majority of your post but IIRC when Detroit put a bid in for Schultz Holland basically said that they would give him a roster spot to start.

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The Red Wings are prepared to guarantee him a roster spot at the start of the season, something every team that pursues him will need to do.
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....their_pur.html

IMO they lost out because he'd get more ice time elsewhere and he wanted to play in Canada

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01-17-2013, 05:20 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
What most people forget about "over ripe" players is that their contract ends up being cheaper. Mursak and Nyquist will be RFA next year and with barely any "NHL" experience and stats, they will not have massive deals, maybe 2-3 year deals at 2 or less million if not another two way deal. That is brilliant move by Holland because it will keep Wings competitive in the UFA market. Tatar will probably see a bit more time next year as his contract will expire after next year. Cleary is gone next year, by the time Bert and Samuellsson expire, you will have Tatar ready to make an impact.

I would look towards Filppula is a good example of this. He is a bargain and has been because of the way he has been brought up.

In this CAP era you cant just bring up the best players, you need to draw them out to make them cost less.
Filppula actually ended up being forced into action in Detroit a year earlier than the DRW would have liked due to a forward failing his medical check up. So bringing Fil up a year earlier hasn't hurt his development or the DRW fiscal situation. Ken Holland literally can't spend all the cap space he's accrued.

Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader, nice players but not big minute forwards, both made it up to Detroit before their ELC expired. Again, it hasn't hindered their development and the Wings have them signed to reasonable contracts. Abby makes more than his value IMO but it's not worth getting worked up about.

At the other end of the spectrum both Jimmy Howard and Brendan Smith seemed to respond to being demoted to GR on their ELC by not performing at their best. A case can also be made for Jonathan Ericsson when he was demoted for his final year of AHL play rather than being able to play in Detroit when he'd clearly made the team. Their play had been called lackadaisical and inconsistent while playing for the Griffins. Some may criticize their work ethic - I have with Smith but that's primarily due to other bad decisions on his part - but if you were being grossly underpaid by your employer would you be chomping at the bit knowing it would make absolutely no difference? Tomas Tatar seems a bit mystified and has no idea what it will take for him to get a shot in Detroit. Two of those guys are very solid NHL'ers with Smith a lock to become one and Tatar seems destined to be at least a third liner. All of these guys are successful draft picks who had their development delayed to save some money. It just comes across as being conservative to a fault.

Finally, one other player who comes to mind: Jakub Kindl. He should be the pet project for Ken Holland's philosophy that you never put a guy in a situation he's not ready for in order to protect his confidence. How confident can Kindl be as a 25 year old who nearly made the Wings as a 19 year old but cannot lock down the 6th d-man spot 6 years later? Oh, but we got such a great bargain on Kindl!

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01-17-2013, 05:34 PM
  #239
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This just seems like Holland's "we're the Detroit Red Wings!" type hubris. He thinks prospects will wait because Detroit is such a great team and it'll be worth it in the end. But truthfully, these guys just want to start their careers. Every year they aren't in the NHL is a year they're losing 400+ thousand dollars. If they think they're good enough to start working, it no doubt seems unfair to them for Holland to say "sorry, you don't get the job this year" for arbitrary reasons. What's worse is that the kids are right and Holland is wrong in terms of competition. The team would be better off.

I think Holland failed the same way with Suter and Parise. He thought that they would take less to play for Detroit, and they made it abundantly clear that they would not. It's just hubris. He has some idea about Detroit as a team that is not at all grounded in reality.

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01-17-2013, 05:40 PM
  #240
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Guys like Helm, Abdelkader, Kronwall, Flip, etc. all made it on the way to the team after 2 years or less in GR. Smith would have done that too if there was no lockout this year and Nyquist will also be up, at the very least, permanently by next season even though he could still be sent back to GR. Its not like the organization requires all players to put in 3+ years in GR and all follow the exact same developmental cycle regardless of their progression and talent and role. Maybe there is a reason some players are brought up early and some are not.

Maybe those that do take a long time coming up from GR (like Kindl, like Emmerton, like Mursak) actually needed it to get better and simply were not ready to compete at the NHL level high enough to the Wings standards? When players like Kindl and Mursak take so long to come up from GR and then struggle to get a spot in the regular lineup when they are actually up permanently, maybe its not some random coincidence or conspiracy against youth. Other young players have cracked the lineup and carved out roles. Even Nyquist had a role on the team at the end of last season and in the playoffs and played some in the top 6 and was given an opportunity and that could very well happen again if they think he could help. Last year, though, he didn't really add much more than the alternatives and that has to be weighed for this present season. Kindl has played over 100 games in the NHL, Mursak has played 40+ games and they watch these guys everyday in practice. Maybe they don't play and are not just handed spots b/c they aren't that good and they think other players are better and they are trying to win.


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01-17-2013, 05:45 PM
  #241
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If guys like Bertuzzi and Samuelsson are still better than our top 23 year old prospect, then maybe we arent developing them correctly.

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01-17-2013, 05:49 PM
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Guys like... Abdelkader... all made it on the way to the team after 2 years or less in GR. Maybe there is a reason some players are brought up early and some are not.
and that's the thing: Abdelkader is very much a mediocre hockey player. I have no idea what their logic could possibly be for bringing him up so soon and yet making a guy like Nyquist wait.

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01-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #243
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If guys like Bertuzzi and Samuelsson are still better than our top 23 year old prospect, then maybe we arent developing them correctly.
Samuellson is not some scrub player, though. He was a top 6 forward in terms of ice time for a playoff team just last year. He also played top 6 minutes in terms of ice time for very good Canucks teams in 09-10 and 10-11 and played vital roles on elite Red Wing teams prior to that. I think fan's perception of his play and what management and coaches around the league think of him are in different directions based off his role and ice times when he was on good teams.

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01-17-2013, 06:00 PM
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Samuellson is not some scrub player, though. He was a top 6 forward in terms of ice time for a playoff team just last year. He also played top 6 minutes in terms of ice time for very good Canucks teams in 09-10 and 10-11 and played vital roles on elite Red Wing teams prior to that. I think fan's perception of his play and what management and coaches around the league think of him are in different directions based off his role and ice times when he was on good teams.
I won't argue with what he did on other teams, but he was certainly not vital for the Wings in any way. He was a third liner with a tendency to miss the net a lot.

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01-17-2013, 06:03 PM
  #245
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and that's the thing: Abdelkader is very much a mediocre hockey player. I have no idea what their logic could possibly be for bringing him up so soon and yet making a guy like Nyquist wait.
It's the role the team expects them to be in. Abdelkader wasn't supposed to be a goal scorer so that's why he was put on the 4th line right away. Do you want a guy who has top 6 upside playing 6-8 minutes in the NHL? No.

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01-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #246
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It's the role the team expects them to be in. Abdelkader wasn't supposed to be a goal scorer so that's why he was put on the 4th line right away. Do you want a guy who has top 6 upside playing 6-8 minutes in the NHL? No.
How many minutes a game is Nyquist or maybe even Tatar playing if Sammy isnt signed?

Stunting his growth so Sammy can ride off into the sunset.

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01-17-2013, 06:16 PM
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It's the role the team expects them to be in. Abdelkader wasn't supposed to be a goal scorer so that's why he was put on the 4th line right away. Do you want a guy who has top 6 upside playing 6-8 minutes in the NHL? No.
Maybe not 6, but the intelligent thing to do at this point is to run 3 scoring lines and have Nyquist on that third line. It's kind of easy to see that the Wings have many more NHL-ready skill guys than they do gritty guys.

But even 6 minutes would be better because it would be against NHL competition and attending NHL practices all the time. That's how you get better in a hurry.

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01-17-2013, 06:33 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by LastWordArmy View Post
What most people forget about "over ripe" players is that their contract ends up being cheaper. Mursak and Nyquist will be RFA next year and with barely any "NHL" experience and stats, they will not have massive deals, maybe 2-3 year deals at 2 or less million if not another two way deal. That is brilliant move by Holland because it will keep Wings competitive in the UFA market. Tatar will probably see a bit more time next year as his contract will expire after next year. Cleary is gone next year, by the time Bert and Samuellsson expire, you will have Tatar ready to make an impact.

I would look towards Filppula is a good example of this. He is a bargain and has been because of the way he has been brought up.

In this CAP era you cant just bring up the best players, you need to draw them out to make them cost less.
The flip side of your point is that the Wings don't benefit like most teams do in getting production from young guys on their ELC's. Sure, those guys may have great seasons on their ELC's that get them higher 2nd contracts, but their teams also get a really low cap hit for those ELC seasons. And it's not like all of the guys producing in the NHL on ELC's end up with ridiculous 2nd contracts. An example that comes to mind is Del Zotto with the Rangers- 2 of his 3 ELC seasons were very productive, he nailed down a top 4 spot last season, and they still signed him to a 2nd contract with a good cap hit of 2.55.

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01-17-2013, 06:33 PM
  #249
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But even 6 minutes would be better because it would be against NHL competition and attending NHL practices all the time. That's how you get better in a hurry.
That is the thing with both Nyquist and Tatar, is there really more they can learn at the AHL level? Smith made lots of turnovers, needed to get that special team time in and still had some things to smooth out in his game that could explain being sent down with other options.

However in the case these two forwards what more can they truly be expected to do. Tatar worked out his problems at the AHL level in terms of defense and getting more jam. Nyquist plays a complete game and completely outclasses the AHL at this point. They aren't learning a whole lot more there, in fact they are getting to an area where they could probably develop bad habits in my opinion.

I do think Tatar should ask Blashill and the Wings to let him play on the pk down in GR. Show another element to his game that makes him a better third line option to start. But what more can they do down there? I see the issues with some guys but these two players really have little to earn and the ice time while nice probably isn't as good as playing with superior talent and against better players.

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01-17-2013, 06:54 PM
  #250
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That is the thing with both Nyquist and Tatar, is there really more they can learn at the AHL level?

However in the case these two forwards what more can they truly be expected to do.
These are some questions I would really love answered by management.

The way both guys have played this year, I think they both have earned a spot on this team. Tell me one guy who has ever put up more points in his first 100 games with the Griffins than Nyquist? Not Filppula. Not Hudler.

To the argument that Holland is strategically doing the right thing by keeping them down, even though talent-wise they should clearly be on the Wings, is absolutely absurd. Tatar might leave for the KHL. And if I am Nyquist or Smith I am not I am not going to negotiate for less money just because you held me back, when clearly both players have been good enough to be regulars on the team for awhile.

You can't bury your young talented guys behind declining ufa veteran pick-ups forever, eventually there is going to be push back in some way, and if so I am fully on the player's side. This team has fought transition to a new era for far too long, and leaving guys in Grand Rapids is not the best thing for development. Nyquist should have already been a regular, same with Smith, Tatar should have more NHL games at this point. We are behind the curve, and with the contracts we have, it's not looking like anything is certain to change in the future.


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