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Old
12-03-2012, 09:30 AM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
I have zero expectations for Tuesday's owner/player meeting. Esp. with Jacobs attending.

I suspect he will look the players in the eye and tell them to "make my day". And hence blow the whole thing up.

Decertification is next. The season's gone. And maybe the next one too. (And so are any pensions, etc........ I wonder what that means for past and retired players?)

I'm totally jaded at this point so I will muse that the real reason for this meeting must be that jersey sales are hurting and it is the Christmas season.
Decertification doesn't automatically terminate pension obligations. If my memory is correct, pensions earned to that point are not affected, but the employer can cease contributing into the plan once decertification happens. (Although I also think that pension contributions stopped when the lockout started, but I'm not sure on that part.)

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12-03-2012, 09:36 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodhouse View Post
The six owners meeting with players in Tuesday's meeting are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afino View Post
Nothing going to happen with Jacobs. Nothing to see, please disperse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Even with Jacobs in the room, I'm hoping for some new and creative thinking from the owners and players to settle this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Still not letting in Dolan, who was widely credited for breaking the NBA stalemate, at least in part. Gary is a vindictive man. No Ed Snider, either.

With Jacobs in the room, I fear that some of the owners' rational points--both sides have them, believe it or not--may get lost in the disdain that many of the players have for the guy. Based on some reports in the Pittsburgh newspapers over the last week, it's Jacobs, not Bettman, that the players most take issue with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
I have zero expectations for Tuesday's owner/player meeting. Esp. with Jacobs attending.

I suspect he will look the players in the eye and tell them to "make my day". And hence blow the whole thing up.
When one adds this news into the mix as far as the Owner's contingency, it's even further reason to view the meetings as pointless:

Quote:
The owners that will take part in the meeting are Jeremy Jacobs of the Boston Bruins, Ronald Burkle of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Mark Chipman of the Winnipeg Jets, Jeffery Vinik of the Tampa Bay Lightning, Murray Edwards of the Calgary Flames and Larry Tanenbaum of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

The NHLPA requested that a staff member from each side be present for the meeting. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly will attend the meeting while the NHLPA has yet to identify which staff member they will have in the room.

Commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr will not be involved.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410815

I thought the point of the meeting, as it's being promoted to the fans and media, is to get "new blood" and a "fresh perspective" into the mix. Based on the reports today, I don't see how anything will be different by taking out Bettman yet keeping his echo, Daly, and two of his biggest backers in Jacobs and Edwards in the group. According to most of the accounts from the 3 TSN Insiders, those two owners are in the small group that is 100% behind Bettman and we all know how Daly and Bettman are joined at the hip.

With that dynamic, I expect to hear today that Steve Fehr will attend the meeting - which will only repeat the failed formula of past Daly-Fehr sessions.


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12-03-2012, 10:03 AM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Decertification doesn't automatically terminate pension obligations. If my memory is correct, pensions earned to that point are not affected, but the employer can cease contributing into the plan once decertification happens. (Although I also think that pension contributions stopped when the lockout started, but I'm not sure on that part.)
Glad to hear that Beech... I really didn't know but suspected that the NHLPA's pension funds were invested and served by a 3rd party financial concern versus the Association itself.

It would be wrong to have former players suffer on account of the mess both current players and management have made of things.

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12-03-2012, 10:06 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
When one adds this news into the mix as far as the Owner's contingency, it's even further reason to view the meetings as pointless:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410815

I thought the point of the meeting, as it's being promoted to the fans and media, is to get "new blood" and a "fresh perspective" into the mix. Based on the reports today, I don't see how anything will be different by taking out Bettman yet keeping his echo, Daly, and two of his biggest backers in Jacobs and Edwards in the group. According to most of the accounts from the 3 TSN Insiders, those two owners are in the small group that is 100% behind Bettman and we all know how Daly and Bettman are joined at the hip.

With that dynamic, I expect to hear today that Steve Fehr will attend the meeting - which will only repeat the failed formula of past Daly-Fehr sessions.

Stick them all out on an isolated island a la Survivor and last one standing dictates the terms.

I'm betting a player wins that one.

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12-03-2012, 10:48 AM
  #280
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According to Millsy, via Vogl, the players that will be in the room have yet to be decided.

https://twitter.com/BuffNewsVogl/sta...41149199351808

Quote:
Sabres' Ryan Miller says via text he will be in NYC during meetings but no final decision has been made as to which players will negotiate.

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12-03-2012, 11:23 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
According to Millsy, via Vogl, the players that will be in the room have yet to be decided.

https://twitter.com/BuffNewsVogl/sta...41149199351808
Speaking of Miller, is he waiting for Pegula?
Quote:
Allan Walsh ‏@walsha
Quote from Ryan Miller apropos today: "I'm waiting for the owners who love the game and want to play to say enough is enough."

Link: https://twitter.com/walsha/status/275632679611953152

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Old
12-03-2012, 04:40 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
According to Millsy, via Vogl, the players that will be in the room have yet to be decided.

https://twitter.com/BuffNewsVogl/sta...41149199351808
Per TSN reports, Miller won't be the only outspoken, high profile player in NYC: Crosby and Toews are there.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410857

With Jacobs and Daly slated to appear, I'd expect the NHLPA to put some of their more prominent names in the room as well. I wonder if Suter, Cammalleri and Schneider are in NY...

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12-04-2012, 07:37 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
Per TSN reports, Miller won't be the only outspoken, high profile player in NYC: Crosby and Toews are there.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410857

With Jacobs and Daly slated to appear, I'd expect the NHLPA to put some of their more prominent names in the room as well. I wonder if Suter, Cammalleri and Schneider are in NY...
More speculation on the players involved:
Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
Could be as many as 25 players in NYC. Likely 10 will participate, although league isn't concerned with # of players. Who makes the cut?

Link: https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...47654909947904
Quote:
Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch
The talk among players yesterday was Crosby, Toews, Doan, Parros and possibly Steve Ott would be among those in the room. Not confirmed.

Link: https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...48380780367872
Quote:
Matthew Barnaby ‏@MattBarnaby3636
@SunGarrioch steve ott will not be among those in the room.

Link: https://twitter.com/MattBarnaby3636/...50533464952833
Quote:
Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch
The NHLPA will not finalize its group until today so that was speculation among players. #NHLPA

Link: https://twitter.com/SunGarrioch/stat...48380780367872

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12-04-2012, 08:08 AM
  #284
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Ott was off getting engaged in Vegas over the weekend, while several players were in NYC preparing. I can't imagine he'll be in the room.

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Old
12-04-2012, 08:18 AM
  #285
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Still think the only upside to this meeting is on the owner's side. Can't really see the owners budging on anything, especially with JJ in there.

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12-04-2012, 12:38 PM
  #286
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The players present for this meeting:

Quote:
The 18 players present in New York today are:
•Craig Adams
•David Backes
•Michael Cammalleri
•Sidney Crosby
•B.J. Crombeen
•Mathieu Darche
•Shane Doan
•Ron Hainsey
•Shawn Horcoff
•Jamal Mayers
•Manny Malhotra
•Andy McDonald
•Ryan Miller
•George Parros
•Brad Richards
•Martin St. Louis
•Jonathan Toews
•Kevin Westgarth.
It was tweeted that every owner present has at least one player in the meeting...except for Jacobs.

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12-04-2012, 12:39 PM
  #287
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Six NHL owners and 18 players, including Sidney Crosby and Jonathan Toews, will sit down together today to continue labour talks in New York City beginning at about 2pm et.

The NHLPA confirmed the list of players who will be present, including Craig Adams, David Backes, Michael Cammalleri, Crosby, B.J. Crombeen, Mathieu Darche, Shane Doan, Ron Hainsey, Shawn Horcoff, Jamal Mayers, Manny Malhotra, Andy McDonald, Ryan Miller, George Parros, Brad Richards, Martin St. Louis, Toews and Kevin Westgarth.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410921

According to LeBrun, guys like Darche, Backes, Parros and Westgarth have been part of the negotations/meetings from the start - so the NHLPA wanted to make sure that any player representation didn't get a snow job from the Owners on things being different than how Fehr may have presented it to the union. LeBrun also pointed out the Penguins owner as having been widely-praised for his work in "making deals" (i.e. the new arena in Pittsburgh) and that Crosby's presence in conjunction with his owner may help lend a positive tenor to the meeting.

I'm anxious to hear Miller's reactions after the meeting, relative to his views going into it. He seemed eager to see if the posturing was going to continue and whether it's worth holding onto hope for the season. Given his quotes below about the "monopoly", I'm sure he'll be quick to comment afterwards if power-mongers like Jacobs end up dominating the discussions.

Quote:
“I don’t entirely agree with leaving the heads of negotiation out of this because they are paid to make a deal,” Miller wrote. “But if it gets more owners involved then so be it.”
Quote:
“A lot of guys want the opportunity,” Miller wrote. “I hope we all get a better feel of what each side truly needs. On our side anyone can talk to the media or attend meetings, so I am hopeful that having more owners join the conversation we can get somewhere and break up this monopoly 4-5 owners have had on deal making.

I am really disappointed that no moderate owners have stopped the madness. Hopefully they will after the board of governors convene.”
Quote:
“There has been a deal available for months,” Miller wrote. “We all expected things to fall into a negotiation after reaching 50/50 [with regard to splitting revenue] but it hasn’t. The owners want too much from us and we have to make a stand. We appreciate the chance to play in the NHL but we have to protect our players.”
Quote:
My only guess is Gary wants to limit general managers so he won’t have anymore loophole type surprises in this CBA. I understand that position to the extent you don’t want contracts to cripple a team, but they are really taking away team building as a skill. Skilled GMs will have to identify how to balance a budget instead of building a well-balanced winner.

“What I haven’t heard anyone talking about is the fact that under the NHL proposal the NHL becomes a two-tier salary league. The middle class is gone and that means shorter careers and in my opinion mediocre hockey.”
Quote:
“I think they are counting on people to have short memories,” Miller wrote. “Just like politicians who flip-flop on an issue, the owners believe the fans will return and be caught up in hockey …[and] everything forgiven or at least forgotten once pucks drop.”
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...GION/121209707

As for Daly attending on the NHL side, it seems Steve Fehr will on the NHLPA side:

Quote:
Under the arrangement reached Sunday, Bettman and Fehr will still be absent; NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr will now likely attend.
Quote:
Vanek added: “As long as Steve is in there it’s good. I think … for us it’s good. It gets Gary out of there, get some new owners involved. I don’t see anything wrong with it.”
http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sab...talks-rolling/

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12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
  #288
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What's sad is that I don't even hear people talking about the negotiations anymore in casual conversation. Even if they start this month, it'll feel like a half-assed season.

What a waste.

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12-04-2012, 01:35 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
When one adds this news into the mix as far as the Owner's contingency, it's even further reason to view the meetings as pointless:



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410815

I thought the point of the meeting, as it's being promoted to the fans and media, is to get "new blood" and a "fresh perspective" into the mix. Based on the reports today, I don't see how anything will be different by taking out Bettman yet keeping his echo, Daly, and two of his biggest backers in Jacobs and Edwards in the group. According to most of the accounts from the 3 TSN Insiders, those two owners are in the small group that is 100% behind Bettman and we all know how Daly and Bettman are joined at the hip.

With that dynamic, I expect to hear today that Steve Fehr will attend the meeting - which will only repeat the failed formula of past Daly-Fehr sessions.

You do realize that Daly is in there in response to the players' request to have staff present. A request that was a smart one from the players. It's my understanding that they are there in a consulting capacity and not leading the negotiations.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-04-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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12-04-2012, 01:38 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodhouse View Post
Speaking of Miller, is he waiting for Pegula?
I'm sure Miller and all of the players would love Pegula or anyone like him making the decisions for the owners. He's an owner who could care less if he makes money on the team and is willing to lose lots of it to try to build a winner. If he needs money he would just drill a well.

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Old
12-04-2012, 02:44 PM
  #291
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I still do not have a handle on what the NHLPA is offering but it seems to break down as follows:

--Each side to get 50% of defined hrr for period of cba
--On top of that the actual dollar level cannot decline-any loss of gross revenue comes out of owners share of the pie
--on top of the 50% the league will pay out $393 Million for player contracts over 4 years
--Players to have a new defined pension plan (no particulars set out as to how much this will be or its cost)
--nhl cannot walk away from arbitration awards
--nhl cannot buy out players not performing if player is making less than $3 million a year.
--teams making money must contribute $200 million from their share to help poorer teams continue to pay the union members they have signed
--term is 5 years then all bets are off again

No doubt Ryan Miller feels they are getting shafted with the greedy owners not grovelling at their feet in ecstatic thanks.

OK The last bit is sarcasm but I do not see this as helping the nhl owners out much IF the figures they are using in negotiations are correct--and they must be because Fehr and the NHLPA hawks would be alleging fraud, demanding their own auditors to go in etc....

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12-04-2012, 08:04 PM
  #292
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LeBrun:

Quote:
Told so far talks have been substantive but too early to tell which way it will go...
Quote:
also told that Pens owner Ron Burkle made his presence felt in the meeting so far today. I think the players are receptive to him...
Strang:

Quote:
General sense at the moment is one of cautious optimism. First time in quite awhile for that...
Quote:
Neither NHL/NHLPA has confirmed, but two sides expected to reconvene tonight

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12-04-2012, 08:39 PM
  #293
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Some of the tweets I've seen so far seem encouraging.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-04-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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12-04-2012, 09:58 PM
  #294
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If the Penguins help end this (seems like Burkle, Lemieux, and Crosby were discussing a solution even before this meeting), I promise to stop hating them....for a few months.

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12-04-2012, 10:21 PM
  #295
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Please bring hockey back

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12-04-2012, 10:26 PM
  #296
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Quote:
@aaronward-nhl
Hearing both sides discussed further means of 'giving'. Both are encouraged by the discussions so far
Being able to exchange ideas on further concessions or 'giving' and still feeling encouraged by talks.

Now that is definitely progress.

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12-04-2012, 10:55 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Being able to exchange ideas on further concessions or 'giving' and still feeling encouraged by talks.

Now that is definitely progress.
I know, right?

I'm pleasantly surprised this is going somewhere. I thought this would be another epic failure. Glad to be proven wrong.

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12-04-2012, 11:11 PM
  #298
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LeBrun:

Quote:
Steve Fehr and Bill Daly holding joint press conference although won't say much. Fehr called it maybe best day so far in this process
Quote:
Both sides will meeting again in morning, Daly said. With same group on each side
Quote:
Obviously fact Fehr and Daly are holding joint availability speaks to the traction generated today. But still could go either way..

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12-04-2012, 11:16 PM
  #299
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I know, right?

I'm pleasantly surprised this is going somewhere. I thought this would be another epic failure. Glad to be proven wrong.
I think it helps that players and owners that know each other are involved. It helps with the trust factor. For example Crosby can vouch for his owner if another player questions his motives and vice versa. It helps each side trust the other a bit more.


Last edited by joshjull: 12-04-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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12-04-2012, 11:34 PM
  #300
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This just in from Vogl:

Quote:
Sabres owner Terry Pegula, team President Ted Black and General Manager Darcy Regier will all attend NHL board of governors meeting today.
https://twitter.com/BuffNewsVogl/sta...97232116637696

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