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What if Philadelphia beat Montreal in 1976?

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Old
02-06-2005, 12:37 AM
  #26
Quiet Robert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Fair enough but me personally having watched the games in which Tretiak played, I consider him to be one of the greatest goalies ever and had he played in the NHL I believe that he would not be considered overrated by players like Clark and Espo because it was like a war back then between Soviets and Canada and players all hated each other. Thats the reason they consider Tretiak overrated.

I think you're bang on there. The war aspect definetly plays into it. Espo and Clark especially have often refered to the 72 series as a war etc... Didn't Espo also say the only time he would have killed someone is in 72? I also agree with the NHL aspect. If he did play in the NHL for a few years at the same level as the 4 series' I think there would be very little doubt about his status as top 5.

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02-06-2005, 08:42 AM
  #27
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Deep down, I've always thought that Tretiak was overrated. Not so much overrated but possibly he should be unrated. We judge our NA goalies by their play during and after a tough NHL season, not just tournament play. Call me ignorant for discounting the great Red Army teams, but I suspect that internal Soviet competition ensured their success. Maybe he ranks with the greatest of his generation, but I don't think there is a fair barometer to make the claim. The systems and the focus on tournament play, just make it impossible. You can say he played some great games, but you can also say that a mid 70 game where a Gilles Meloche held his team in the game against the Habs was great. IN comparing Dryden and Parent, wasn't the 1st of the Flyer cups the year that Dryden and Sam Pollock had their cold war ? I can't argue as to who was better. Parent seemed like he spent 2 years on the penalty kill and kept the Flyers toughness from being their Achilles' heel.. Dryden would keep his team in the games early until their talent took over. I saw Dryden every night, you saw Parent, so it stands to reason we see it differently. The one thing Parent and Dryden could do, and it is often discounted, is they could win. There were a lot of goalies who would be spectacular but might not thrive on a great team. Throw in Cheevers and Billy Smith. They could give up 3 goals and then re-focus and shut the door.

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02-06-2005, 11:02 AM
  #28
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It should be noted that Tretiak played most of his games against amateurs and college kids on the international level, and the only time he played professionals were when they'd have challenge matches against All-Star teams that just got thrown together and had no real experience playing together on lines. This obviously contributes to Tretiak's number and reputation.

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02-06-2005, 11:58 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by acr
It should be noted that Tretiak played most of his games against amateurs and college kids on the international level, and the only time he played professionals were when they'd have challenge matches against All-Star teams that just got thrown together and had no real experience playing together on lines. This obviously contributes to Tretiak's number and reputation.
It's exactly for these reasons that many people have a hard time putting him as one of the greatest of all time. Many people also point to the fact that the Soviet Red Army was all but guranteed victory under the Communist regime. So to point to 4 series' where he faced tough opposition does not justify him being among the greatest.

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02-06-2005, 01:24 PM
  #30
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All the games were close in the 76 finals and here's why:

-The Flyers were coming off tougher/longer series than the Habs, but this was their own fault of course.
- The Habs were being cautious in their style of play; no firewagon hockey.
- Lafleur was not at his best (the famous kidnapping threat against him and Dryden; his wife said he lost 12 pounds in a matter of days); still he had 2 game winners and was deadly with the score tied in the third period in Game 4.
-Macleish/Parent were hurt but Leach and Stephenson each made up for it and Dryden hurt his knee and had surgery a few days after the Cup was won; he missed the 76 Canada Cup.


I watched it back then and watched Game 4 recently; the Habs wouldnt have been beaten by the Flyers in a million years.

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02-06-2005, 01:52 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
-Macleish/Parent were hurt but Leach and Stephenson each made up for it and Dryden hurt his knee and had surgery a few days after the Cup was won; he missed the 76 Canada Cup.
How do Leach and Stephenson make up for no MacLeish and Parent ?

MacLeish was the offensive threat on the 2nd line.

The Flyers were built around the best line in hockey (Barber-Clarke-Leach), MacLeish a great 2nd line center, and Parent, the best goalie in the game.

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02-06-2005, 03:28 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
How do Leach and Stephenson make up for no MacLeish and Parent ?

MacLeish was the offensive threat on the 2nd line.

The Flyers were built around the best line in hockey (Barber-Clarke-Leach), MacLeish a great 2nd line center, and Parent, the best goalie in the game.

Leach was Smythe winner and Stephenson was great that playoffs. The best line in hockey was Lafleur line (Little M and Shutt) and Lemaire/Cournoyer on second line; Big 3 on D; Best goalie of the period was KD. I guess we agree to disagree !!

Flyers were awesome in 74,75 I grant that. So when Lafleur floated it over Watson and WS in game 4 to make it 4-3 it was sweet.

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02-06-2005, 11:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Leach was Smythe winner and Stephenson was great that playoffs. The best line in hockey was Lafleur line (Little M and Shutt) and Lemaire/Cournoyer on second line; Big 3 on D; Best goalie of the period was KD. I guess we agree to disagree !!
In 1975-76 the best line in hockey was most certainly Barber-Clarke-Leach.

The big edge that the Habs had was the big 3. The Flyers didn't have the defenseman to match up with them.

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02-07-2005, 05:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
In 1975-76 the best line in hockey was most certainly Barber-Clarke-Leach.

The big edge that the Habs had was the big 3. The Flyers didn't have the defenseman to match up with them.
Hardly 'most certainly'. They were pretty damn close. Combining playoffs and regular season, the Flyer line averaged 1.32 pts a game and the Habs line averaged 1.27. That's pretty damn close. The Flyers line also had more ice time because Bowman tended to roll four lines more than Shero, and the Habs had a quality offensive 2nd line to share the offensive load that the Flyers lacked.

The big edge the Habs had was forward depth, along with the big 3. The Habs second line, which included HOFers like Lemaire and Cournoyer, was clearly better than the Flyers 2nd line.

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02-07-2005, 05:43 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
The big edge the Habs had was forward depth, along with the big 3. The Habs second line, which included HOFers like Lemaire and Cournoyer, was clearly better than the Flyers 2nd line.
Especially without MacLeish, who while not a Hall of Famer, played like one for a stretch in the 70's, and was a great playoff scorer.

The Big 3 was where the Habs had the decided edge.

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02-07-2005, 06:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I said that Parent's period of greatness was short, but during that period, he was better than Dryden ever was. Dryden had the better career, but Parent's peak was higher.
Bernie Parent's one season peak was certainly higher, 1973-74. That was one of the finest seasons ever by a goalie. He followed that up with a very good 1974-75 season, but Ken Dryden was fully back for the 1975-76 season after being retired during the 1973-74 season. He was the best goalie in the NHL once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Why didn't you bring up the 1980 game vs. the Americans ???
Vladislav Tretiak played 19 min. 59 sec. of the first game of the medal round against Team USA. He gave up a goal to Buzz Schneider and literally a last second goal to Mark Johnson. The score was 2-2. Would the US have won if Tretiak had stayed in goal? It's hard to say, but the Soviets certainly would have had a better chance with Tretiak in net instead of Vladimir Myshkin. Viktor Tikhonov pulled a Joseph Stallin out of anger for the odd goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
.... or the final four games of the Summit Series, where his sv% was under .860 ... and he gave up a 2 goal lead in the 3rd period of the deciding game.
Tretiak was 20 years old in 1972. How many other 20 year old goalies could have performed as well as Tretiak did in that series. Tretiak also had a better save percentage at his young age than both Ken Dryden and Tony Esposito of Team Canada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Tretiak played on a a ridiculously dominat team
Would you say that the Soviets were a as dominant because they had many excellent players? If that is the case, it should be noted that Tretiak was named Soviet Player of the Year five times (1974, 1975, 1976, 1981 and 1983.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke thinks Tretiak is highly over rated.
Bobby Clarke is a real genius when it comes to goaltending. I have read an article (and I'm sorry that I don't recall the title or have a link) where Clarke says things about how he thinks the position of goalkeeper is not that important for a hockey team.


------------------------------------Epilogue------------------------------------

Vladislav Tretiak suffers from the same thing that Satchel Paige suffers from as a baseball pitcher. They both were not allowed to play in the major leagues for different reasons. Paige got a chance when he was 41, but that's no indication of how great he could have been in his prime.

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02-07-2005, 06:37 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Bernie Parent's one season peak was certainly higher, 1973-74. That was one of the finest seasons ever by a goalie. He followed that up with a very good 1974-75 season, but Ken Dryden was fully back for the 1975-76 season after being retired during the 1973-74 season. He was the best goalie in the NHL once again.
Parent was a 1st team all-star in 1975 .. and played just 11 games in 1976 due to injury. Parent's back-to-back seasons were better than Dryden's peak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Vladislav Tretiak played 19 min. 59 sec. of the first game of the medal round against Team USA. He gave up a goal to Buzz Schneider and literally a last second goal to Mark Johnson. The score was 2-2. Would the US have won if Tretiak had stayed in goal? It's hard to say, but the Soviets certainly would have had a better chance with Tretiak in net instead of Vladimir Myshkin. Viktor Tikhonov pulled a Joseph Stallin out of anger for the odd goal.
I'd love to hear your reasoning why the Soviets would have had a better chance with Tretiak in net:

Tretiak played one period and gave up two brutal goals.

Myshkin played two period, and gave up two goals. One he had no chance on, the game winner wasn't a great goal, but was a better goal than either of the two that Tretiak gave up. Myshkin had experience and was the goalie that shut-otu the NHLers in game 3 of the Cahallenge Series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Tretiak was 20 years old in 1972. How many other 20 year old goalies could have performed as well as Tretiak did in that series. Tretiak also had a better save percentage at his young age than both Ken Dryden and Tony Esposito of Team Canada.
Why does the 20 years of age matter. This is where the Tretiak "legend" was born. He played excellent during the 4 games in Canada ... and then was not good at all duing the games in Moscow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Bobby Clarke is a real genius when it comes to goaltending. I have read an article (and I'm sorry that I don't recall the title or have a link) where Clarke says things about how he thinks the position of goalkeeper is not that important for a hockey team.
I gave you the name and where you could find the article, it is not published on-line. It's in "The Hockey News" latest magazine ... and it's not just one comment from Clarke.

https://secure.indas.on.ca/care/hnc/...idMenuItem=122
top magazine

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Vladislav Tretiak suffers from the same thing that Satchel Paige suffers from as a baseball pitcher. They both were not allowed to play in the major leagues for different reasons. Paige got a chance when he was 41, but that's no indication of how great he could have been in his prime.
Tretiak was a good goalie, but those that say he's a top 5 goalie of all-time, on a sample of 10-15 games vs. top flight compeition are making leaps that IMO are mainly founded upon 5 highly televised and remembered games:

Games 1-4 of the Summit Series & the game against the Habs on New Year's Eve (the so-called greatest game ever, because it involved the Habs).

Tretiak, or any goalie that had been playing for the Sviets back then would have been extremely difficult to judge, becuase for the most part they were playing against inferior competition. Much easier to jusge a skater in those cicumstances than a goalie.


Last edited by John Flyers Fan: 02-07-2005 at 06:51 PM.
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Old
02-07-2005, 07:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Games 1-4 of the Summit Series & the game against the Habs on New Year's Eve (the so-called greatest game ever, because it involved the Habs).

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02-08-2005, 04:03 PM
  #39
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[QUOTE=John Flyers Fan]






[url]https://secure.indas.on.ca/care/hnc/bo
Games 1-4 of the Summit Series & the game against the Habs on New Year's Eve (the so-called greatest game ever, because it involved the Habs).

I know you think I'm too old to read the small print. You're not fooling me John. That was a great game and was significant because it was a sort of 'coming out' game for a great team, but elevating a game like that is just media needing something to say.

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02-08-2005, 08:23 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'd love to hear your reasoning why the Soviets would have had a better chance with Tretiak in net
Viktor Tikhonov, Head Coach of the Soviet National Team at Lake Placid, said, "The biggest mistake of my career was replacing Tretiak with Myshkin" Coffey, Wayne. The Boys of Winter: The Untold Story of a Coach, a Dream, and the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team. New York: Crown, 2005. 91.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I gave you the name and where you could find the article, it is not published on-line. It's in "The Hockey News" latest magazine ... and it's not just one comment from Clarke.
I was refering to an article that I had read online in the summer/fall of 2003. In the article, Bobby Clarke discussed how he didn't think the position of goaltender matters too much for a team. I thik it was a little after he signed Jeff Hackett to be his #1 goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Why does the 20 years of age matter. This is where the Tretiak "legend" was born. He played excellent during the 4 games in Canada ... and then was not good at all duing the games in Moscow.
Why would Tretiak being 20 years old matter? Are you kidding me John. Most 20 year old are playing in College or the AHL, not agaist a team of some of best hockey players in the world.

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02-08-2005, 08:30 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
I was refering to an article that I had read online in the summer/fall of 2003. In the article, Bobby Clarke discussed how he didn't think the position of goaltender matters too much for a team. I thik it was a little after he signed Jeff Hackett to be his #1 goalie.
That doesn't sound right since he credits Parent as the main reason they won their Cups.

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02-08-2005, 08:41 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Viktor Tikhonov, Head Coach of the Soviet National Team at Lake Placid, said, "The biggest mistake of my career was replacing Tretiak with Myshkin" Coffey, Wayne. The Boys of Winter: The Untold Story of a Coach, a Dream, and the 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team. New York: Crown, 2005. 91.
He can say whatever he want, but the bottom line is for the Soviets to win Tretiak would had to pitch a shutout the rest of the way. Was it possible ? Sure, anything is possible, but Tretiak had given up two brutal goals in the first period and gave no indication that he was going to shut-out the US the rest of the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
I was refering to an article that I had read online in the summer/fall of 2003. In the article, Bobby Clarke discussed how he didn't think the position of goaltender matters too much for a team. I thik it was a little after he signed Jeff Hackett to be his #1 goalie.
What he said at the time, was that other than Brodeur, who was obviously unavailable, there were no other stand-out goalies in the NHL that clearly standout from the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Why would Tretiak being 20 years old matter? Are you kidding me John. Most 20 year old are playing in College or the AHL, not agaist a team of some of best hockey players in the world.
If Tretiak's "legend of greatness" hadn't happened in that series, tan it would be fair. Problem is most point to that series and consider that one of his defining moments.


Last edited by John Flyers Fan: 02-08-2005 at 08:47 PM.
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02-08-2005, 08:47 PM
  #43
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This has been a very entertaining read for someone who was a reeling Bruins fan at the time of this '76 final. But the thing I can't forget is, the "what if" actually happened the year before when the Canadiens were playing wide-open hockey and losing to the Sabres, who then got beaten up by Philadelphia. Scotty Bowman made his team a little bigger, a little stronger, and took quite a chunk off of that GAA with unrelenting strong defensive play, similar to what he did in Detroit after losing to the Devils in '95. This was a work in progress, and while everyone seems to acknowledge that the progress continued into the late 70's, it was already progress in '76. That said, the progress was bound to continue no matter what happened in '76 vs. Flyers.

I'm going to go have a Tasty Cake now.

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02-08-2005, 08:56 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. As for Tretiak, he was NEVER better than Parent was at the time. IMO Tretiak is the single most overrated player in the history of hockey.

Jeeze, you gotta be kidding. Tretiak was one of the greatest and dominant goalie's of all time. We won't even mention the fact that most modern Quebec goalies (and by extension a lot of NHL goalies) have been influenced by his style. And yes he was better than Parent. By a country mile. He was better than any Canadian goalie of that era. An era that had produced Esposito, Vachon, Dryden, Cheevers, Parent, Smyth, Fuher. None of these goalies could match Tretiak.

If you remember it was Fred Shiro's tactics of spreading out all five skaters across the Philly blue line and Philly's strong physical play that destroyed the Soviet team.

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02-08-2005, 09:01 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by acr
The Habs would've won anyway...they always win...they have Satan on their side...</Disgruntled Bruin Fan>

So were the #$%^&% has Satan been the last 25 years?

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02-08-2005, 09:04 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice
Jeeze, you gotta be kidding. Tretiak was one of the greatest and dominant goalie's of all time. We won't even mention the fact that most modern Quebec goalies (and by extension a lot of NHL goalies) have been influenced by his style. And yes he was better than Parent. By a country mile. He was better than any Canadian goalie of that era. An era that had produced Esposito, Vachon, Dryden, Cheevers, Parent, Smyth, Fuhr. None of these goalies could match Tretiak.
Where is the proof that Tretiak was so great, and so dominant ??? A bunch of games against US & Canadian kids ?? ... vastly inferior Swedes and Finns ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice
If you remember it was Fred Shiro's tactics of spreading out all five skaters across the Philly blue line and Philly's strong physical play that destroyed the Soviet team.
I never blamed Tretiak for losing the game against the Flyers. That game was total domination by the Flyers.

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02-08-2005, 09:28 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Where is the proof that Tretiak was so great, and so dominant ??? A bunch of games against US & Canadian kids ?? ... vastly inferior Swedes and Finns ???
John, I think you may have grabbed the stick by the wrong end. It wasn't Tretiak that was overrated but those Soviet teams. I think offensively they could match most Canada Cup/ Summit teams but defensively they left much to be desired and in every Canada Cup and Summit Series it was Tretiak that kept them in the game.

You mention the gold medal loss against the USA. If that's your only knock against Tretiak then what about Espo and Dryden that basically played medicore in the Summit Series? Will you hold that against them and drag them down to medicore goaltenders. Even Tretiak was human.

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02-08-2005, 09:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice
John, I think you may have grabbed the stick by the wrong end. It wasn't Tretiak that was overrated but those Soviet teams. I think offensively they could match most Canada Cup/ Summit teams but defensively they left much to be desired and in every Canada Cup and Summit Series it was Tretiak that kept them in the game.

You mention the gold medal loss against the USA. If that's your only knock against Tretiak then what about Espo and Dryden that basically played medicore in the Summit Series? Will you hold that against them and drag them down to medicore goaltenders. Even Tretiak was human.
The thing that John is saying is that it is way too difficult to judge Tretiak as a goaltender because he didn't play many games against elite competition. The games that he did play against elite competition, he had his ups and his downs.

As for Dryden and Espo, they had the chance to prove themselves against elite competition in the NHL year after year. We know how they played in big games and we know that both were great goaltenders. Tretiak didn't have this opportunity, who knows how he would have fared.

But I can say that from watching Bernie Parent in those two seasons, he was one of the best goalies of all time and got even better as the stage got bigger. He's easily in my top 10 goalies of all time.

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02-08-2005, 10:03 PM
  #49
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Soviet Union At Philadelphia Flyers, January 6, 1983
USSR 5
PHILA 1

Boxscore

17,147 fans watch Vladislav Tretiak make 32 saves and earns the win in his last ever appearance against an NHL club. Pelle Lindbergh only stopped 20 of 25 shots while earning the loss.


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02-09-2005, 08:49 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy

01/06/83, The Spectrum, Philadelphia, PA
USSR 5
PHILA 1


17,147 fans watch Vladislav Tretiak make 32 saves and earns the win in his last ever appearance against an NHL club. Pelle Lindbergh only stopped 20 of 25 shots while earning the loss.
I remember that game well. Lindbergh got hurt (wrist/hand) early in that game, he continued playing, and then he was lost to the team for more tha a month. He was never the same that year. His injury killed the Flyers season.

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