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Top 100 greatest seasons : Expansion onward

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Old
11-01-2012, 07:52 PM
  #26
livewell68
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Joe Juneau was 18th in scoring with 102 points in 1992-93. His linemate, Adam Oates was 3rd in scoring with 142 points.

I don't see a case for Juneau having a top 300 season since expansion, let alone top 100.
Fair enough but for what it's worth, Joe Juneau still ends up being one of a select few NHL players to ever put 100 Pts in their rookie season. For that reason alone I would rank Joe Juneau in the top 100.

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11-01-2012, 07:53 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Fair enough but for what it's worth, Joe Juneau still ends up being one of a select few NHL players to ever put 100 Pts in their rookie season. For that reason alone I would rank Joe Juneau in the top 100.
But how many NHL players finished higher than 18th in scoring in their rookie seasons?

And that's not even getting into the Adam Oates factor.

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11-01-2012, 08:37 PM
  #28
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Yes if we are to look at the context of their seasons and their historical significance.

More and more are goalies putting up great statistics. Sure Lundqvist and Quick had great seasons but were they that ahead of the competition compared to Esposito and Parent at the time?
They for sure are not that far ahead of the competition I agree but the competition itself is far better.

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:35 PM
  #29
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Pronger 2000 and Ovechkin 2008 should be in the top 15.

Hextall 1987 should be one of the top 3 non Hasek goalie seasons

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11-01-2012, 10:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Pronger 2000 and Ovechkin 2008 should be in the top 15.
Top 15 for their respective positions, possibly.

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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Hextall 1987 should be one of the top 3 non Hasek goalie seasons
Roy's and Parent's peak years alone would keep Hextall some distance from the top 3.

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11-01-2012, 10:59 PM
  #31
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Nice to see that most people are talking about how much OP screwed up rather than adding to the thread by doing their own.
Cool idea, OP.
I'd personally rank Stamkos' recent 60 goal season a tad bit higher, though

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11-02-2012, 01:11 AM
  #32
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Top 15 for their respective positions, possibly.
No top 15 overall. Brett Hull 91 should be top 15 overall also.

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Roy's and Parent's peak years alone would keep Hextall some distance from the top 3.
No Roy season is better than Hextall in 87.

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11-02-2012, 01:15 AM
  #33
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I think the way to start this would be to rank the best seasons of Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux and then slot in other players accordingly. This is a quick rough ranking of the all-time great seasons of those three. I'm including everything - regular season, playoffs, and Canada Cups where applicable.

1. Bobby Orr 1969-70
2. Wayne Gretzky 83-84
3. Wayne Gretzky 86-87
4. Wayne Gretzky 84-85
5. Bobby Orr 1971-72
6. Bobby Orr 1974-75
7. Wayne Gretzky 81-82
8. Wayne Gretzky 85-86
9. Mario Lemieux 88-89
10. Bobby Orr 1973-74
11. Bobby Orr 1970-71
12. Wayne Gretzky 82-83
13. Bobby Orr 1972-73
14. Mario Lemieux 92-93
15. Wayne Gretzky 87-88
16. Mario Lemieux 91-92
17. Wayne Gretzky 88-89
18. Mario Lemieux 95-96
19. Mario Lemieux 87-88
20. Wayne Gretzky 80-81
21. Wayne Gretzky 90-91
22. Wayne Gretzky 89-90
23. Mario Lemieux 96-97
Great choices. Choosing from the best Gretzky season is like choosing between the top 10 supermodels in the world. Between the calendar year of 1987 and 1988, he won 2 Stanley Cups and a Canada Cup, including a Hart Trophy, a Conn Smythe and was named the Canada Cup MVP. That's 3 Championships within a 365 day period. It's tough to choose which season was actually better. Those two seasons should really be put together somehow.

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11-02-2012, 01:20 AM
  #34
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If we're counting playoffs, Bernie Parent would have my #1 season for goaltender in 73/74: 1st team AS, 2nd in Hart voting to Bobby Orr, Cup and Conn Smythe

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11-02-2012, 04:46 AM
  #35
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I think everybody needs to be aware that if we do count both regular season and playoffs for each year, Lemieux is going to be undervalued for his actual playing level almost each year. The Pens won the cup in two seasons in which Lemieux had significant injury problems, he did'nt really get to play on a true dynasty or even really a Championship team by doing our rankings this was. Just saying so that some visitor to this thread dont get a picture of Orrs and Gretzkys PEAKS being clearly better than Marios.
Maybe an idea could be that we rank regular seasons and playoffs separately. That way a great regular season or playoffs(Claudes in my avatar for example) wont simply just slide through the rankings as if they were'nt as great as they truly were. In a team sport it is a major risk to rank both regular seasons and playoffs together since the player ranked number one for example might have not had the best of all time in either that particular year.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 11-02-2012 at 04:57 AM.
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11-02-2012, 09:36 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I think everybody needs to be aware that if we do count both regular season and playoffs for each year, Lemieux is going to be undervalued for his actual playing level almost each year. The Pens won the cup in two seasons in which Lemieux had significant injury problems, he did'nt really get to play on a true dynasty or even really a Championship team by doing our rankings this was. Just saying so that some visitor to this thread dont get a picture of Orrs and Gretzkys PEAKS being clearly better than Marios.
Maybe an idea could be that we rank regular seasons and playoffs separately. That way a great regular season or playoffs(Claudes in my avatar for example) wont simply just slide through the rankings as if they were'nt as great as they truly were. In a team sport it is a major risk to rank both regular seasons and playoffs together since the player ranked number one for example might have not had the best of all time in either that particular year.
I wasn't really thinking of ranking them together, more that playoffs would be a tie-breaker between close seasons. Just to use Gretzky as an obvious example - most would rank his 208 pt season as probably the worst of his 200+ years (the 205 season he had the 51 game pt scoring streak and set records for highest ppg and gpg averages). However, factoring in the playoffs and his 47 post season points suddenly makes that season seem quite a bit better. I would rather have 208 pts + a stanely cup + a con smythe (to go along with art ross and hart) than some of his other season that were better just during the regular season.

This is also one reason I don't consider Lemieux's 199 pt season to be his best - while he certainly scored a lot of points, he didn't really accomplish anything significant. I'd rate his comeback from cancer year higher (and I usually don't like giving players credit for lost games, but I think this is the kind of list where missing a bunch of games from cancer then coming back and winning the art ross should rate highly).

Obviously just a list of who scored the most points is going to be pretty straight forward and dull - and I think the OP realized this when he made his list. I think a brief explanation of why each year was selected would go a long ways towards helping too. Then we wouldn't have a bunch of people going "WTF is up with #50 there?" or whatever. At least there would be something like "1st rookie to score over 100 pts" or something beside it.

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11-02-2012, 11:01 AM
  #37
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Okay here’s my stab at the top ten seasons since 1945, including playoffs, with no repeats by players. I’m not at all confident of this ordering:

1) Bobby Orr, 1969-70: Obvious enough. Won the Hart, Art Ross, Norris, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup. It's not just that a defenseman won the scoring title. He won the scoring title by a 20% margin over his teammate Phil Esposito and a 38% margin over Stan Mikita. Just a ridiculous season.

2) Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84: It’s hard to choose a single Gretzky season, but this is my pick. There was the 51-game streak to start the season, the fact that he was on pace to score 221 points had he not missed six games to injury, the fact that he scored 100 goals total. Yeah, Messier won the Conn Smythe but no one would’ve batted an eye if they’d given it to Gretzky.

3) Jean Beliveau, 1955-56: This was Beliveau making the Canadiens his team and kicking off the late ‘50s dynasty. Won the goal-scoring and points titles by 23% and 11% over a prime Gordie Howe. Then led the playoffs in scoring en route to a Cup with 12 goals in 10 games—a postwar record that would stand for the entire Original 6 era.

4) Dominik Hasek, 1997-98: The Hart, the Vezina, the save percentage numbers… but maybe the most impressive part was that he took a team whose leading scorer was Matthew Barnaby to within two games of the Stanley Cup finals. I could also go with his 1998-99 season.

5) Bernie Parent 1973-74: First team all-star, Vezina, Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe. Placed second to Phil Esposito in Hart voting. He had a much better team in front of him than Hasek did, but this kicked off arguably the greatest two-year run by any goalie ever.

6) Gordie Howe, 1951-52: Howe gets hurt a bit on this list by the fact that his greatest regular seasons don’t really line up with his greatest playoff runs. So I’ll take this season, where he won the scoring title by a 32% margin over the next non-teammate competitor (Elmer Lach), won the Hart, and the Cup. He was good in the playoffs though not a standout the way Sawchuk was.

7) Mario Lemieux, 1988-89: He didn’t win the Hart or Pearson, but to me this is the most dominant of Lemieux's seasons. Unlike on that stacked 1992-93 team, Lemieux was nearly a one-person offensive force. 199 points with Bob Errey and Rob Brown as his linemates. And he was scoring at a goal-per-game pace in the playoffs until Mark Howe and Kjell Samuelsson finally figured out how to shut him down. I could see a case for ranking this season higher.

8) Ray Bourque, 1989-90: Bourque should have won the Hart this year—and probably would have had a bunch of voters in Edmonton not left him off the ballot entirely (at least that's the rumor). The best all-around season by a defenseman since Orr, in my opinion, and he then carried an under-powered Boston team all the way to the Cup finals before getting overwhelmed by Edmonton.

9) Bobby Hull, 1965-66: Hull also gets hurt by the fact that his best regular seasons and best playoffs don’t line up, but this one’s too good to ignore. Scored 69% more goals (!) than his next closest competitor and set a new NHL scoring record.

10) Actually… I’m not sure about number ten. I could go with Bobby Clarke in 1974-75 for his defensive play and Hart trophy. Denis Potvin’s 1975-76 season was amazing—leading his team in scoring, Norris, lead the playoffs in assists. Chris Pronger’s 1999-00 season was great. Lafleur and Jagr obviously peaked extremely high. Malkin's 2008-09 season is up there. Richard's 1946-47 season. Sakic's 2001 season. Blah. Too difficult.

Fire away. I'm starting after 1945 because frankly I have no idea how to rate players like Shore, Morenz, etc.


Last edited by Dissonance: 11-02-2012 at 04:40 PM.
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11-02-2012, 12:06 PM
  #38
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I think it'd be a good rule to enforce "no repeats by players" to keep the list interesting.

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11-02-2012, 07:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
No top 15 overall. Brett Hull 91 should be top 15 overall also.
There isn't much need to go through this. The best seasons from Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and Hasek alone probably make up the top 15, and if not you can add the best from Lafleur, Bobby Hull, Clarke or Jagr. Pronger and Brett Hull have no chance at the top 15, and Ovechkin's case is quite weak.

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No Roy season is better than Hextall in 87.
Patrick Roy in 1989, for one example.

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11-02-2012, 07:10 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Okay here’s my stab at the top ten seasons since 1945, including playoffs, with no repeats by players. I’m not at all confident of this ordering:

1) Bobby Orr, 1969-70: Obvious enough. Won the Hart, Art Ross, Norris, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup. It's not just that a defenseman won the scoring title. He won the scoring title by a 20% margin over his teammate Phil Esposito and a 38% margin over Stan Mikita. Just a ridiculous season.

2) Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84: It’s hard to choose a single Gretzky season, but this is my pick. There was the 51-game streak to start the season, the fact that he was on pace to score 221 points had he not missed six games to injury, the fact that he scored 100 goals total. Yeah, Messier won the Conn Smythe but no one would’ve batted an eye if they’d given it to Gretzky.

3) Jean Beliveau, 1955-56: This was Beliveau making the Canadiens his team and kicking off the late ‘50s dynasty. Won the goal-scoring and points titles by 23% and 11% over a prime Gordie Howe. Then led the playoffs in scoring en route to a Cup with 12 goals in 10 games—a postwar record that would stand for the entire Original 6 era.

4) Dominik Hasek, 1997-98: The Hart, the Vezina, the save percentage numbers… but maybe the most impressive part was that he took a team whose leading scorer was Matthew Barnaby to within two games of the Stanley Cup finals. I could also go with his 1998-99 season.

5) Bernie Parent 1973-74: First team all-star, Vezina, Stanley Cup, Conn Smythe. Placed second to Phil Esposito in Hart voting. He had a much better team in front of him than Hasek did, but this kicked off arguably the greatest two-year run by any goalie ever.

6) Gordie Howe, 1951-52: Howe gets hurt a bit on this list by the fact that his greatest regular seasons don’t really line up with his greatest playoff runs. So I’ll take this season, where he won the scoring title by a 32% margin over the next non-teammate competitor (Elmer Lach), won the Hart, and the Cup. He was good in the playoffs though not a standout the way Sawchuk was.

7) Mario Lemieux, 1988-89: He didn’t win the Hart or Pearson, but to me this is the most dominant of Lemieux's seasons. Unlike on that stacked 1992-93 team, Lemieux was nearly a one-person offensive force. 199 points with Bob Errey and Rob Brown as his linemates. And he was scoring at a goal-per-game pace in the playoffs until Mark Howe and Kjell Samuelsson finally figured out how to shut him down. I could see a case for ranking this season higher.

8) Ray Bourque, 1989-90: Bourque should have won the Hart this year—and probably would have had a bunch of voters in Edmonton not left him off the ballot entirely (at least that's the rumor). The best all-around season by a defenseman since Orr, in my opinion, and he then carried an under-powered Boston team all the way to the Cup finals before getting overwhelmed by Edmonton.

9) Bobby Hull, 1965-66: Hull also gets hurt by the fact that his best regular seasons and best playoffs don’t line up, but this one’s too good to ignore. Scored 69% more goals (!) than his next closest competitor and set a new NHL scoring record.

10) Actually… I’m not sure about number ten. I could go with Bobby Clarke in 1974-75 for his defensive play and Hart trophy. Denis Potvin’s 1975-76 season was amazing—leading his team in scoring, Norris, lead the playoffs in assists. Chris Pronger’s 1999-00 season was great. Lafleur and Jagr obviously peaked extremely high. Malkin's 2008-09 season is up there. Richard's 1946-47 season. Sakic's 2001 season. Blah. Too difficult.

Fire away. I'm starting after 1945 because frankly I have no idea how to rate players like Shore, Morenz, etc.
I think Jagr's 1999-00 season is worth mentioning then.

He misses 19 games in the regular season and still scores 96 Pts (125 Pts pace over 82 games), wins the Art Ross, Pearson and comes 1 single vote away from winning his second straight Hart. In the playoffs he finishes with 16 Pts in just 11 games and still finishes in the top 7 in points in playoff scoring despite only playing in 2 rounds. He led the entire playoffs with PPG.

I think the 1998-99 and 1999-00 seasons are Jagr's absolute peak. He was a true beast back then.

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Old
11-02-2012, 07:11 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
No Roy season is better than Hextall in 87.
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Patrick Roy in 1989, for one example.
I'm not exactly sure where Hextall's 87 full season stacks up with the best of Roy.. but I'd say that one season does indeed stack up with the best of Roy.

Hextall was out of this world good as a rookie.

The difference is Roy was like that several times.

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