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What would be the harm in moving Lupul away from Kessel?

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:40 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Please provide any sort of evidence that the Leafs will be better with Kessel and Lupul apart. If you do that, then so be it, but I won't hold my breath.
That's too easy:

2010-2011 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 28 games.

Toronto placed 10th in the East

2011-2012 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 66 games

Toronto placed 13th in the East

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:45 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Please provide any sort of evidence that the Leafs will be better with Kessel and Lupul apart. If you do that, then so be it, but I won't hold my breath.
I could ask you to provide evidence that Kessel plays best with Lupul over a player like JVR. The simple fact is we haven't seen Kessel with JVR yet. We can't definetively say yet that we MUST keep Kessel and Lupul together. For all we know, JVRs boardwork and defensive play will turn Kessel into a 100 point player.

What if we got a player like J Neal, Kovi or Eberle. The argument you have been presenting is that the new player we get should automatically not play with Kessel because Kessel and Lupul share chemistry. I agree, they do share chemistry. But someone can have BETTER chemistry and I'm always wanting to improve my team and would be willing to try another player out to see.

As it currently stands, Lupul and Kessel I think should play together. But I haven't seen Kessel play with someone like JVR yet so I'm not setting Kessel + Lupul playing together in stone.

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:45 AM
  #28
The Podium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Would you prefer a line that scores 90 goals but gives up 100, or a line that only scores 75 but only gives up 65?

For a 26th place team, there should be no line combinations written in stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Thank you for posting this.

The defensive responsibility of a line should be on the shoulders of the center. Switch out Lupul would solve less then slotting McClement between them. It's not like JVR is great defensively, or MacAthur. By your rationalization, the only conceivable choice would be to switch for Kulemin...

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Old
11-01-2012, 10:51 AM
  #29
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Who replaces Lupul?

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11-01-2012, 11:10 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
The defensive responsibility of a line should be on the shoulders of the center.
Said Ron Wilson before every game

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11-01-2012, 11:12 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
Who replaces Lupul?
some HFboarders are suggesting:

JVR Kadri Kessel
Lupul Grabo Kuli

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Old
11-01-2012, 11:52 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
The defensive responsibility of a line should be on the shoulders of the center. Switch out Lupul would solve less then slotting McClement between them. It's not like JVR is great defensively, or MacAthur. By your rationalization, the only conceivable choice would be to switch for Kulemin...
Fine, slot McClement between them then.

I really am not a fan of the labels used here at HF for every position. (#1 this, #3 that, etc.)

Find whatever line combinations you can that allows the team to give up less goals than they score. If that means Kessel & Lupul together, then great. If it means splitting them up...no problem.

But last year, the line combinations (in totality) resulted in many more GA than GF, so, IMO, there should be no sacred cows, and any and all combinations should be experimented with.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
That's too easy:

2010-2011 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 28 games.

Toronto placed 10th in the East

2011-2012 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 66 games

Toronto placed 13th in the East
Are you serious? That's your proof?

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I could ask you to provide evidence that Kessel plays best with Lupul over a player like JVR. The simple fact is we haven't seen Kessel with JVR yet. We can't definetively say yet that we MUST keep Kessel and Lupul together. For all we know, JVRs boardwork and defensive play will turn Kessel into a 100 point player.

What if we got a player like J Neal, Kovi or Eberle. The argument you have been presenting is that the new player we get should automatically not play with Kessel because Kessel and Lupul share chemistry. I agree, they do share chemistry. But someone can have BETTER chemistry and I'm always wanting to improve my team and would be willing to try another player out to see.

As it currently stands, Lupul and Kessel I think should play together. But I haven't seen Kessel play with someone like JVR yet so I'm not setting Kessel + Lupul playing together in stone.

Lets put this another way then.

With all the different problems on this team, you think Carlyle should be concentrating on breaking up a productive line instead of say:

Finding a better center to play between them
Fixing the goals against
Getting the 2nd line back on track
Getting more production out of the 3rd line
Improving the teams breakout
Improving the teams PK

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
Lets put this another way then.

With all the different problems on this team, you think Carlyle should be concentrating on breaking up a productive line instead of say:

Finding a better center to play between them
Fixing the goals against
Getting the 2nd line back on track
Getting more production out of the 3rd line
Improving the teams breakout
Improving the teams PK
Everyone keeps on focusing on that in my opinion. What I'm trying to say is we have JVR who hasn't played with anyone yet. We have Frattin who is starting to find himself in the NHL and Kadri who is still trying to make it in. We also have Connolly who may refind his game under Carlyle. I'm all for keeping Lupul and Kessel together if it is the best. But people seem to want to 100% keep them together without giving anyone else a chance. What if JVR + Kessel is better than Lupul + Kessel? People don't even want to try JVR + Kessel because Lupul + Kessel did so well and they don't want to break it up. I'm suggesting try JVR/Frattin/Kadri with Bozak/Grabo/Connolly in the middle with Kessel. We may just find something that is BETTER than what we had last year which was already really good.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:27 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
That's too easy:

2010-2011 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 28 games.

Toronto placed 10th in the East

2011-2012 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 66 games

Toronto placed 13th in the East
Really, thats what you are going with.

Well I guess if that is what you call proof then thats good for you. The rest of us will take them lighting up the league as ours.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
I could ask you to provide evidence that Kessel plays best with Lupul over a player like JVR. The simple fact is we haven't seen Kessel with JVR yet. We can't definetively say yet that we MUST keep Kessel and Lupul together. For all we know, JVRs boardwork and defensive play will turn Kessel into a 100 point player.

What if we got a player like J Neal, Kovi or Eberle. The argument you have been presenting is that the new player we get should automatically not play with Kessel because Kessel and Lupul share chemistry. I agree, they do share chemistry. But someone can have BETTER chemistry and I'm always wanting to improve my team and would be willing to try another player out to see.

As it currently stands, Lupul and Kessel I think should play together. But I haven't seen Kessel play with someone like JVR yet so I'm not setting Kessel + Lupul playing together in stone.
Nothing is in stone, but I would rather a go with a for sure thing in a shortened season where you have very little room for error.

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:40 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Nothing is in stone, but I would rather a go with a for sure thing in a shortened season where you have very little room for error.
Fair enough.

Personally I never had that high of hopes for this season anyways, I got my eyes set on 2013-2014. I would rather have a shortened season used as a long experiment and kind of make it like an extended preseason

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Old
11-01-2012, 12:50 PM
  #39
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Lupul scored 1 more goal ateven strength then was scored against him. This doesnt include the countless PP points he and kessel produced. I think its safe to say hes a plus player for Toronto.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:04 PM
  #40
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See it depends...

On one hand, Kessel and Lupul have played fantastic together, but they are defensive liabilities. Bozak in my mind is not a good enough defensive player to make the gap. Moreover, I am not convinced that it is merely lupul himself, but rather having an actual higher end talent to play with.

So ultimately I am not tied to

Lupul Bozak Kessel.

IF JVR can play center properly and he has the requisite playmaking acumen, then I would pick that as my first line. All 3 have vision, JVR brings the size etc.

Ultimately I would want to pair JVR with Kessel. If not as a center than maybe

JVR Kadri Kessel, would be my ideal. Reims takes up space and gets puck, and kadri kessel work magic with the puck.

I personally think that
Lupul Grabo Kule would work well, and balance lupuls defensive deficiencies.
If they are convinced that Kadri cant play center

JVR Bozak Kessel
Lupul Grabo Kulemin

Would be the way I would go.

As far as third line, I would ultimately like to see Kadri in for sure.... So ideally

Kadri Mclement Frattin
Lombardi Steckel Brown

But more likely

McArthur, Mclement, Connolly
would be the third...

I still do think we have wingers to package for prospects or luo later, but I am concerned that they play the vets......

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:18 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Well I remember not too long ago that the HFLeaf fans declared KGM to be the top line. They too supposedly had magical chemistry. Eventually they were split up. They certainly never found that magic that they once had. Again, who knows if it was a Wilson system thing or what?

Just to add:


Look at all the HF rosters for next season. The KGM line is resoundingly split up. Most want Mac traded and Kuli on the 3rd line.

What happened to chemistry people?
Kessel and Lupul have been dynamite together since they were first paired up, it wasn't just a 1 season wonder kind of thing. People actually asked this same question last summer, Kessel and Lupul more then answered it.

As for KGM, Kulemin had one of the worst seasons imaginable, there were also other set-backs like Mac's suspension and getting injured when he came back.

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11-01-2012, 01:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Mr Ball Hockey View Post
Yeah let's split up one of the highest scoring duos in the league last year.
Yeah!!!!

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:28 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
That's too easy:

2010-2011 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 28 games.

Toronto placed 10th in the East

2011-2012 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 66 games

Toronto placed 13th in the East
If it wasn't for Kessel and Lupul the Leafs wouldn't have finished 10th. Also, the Leafs started to improve their play once Lupul arrived.

Note: Yes I'm aware that Reimer's stellar play was also helpful.

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11-01-2012, 01:37 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Please provide any sort of evidence that the Leafs will be better with Kessel and Lupul apart. If you do that, then so be it, but I won't hold my breath.
Tank.

If Lupul and Kessel make the team a bottom 5 team, and splitting them up will make them worse, I'd have to go with the tank.

Leafs should be guaranteed 4th. overall or better.

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Old
11-01-2012, 01:58 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
Kessel and Lupul have been dynamite together since they were first paired up, it wasn't just a 1 season wonder kind of thing. People actually asked this same question last summer, Kessel and Lupul more then answered it.

As for KGM, Kulemin had one of the worst seasons imaginable, there were also other set-backs like Mac's suspension and getting injured when he came back.
It's really hard reasoning with people who have such short memories.

I made a thread in July 2011 declaring that Lupul Bozak Kessel was our top line. "No !" said the fair weather Leaf fans "KGM is in fact our top line!" They argued this because KGM had a hot season, and that Lupul / Kessel had a 28 game sample size. Now everyone is arguing that Kessel / Lupul can't be separated and they're an integral part of the team. In saying that they have forgotten our unbalanced scoring (poor production from the 2nd and 3rd line), AND our lousy finish in the 11-12 season. Were our fans in diapers when the Leafs were a competitive team? Quinn did not stack one line. He tried to have scoring, grit, and defensive play throughout the line-up.

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11-01-2012, 02:02 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Would you prefer a line that scores 90 goals but gives up 100, or a line that only scores 75 but only gives up 65?

For a 26th place team, there should be no line combinations written in stone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Thank you for posting this.

WRONG. Kessel was on the ice for 107 goals for and 84 goals against. Lupul was on the ice for 90 goals for and 64 goals against.

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11-01-2012, 02:08 PM
  #47
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This thread is a fail. Like I said to you yesterday forspareparts, Lupul and Kessel, and the teams offence, was not the problem, defensive play and goaltending was. With Kessel and Lupul clearly being on the ice for more goals than goals against, there is absolutely no need to separate them.

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11-01-2012, 02:20 PM
  #48
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I just called Carlyle and he said there is no harm at all, but he did mention that it is Bozak's shape up or ship out year and the fact that he didn't like that Bozak was MJ on Halloween.

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Old
11-01-2012, 02:24 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafs9 View Post
WRONG. Kessel was on the ice for 107 goals for and 84 goals against. Lupul was on the ice for 90 goals for and 64 goals against.
This is no place for facts. It's HF Boards..in short for Hockey Fiction Boards.

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Old
11-01-2012, 02:32 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Now everyone is arguing that Kessel / Lupul can't be separated and they're an integral part of the team.
I haven't heard anyone say they can't be separated; just that they shouldn't, at least to start the season. If Lupul (assuming here Kessel's play won't fall off) plays for any reasonable length of time like Kulemin did last year, then for sure you separate them or at least experiment with new combinations. Until then, no so much.

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