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What would be the harm in moving Lupul away from Kessel?

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Old
11-01-2012, 02:38 PM
  #51
conway902
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Lupul scored 1 more goal ateven strength then was scored against him. This doesnt include the countless PP points he and kessel produced. I think its safe to say hes a plus player for Toronto.
I think our games against boston crushed our whole teams +\-

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11-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
That's too easy:

2010-2011 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 28 games.

Toronto placed 10th in the East

2011-2012 Kessel and Lupul played on a line with each other for 66 games

Toronto placed 13th in the East
Now this.. is to easy. Seems that you think them playing with good Riemer, having better production from 2nd line, etc does not matter? You could always pull up stats for points when playing together, compared to when not, but you won't because it's obvious it would be a loss for your side of the argument.

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11-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #53
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My problem isn't the offence, Kessel is always going to generate a ton of offence. I brought this up in the Marlies thread, seemed the most logical way to get our biggest potential young players into a position to succeed.

Putting Kadri with Kessel gives Kessel someone to play tic-tac-toe and JVR adds a big body presence and more defensive responsibility than Lupul. Both JVR and Kessel are fast and good on the rush.

Lupul with Grabovski and MacArthur is a bit of a question mark, but I think this would work best. Lupul does all the heavy lifting in corners and Grabovski adds the defensive acumen to the line. How much offence can they provide? Probably more than what the old USSR line did last season.

Kulemin-McClement-Frattin would become a fan favourite third line, probably our best in years.

Basically my philosophy is a balance between offence and defence, with the first line getting the most sheltered minutes. 2nd and 3rd lines would be able to cover tougher assignments. Kadri and Frattin both get insulated by experienced players.
Boom. I wrote this yesterday. We've basically gone through 3 threads saying the same thing FSP.

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11-01-2012, 03:05 PM
  #54
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He might not even be a Leaf when the next season begins.

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11-01-2012, 03:19 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
It's really hard reasoning with people who have such short memories.

I made a thread in July 2011 declaring that Lupul Bozak Kessel was our top line. "No !" said the fair weather Leaf fans "KGM is in fact our top line!" They argued this because KGM had a hot season, and that Lupul / Kessel had a 28 game sample size. Now everyone is arguing that Kessel / Lupul can't be separated and they're an integral part of the team. In saying that they have forgotten our unbalanced scoring (poor production from the 2nd and 3rd line), AND our lousy finish in the 11-12 season. Were our fans in diapers when the Leafs were a competitive team? Quinn did not stack one line. He tried to have scoring, grit, and defensive play throughout the line-up.
I know full well about Quinn's teams. If Kulemin can bounce back to his normal self then he, Grabo and JVR could make up a pretty deadly 2nd line and we'll get that important secondary scoring. Of course, if it all doesn't work out then go ahead and change it up.

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11-01-2012, 03:30 PM
  #56
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IMO, they absolutely should not be separated to begin the season.
If they struggle for a period of time and the team struggles, then obviously shake things up.

Obviously they were tremendous together for the past two seasons and the Leafs have not had two players on a PPG+ pace when playing together in a longgg time, not to mention two top 5-6 scorers while both were healthy.

In the end, I think JVR ends up playing between them and we have a solid top line for the future.

If people requested a C for Kessel/Lupul, almost all would say a player with size, skill, quality board work, and around age 22-27.

Lone behold we have a 23yr old, #2 overall pick who is 6 '3' and played some C in his college days in our lineup.

IMO, he will learn the defensive side of the game. He is a skilled #2 overall pick who skates and handles the puck very well. Other than that, the O zone isn't that big of a deal in terms of positioning.... Players tend to roam when they have pressure and puck control.

Check out his 24 points from the 2011-2012 season. (Link below, or someone who knows how can make the video show in the thread)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvphe_Jbs4s


Take notice of how much of his offense in generated from down low board play, being a net front presence, and making high skilled plays.

If JVR finds an ounce of chemistry with lupul/kessel, we may have an answer.

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11-01-2012, 03:44 PM
  #57
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11-01-2012, 04:05 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafs9 View Post
WRONG. Kessel was on the ice for 107 goals for and 84 goals against. Lupul was on the ice for 90 goals for and 64 goals against.
I was speaking in generalities, and not their specific totals, but since you bring it up, how'd they do at even strength?

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11-01-2012, 04:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
I was speaking in generalities, and not their specific totals, but since you bring it up, how'd they do at even strength?
It doesn't matter. They are still bringing more goals than they are letting in. Which is why +/- is such a **** stat. Powerplay goals are a part of hockey.

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11-01-2012, 04:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
if you think that the 25th place leafs "ain't broke" then i cannot figure out what you get from hockey or cheering for this team? do you only care about sick goals and fantasy league point totals?
He wasn't talking about the team he was talking about our main offensive threats that work well together. And as for breaking them up and what's the worst thing that could happen quote. Well the worst thing that could happen is Kessel goes back to a 50-60 point player and Lupul goes back to pre last year. Those two work well together, the problem with the leafs was lack of secondary scoring and goaltending.

None of those have been fixed so if the season started Today I would expect the leafs to finish roughly where they ended last seasons. That is unless others stepped up big time and honestly I don't see that happening, especially to the level I think guys will need to step up.

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11-01-2012, 05:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Joey24 View Post
He wasn't talking about the team he was talking about our main offensive threats that work well together. And as for breaking them up and what's the worst thing that could happen quote. Well the worst thing that could happen is Kessel goes back to a 50-60 point player and Lupul goes back to pre last year. Those two work well together, the problem with the leafs was lack of secondary scoring and goaltending.

None of those have been fixed so if the season started Today I would expect the leafs to finish roughly where they ended last seasons. That is unless others stepped up big time and honestly I don't see that happening, especially to the level I think guys will need to step up.
I have a feeling that IF we split them up to create a balance (winning) that certain fans would be upset. They would rather a PPG Kessel/Lupul over a playoff birth.

Just a hunch though.

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11-01-2012, 05:35 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafs9 View Post
It doesn't matter. They are still bringing more goals than they are letting in. Which is why +/- is such a **** stat. Powerplay goals are a part of hockey.
So maybe they play together on the pp but apart at even strength. There are options. Get out of the box.

I am not necessarily advocating splitting them, I just think all options should be explored.

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Old
11-01-2012, 05:39 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MeowLeafs View Post
He might not even be a Leaf when the next season begins.
What's this?

He's a stop-gap?



It does raise a very good question:

*If the season were to occur*

Can Lupul help us with one of our holes. I think people wouldn't mind seeing him go for the right return. A 1C in return for Lupul, one of our D prospects, and a conditional 1st?


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11-01-2012, 05:44 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
What's this?

He's a stop-gap?



It does raise a very good question:

Can Lupul help us with one of our holes. I think people wouldn't mind seeing him go for the right return. A 1C in return for Lupul, one of our D prospects, and a conditional 1st?
He'll be UFA.

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11-01-2012, 05:48 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
He'll be UFA.
I'll fix that. Thanks.

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11-01-2012, 06:11 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
He'll be UFA.
Maybe. If the whole season is lost, things like whether or not this season counts towards existing contracts is something that will need to be negotiated.

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11-01-2012, 06:12 PM
  #67
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Maybe. If the whole season is lost, things like whether or not this season counts towards existing contracts is something that will need to be negotiated.
Obviously.

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11-01-2012, 07:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mr Ball Hockey View Post
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Indeed. Kessel and Lupul had terrific chemistry last year, keeping them together seems like an obvious choice. If they start to struggle together under a new system, then try splitting them up, but not need to split them up pre-emptively.

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11-01-2012, 08:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
The defensive responsibility of a line should be on the shoulders of the center. Switch out Lupul would solve less then slotting McClement between them. It's not like JVR is great defensively, or MacAthur. By your rationalization, the only conceivable choice would be to switch for Kulemin...
the bolded part is such a joke, defense is a 6 man job not 4, this team has been brutal in the past because all 6 members havent bought in defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleLeafs9 View Post
WRONG. Kessel was on the ice for 107 goals for and 84 goals against. Lupul was on the ice for 90 goals for and 64 goals against.
powerplay and even strength are completely different scenario's and the game is played completely different in each scenario. adding on to that you don't have to play together 5on5 to play together on the powerplay, so I have no idea why you would put them together. your telling me you would keep sending a line out 5on5 that are giving up more goals against then goals for 5on5 because they make up the difference on the PP?

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11-01-2012, 08:31 PM
  #70
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If Carlyle wanted more balanced scoring then I could see why he wants to split up Kessel and Lupul. However I say he should at least keep them together on the same line at the start.

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11-01-2012, 09:13 PM
  #71
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It is pointless to break up a good chemistry line unless they start playing like Grabo-Kulemin did last season. Kessel needs Lupul for his ability to screen the goalie as well as dish him the puck. Lupul needs Kessel to finish the plays. They start to slump then split them but until then, very lateral move to tear the bromance apart.


Last edited by RealisticLeaf55: 11-01-2012 at 09:14 PM. Reason: grammar fail
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11-01-2012, 09:59 PM
  #72
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What difference would it make?

Top players make everyone around them better.

He does need him on his line to be a star.

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11-01-2012, 10:03 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
the bolded part is such a joke, defense is a 6 man job not 4, this team has been brutal in the past because all 6 members havent bought in defensively.



powerplay and even strength are completely different scenario's and the game is played completely different in each scenario. adding on to that you don't have to play together 5on5 to play together on the powerplay, so I have no idea why you would put them together. your telling me you would keep sending a line out 5on5 that are giving up more goals against then goals for 5on5 because they make up the difference on the PP?
it would be nice if our fan base bought in defensively. such a strange love affair with cool players and "goalz pleaze". if this were a ball hockey game i would hate to have most of these people on my team. "hi cherry pickers! do you care to come back and play some d please!? we're getting killed here."

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11-01-2012, 10:06 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
I know full well about Quinn's teams. If Kulemin can bounce back to his normal self then he, Grabo and JVR could make up a pretty deadly 2nd line and we'll get that important secondary scoring. Of course, if it all doesn't work out then go ahead and change it up.
Just two years ago Kules, Grabs and Mac was one of the deadliest lines in the NHL. Macs suspension threw him off it was obvious and Kules was affected by the tragedy...JVR may just work great there.

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11-01-2012, 10:36 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
it would be nice if our fan base bought in defensively. such a strange love affair with cool players and "goalz pleaze". if this were a ball hockey game i would hate to have most of these people on my team. "hi cherry pickers! do you care to come back and play some d please!? we're getting killed here."
Agreed. We've been bad for so long I think some have forgotten what a good team playing both ends of the ice for a complete 60 minutes is supposed to look like. I don't care if Kessel and Lupul combine for 400 points in a season, if the Leafs finish 5th last, it doesn't matter.

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