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11-04-2012, 02:03 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
While that's partially right, another aspect that can't be forgotten that concussions used to be called "getting your bell rung" not that long ago, and players were expected to "man up" after such hits. They do need to reduce the armor the players wear, though.
It's a lot different getting hit in the head with the equipment they are getting hit with now and a shoulder. The excuse the players use is that it'll lead to more separated shoulders. However, the argument there is there is no need for you to hit a player hard enough to separate a shoulder. That right there goes to show you the respect that lies with the helmet.

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11-04-2012, 03:58 AM
  #127
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It's a lot different getting hit in the head with the equipment they are getting hit with now and a shoulder. The excuse the players use is that it'll lead to more separated shoulders. However, the argument there is there is no need for you to hit a player hard enough to separate a shoulder. That right there goes to show you the respect that lies with the helmet.
Oh, I definitely agree with that aspect. The more protection is used, the less careful people tend to be. Rugby, for instance, has infinitely more contact than hockey, and even though players use next to nothing in terms of padding, yet it's a much more safe.

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Few comprehensive studies have been done in the U.S. evaluating the comparative safety of rugby, but in other countries, where the sport is more popular, rugby ranks BELOW Hockey, Basketball, Soccer, Football, Baseball…even Swimming! (Canadian Hospitals Injury Reporting and Prevention Program (CHIRPP), Health Canada: 1998). A recent study at West Point determined that rugby ranked below (among others) soccer and cross-country for broken bones and joint injuries. Americans tend to think of Rugby as “Football without the pads,” but the truth is, tackling and other physical contact takes a different form when done without pads. Cuts, scrapes, and bruises are common in Rugby, but not serious injuries. The use of pads actually increases the likelihood of serious injury.
Source

It applies to all facets of life, not just hockey, ie: use of masking tape while painting. It's human nature. Protection often gives people a false sense of security, and in extreme cases (players skating around in suits of armor) invulnerability.

I was merely pointing out that concussions occurred often enough in the "Cherry era" as well, they just a) didn't know what it was, b) didn't get any publicity.


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11-04-2012, 09:36 AM
  #128
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Steckel is one of if not the best face-off man in the league, and an ideal 4th-line center. Face-offs are greatly undervalued around here.

Bozak is good defensively, decent offensively, and has chemistry with our best player. Good at face-offs. A good 3rd-liner who can step up in injury situations. Not to mention he was free.

Macarthur is a 20-goal scorer, which is rarer than most people realize around here. Also was free.
Hahaha...this is exactly what I mean. The team is horrible yet all its pieces are valuable assets that were brilliant acquisitions. Don't you understand that the math doesn't work? I guess you enjoy watching your favorite team get humiliated year in year out? You just want to keep icing the same ole crap....All the players above are expendable. They are just guys and not even that good. The results really supports my theory and not yours. You do yourself no favors in life denying the obvious.

The team finished 26th last year and you can't find any holes in the lineup? Are you gonna tell me that all that is required is some tweaking? Maybe like changing the 4th line RW and the 6th defenceman and the Leafs will be playoff bound and maybe even contenders? I don't understand fans of this franchise. I just don't get it.

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11-04-2012, 10:19 AM
  #129
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If the Leafs had even average goaltending no one would view that as horrible.

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11-04-2012, 10:30 AM
  #130
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If the Leafs had even average goaltending no one would view that as horrible.
So why hasn't the GM addressed that in his 4 seasons and why is the best choice still a player he inherited with the job in Reimer?.

Perhaps Burke's best trade is yet to come where he adds a goalie that actually gives Leafs average or better goaltending to make the team successful.

Spending $7 mil of wasted money on Lombardi to obtain a depth dman, as opposed to investing that $7 mil on a goalie that can make a difference instead, would be a better use of team financial resources. IMO

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11-04-2012, 10:35 AM
  #131
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Hahaha...this is exactly what I mean. The team is horrible yet all its pieces are valuable assets that were brilliant acquisitions. Don't you understand that the math doesn't work? I guess you enjoy watching your favorite team get humiliated year in year out? You just want to keep icing the same ole crap....All the players above are expendable. They are just guys and not even that good. The results really supports my theory and not yours. You do yourself no favors in life denying the obvious.

The team finished 26th last year and you can't find any holes in the lineup? Are you gonna tell me that all that is required is some tweaking? Maybe like changing the 4th line RW and the 6th defenceman and the Leafs will be playoff bound and maybe even contenders? I don't understand fans of this franchise. I just don't get it.
Quite a few of the "holes" come from players playing above their skillset. That doesn't make them bad, or useless players, though. Bozak is not your ideal #1C, but he can fill in the #3C spot very nicely. Kulemin is probably not someone you want to have on the 2nd line, but as a 3rd liner, he'd be great. Same goes for Frattin, probably. Gunnarsson, similar story.

Take any team in the league, eliminate their 2nd line/pairing completely, and the rest of the players up by one line/pairing, and you'll see how much difference depth makes.

One of our issues is having too many 3rd liners, and not enough top 6 players. This naturally implies that there's no room for a lot of the players on the team (Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong, MacArthur, etc), and most of those will be gone before too long, if they aren't already.

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11-04-2012, 10:40 AM
  #132
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So why hasn't the GM addressed that in his 4 seasons and why is the best choice still a player he inherited with the job in Reimer?.

Perhaps Burke's best trade is yet to come where he adds a goalie that actually gives Leafs average or better goaltending to make the team successful.

Spending $7 mil of wasted money on Lombardi to obtain a depth dman, as opposed to investing that $7 mil on a goalie that can make a difference instead, would be a better use of team financial resources. IMO
The Leafs have 7 million available right now to get a goalie. Lombardi isn't hurting him to do that.

I'd rather stick with Reimer/Scrivens right now and continue to rebuild. I'm not a fan of getting Luongo at all.

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11-04-2012, 10:41 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
So why hasn't the GM addressed that in his 4 seasons and why is the best choice still a player he inherited with the job in Reimer?.

Perhaps Burke's best trade is yet to come where he adds a goalie that actually gives Leafs average or better goaltending to make the team successful.

Spending $7 mil of wasted money on Lombardi to obtain a depth dman, as opposed to investing that $7 mil on a goalie that can make a difference instead, would be a better use of team financial resources. IMO
Are you not familiar with the goalie situation in TO since Burke took over? He's made quite a few attempts, but nothing really stuck. From Toskala, to Giguere, to Reimer, to Gustavsson, back to Reimer (mostly by default).

Ronnie's system certainly didn't help our goalies out, either. Giguere went from a .900 sv%, 2.87 GAA goalie to a .919 sv%, 2.27 GAA goalie just by getting away from Wilson.

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11-04-2012, 10:43 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Are you not familiar with the goalie situation in TO since Burke took over? He's made quite a few attempts, but nothing really stuck. From Toskala, to Giguere, to Reimer, to Gustavsson, back to Reimer (mostly by default).

Ronnie's system certainly didn't help our goalies out, either. Giguere went from a .900 sv%, 2.87 GAA goalie to a .919 sv%, 2.27 GAA goalie just by getting away from Wilson.
Yup. Stick Mike Smith in Toronto under Wilson and think his numbers look completely different than in Phoenix? Of course.

This team needs a talented goalie, but one which is helped with better coaching and a more responsible defensive system.

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11-04-2012, 10:46 AM
  #135
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One of our issues is having too many 3rd liners, and not enough top 6 players. This naturally implies that there's no room for a lot of the players on the team (Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong, MacArthur, etc), and most of those will be gone before too long, if they aren't already.
That describes busy work and not productive work in trades and signings if the best the changes do is add 3rd line depth creating too many situation. Now those same players added are the ones the need to be swapped out again.

If the problem is not enough top 6 talent then spending money and resources on 3rd liners doesn't address the issue now or back then. Spending to the cap ceiling is not mandatory if the players your spending it on are not helping you win.

Trades that Burke has made like Phaneuf and Lupul/Gardiner are productive as they can be difference makers..

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11-04-2012, 10:55 AM
  #136
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Are you not familiar with the goalie situation in TO since Burke took over? He's made quite a few attempts, but nothing really stuck. From Toskala, to Giguere, to Reimer, to Gustavsson, back to Reimer (mostly by default).

Ronnie's system certainly didn't help our goalies out, either. Giguere went from a .900 sv%, 2.87 GAA goalie to a .919 sv%, 2.27 GAA goalie just by getting away from Wilson.
Oh trust me I'm fully aware of the GM shortcomings in addressing actual team needs like a #1 goalie and #1 center.

I wanted Wilson fired years ago, knowing full well pond hockey no defense system is badly flawed to expect winning results from the team. So if you and I can recognize that, then why didn't our GM recognize that, and even extend the coach before firing him?.

Seems fitting that when discussing best trades, Burke's best move bar non is trading Wilson in for Carlyle.

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11-04-2012, 11:02 AM
  #137
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That describes busy work and not productive work in trades and signings if the best the changes do is add 3rd line depth creating too many situation. Now those same players added are the ones the need to be swapped out again.

If the problem is not enough top 6 talent then spending money and resources on 3rd liners doesn't address the issue now or back then. Spending to the cap ceiling is not mandatory if the players your spending it on are not helping you win.

Trades that Burke has made like Phaneuf and Lupul/Gardiner are productive as they can be difference makers..
That's the problem when you start out with a team that has nothing but holes, and very little assets to use as currency for transactions. I don't know if there's another team in the league who's had as much roster turnover as the Leafs did since Burke's arrival. He's taken calculated risks with trades/signings, some which have not, but a lot more of them worked out fairly well. Most of the ones that didn't work out, he was able to flip for different assets.

Imagine if your objective is to win a million dollars worth of chips in poker, but only starting out with a $5 chip. Even if you win every single round, it'll take you a while to get to your goal.

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11-04-2012, 11:10 AM
  #138
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Oh trust me I'm fully aware of the GM shortcomings in addressing actual team needs like a #1 goalie and #1 center.
Previous post more or less addressed this. With so many holes to fill, it's natural that some will be left for last. It's not really for the lack of trying that he hasn't filled those few remaining holes yet.

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I wanted Wilson fired years ago, knowing full well pond hockey no defense system is badly flawed to expect winning results from the team. So if you and I can recognize that, then why didn't our GM recognize that, and even extend the coach before firing him?.
This is where the human element comes into play, and why being your friend's boss is not necessarily the best situation. He wanted to give Ronnie the chance to prove that he can get the job done, and Burke let him slide on too many things while he acquired the "necessary personnel" for him (necessary to get out of lottery position, anyways).

When it looked like things weren't going to work out, he gave him an extension to get the media harpies off the team's back, and to give his buddy a severance package. I bet that if someone interviewed Wilson now, he'd say that there's no hard feelings between him and Burke. That may not have been the case had Burke fired him 2-3 seasons ago like he should have.

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Seems fitting that when discussing best trades, Burke's best move bar non is trading Wilson in for Carlyle.
Indeed, that's gotta rank near the top, for sure.

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11-04-2012, 11:52 AM
  #139
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Quite a few of the "holes" come from players playing above their skillset. That doesn't make them bad, or useless players, though. Bozak is not your ideal #1C, but he can fill in the #3C spot very nicely. Kulemin is probably not someone you want to have on the 2nd line, but as a 3rd liner, he'd be great. Same goes for Frattin, probably. Gunnarsson, similar story.

Take any team in the league, eliminate their 2nd line/pairing completely, and the rest of the players up by one line/pairing, and you'll see how much difference depth makes.

One of our issues is having too many 3rd liners, and not enough top 6 players. This naturally implies that there's no room for a lot of the players on the team (Connolly, Lombardi, Armstrong, MacArthur, etc), and most of those will be gone before too long, if they aren't already.
Arguments like yours do not sway me one freakin inch on the effectiveness of this crappy GM and his rebuild. So what you're telling me in the 4 years that this guy has been here with his revolving door he has managed to get us some nice complimentary players? Big deal. Jeezus. I would think he should have started with building the damn core of the team either by drafting it or by trading for it. Whats so great about finding complimentary pieces that are pretty much available any time. Its not the hard part of the puzzle. Like Mess said.....who cares about Franson AND taking Lombardi to get him.....when he keeps drafting defencemen? If that kind of a deal was made to actually fill a need on the team like forwards or goalies it would make sense. Maybe he acquired Franson to flip him for something he actually needs? I don't know but his act is getting old. I tend to believe had they left the GM role vacant or filled it with the TSN monkey who spins the wheel and just let play things out...and drafted like the Oilers did..they would be no further behind after four years.

Fans gloating over the fact that half the roster is off the books after 5 years of Burke, thereby needing pretty much a rebuild at that point think that this is good management? Or is he going to fill out the roster with all that high octane talent he has acquired while the team has been unintentionally tanking?

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11-04-2012, 11:55 AM
  #140
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As far as the goaltending issue goes, Burke's biggest blunder was telling Vokoun to take a hike when he approached the Leafs in free agency.

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11-04-2012, 11:56 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Previous post more or less addressed this. With so many holes to fill, it's natural that some will be left for last. It's not really for the lack of trying that he hasn't filled those few remaining holes yet.


This is where the human element comes into play, and why being your friend's boss is not necessarily the best situation. He wanted to give Ronnie the chance to prove that he can get the job done, and Burke let him slide on too many things while he acquired the "necessary personnel" for him (necessary to get out of lottery position, anyways).

When it looked like things weren't going to work out, he gave him an extension to get the media harpies off the team's back, and to give his buddy a severance package. I bet that if someone interviewed Wilson now, he'd say that there's no hard feelings between him and Burke. That may not have been the case had Burke fired him 2-3 seasons ago like he should have.



Indeed, that's gotta rank near the top, for sure.
You mean like it wasn't for a lack of trying on Vesa Toskala's part that he sucked major a$$ before being relegated to some crappy Euro league? You think thats what justifies somebody in their jobs? Trying? Don't you think any professional gives effort? Nobody in the NHL isn't trying. Doesn't mean that they are effective.

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11-04-2012, 12:17 PM
  #142
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Fans gloating over the fact that half the roster is off the books after 5 years of Burke, thereby needing pretty much a rebuild at that point think that this is good management? Or is he going to fill out the roster with all that high octane talent he has acquired while the team has been unintentionally tanking?
If your GM claims he doesn't have the patience for a 5 year rebuild due to his age, and doesn't feel it needs to be that long to ice a competitive team, and then after those 5 seasons have passed he only has 13 players under contract and missing 1/2 a roster that seem like a serious contradiction to me, as it comes across as a restart all over again.

Included among those 13 signed players are Grabovski, Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Frattin and Reimer all players he inherited with the job originally, then that leaves Burkes trades and UFA signings at 8 players for 2013-14 season to show for 5 seasons of rebuilding work.

That leaves in actuality the accumulation of signed and/or traded players after this season (non inherited) at Kessel, JVR, McClement, Brown & Phaneuf, Gardiner, Liles and Komisarek.

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11-04-2012, 01:08 PM
  #143
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Arguments like yours do not sway me one freakin inch on the effectiveness of this crappy GM and his rebuild.
I don't expect any argument to sway your opinion, TBH. You have your mind made up, and short of Burke delivering a cup to TO, nothing will change that. I'm not even sure if that would be enough.

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So what you're telling me in the 4 years that this guy has been here with his revolving door he has managed to get us some nice complimentary players? Big deal. Jeezus. I would think he should have started with building the damn core of the team either by drafting it or by trading for it. Whats so great about finding complimentary pieces that are pretty much available any time. Its not the hard part of the puzzle.
No, I'm saying that the holes on the team aren't as big as you believe. Franchise centers are not a must for a cup, nevermind to be contenders. Just ask Krejci. Depth > #1C, and team defense > #1G. Granted, if you have both great depth and a true franchise #1C, it makes it easier, but it's not a requirement.

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Like Mess said.....who cares about Franson AND taking Lombardi to get him.....when he keeps drafting defencemen?
He keeps drafting BPA, which is what he should be doing. Surplus defensemen can always be flipped at TDL when teams are looking for defensemen for their playoff runs. Not all teams have switched to the mobile defense mentality yet, which could make our excess defensemen fairly valuable to some teams once they develop.

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If that kind of a deal was made to actually fill a need on the team like forwards or goalies it would make sense. Maybe he acquired Franson to flip him for something he actually needs? I don't know but his act is getting old. I tend to believe had they left the GM role vacant or filled it with the TSN monkey who spins the wheel and just let play things out...and drafted like the Oilers did..they would be no further behind after four years.
There certainly is a lot of trial and error involved when building a team from scratch. Not sure why that's surprising.

Also, why bother flipping an asset as soon as you acquired him? First you give him a chance, he may pull a Lupul, or a Gardiner. If not, you give him a season or two to see if he can develop his game to a point where he'll either prove useful to your team, or some other team, and then you flip him. Sort of like what he should have done with Grabo.

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Fans gloating over the fact that half the roster is off the books after 5 years of Burke, thereby needing pretty much a rebuild at that point think that this is good management? Or is he going to fill out the roster with all that high octane talent he has acquired while the team has been unintentionally tanking?
Quite a few good pieces of the puzzle were collected during those 3 years and change, with a chance to exchange the rest of the "broken" pieces for upgrades in the very near future. Not sure where you get the idea that a complete rebuild will be needed after Burke's 5 years.

He gets those "high octane" talent wherever they come from. Be it trades, drafting, or FA signings. Who cares where they come from, as long as we obtain them?

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11-04-2012, 01:11 PM
  #144
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You mean like it wasn't for a lack of trying on Vesa Toskala's part that he sucked major a$$ before being relegated to some crappy Euro league? You think thats what justifies somebody in their jobs? Trying? Don't you think any professional gives effort? Nobody in the NHL isn't trying. Doesn't mean that they are effective.
No, I wasn't talking about Toskala. We were talking about Burke not being able to acquire a #1G to date, and it not being the result of Burke sitting idle, ignoring the goaltending situation completely.

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11-04-2012, 01:16 PM
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As far as the goaltending issue goes, Burke's biggest blunder was telling Vokoun to take a hike when he approached the Leafs in free agency.
Maybe WRT goaltending that was one of his biggest mistakes. This is, of course, with 20/20 hindsight. Wasn't that right around the time when Leafs Nation was still high on Optimus Reim?

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11-04-2012, 01:36 PM
  #146
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If Burke Signs Vokoun last year, we get a crappier draft pick (No one near as good as Rielly) and still miss the playoffs.

Was that really a mistake?

Vokoun was actually quite a disappointment in Washington last season.

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11-04-2012, 02:05 PM
  #147
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If Burke Signs Vokoun last year, we get a crappier draft pick (No one near as good as Rielly) and still miss the playoffs.

Was that really a mistake?

Vokoun was actually quite a disappointment in Washington last season.
Personally speaking last year I didn't want to sign him and he couldn't remain the #1 Goalie in Washington who on paper was better then Toronto and once again I was happy when Burke didn't trade for his rights.

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11-04-2012, 02:21 PM
  #148
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Pretty much any trade Cliff made in his first go around with the Leafs.

Also, Karpovtsev (me and my buddies nicknamed him the Red Carpet) for Bryan McCabe. I think there was a draft pick in there somewhere, but still.

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11-04-2012, 03:51 PM
  #149
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I don't expect any argument to sway your opinion, TBH. You have your mind made up, and short of Burke delivering a cup to TO, nothing will change that. I'm not even sure if that would be enough.

Hyperbole crap. You and many want to believe that my disdain for the GM is 100% personal dislike for the man. Couldn't be further from the truth. Albeit it is true that I dislike his loud pompous and obnoxious personality...I wouldn't give a damn if he actually delivered something worth applauding. Unlike many of you who love him for his big "reputation" that he brings with him.



No, I'm saying that the holes on the team aren't as big as you believe. Franchise centers are not a must for a cup, nevermind to be contenders. Just ask Krejci. Depth > #1C, and team defense > #1G. Granted, if you have both great depth and a true franchise #1C, it makes it easier, but it's not a requirement.

Your wrong...you and many others like to bring one example out of your weak arsenal of defence. When speaking of the merits of drafting high, those detractors ALWAYS cite Daigle and Stefan out of 50 years of drafting. When the argument is the importance of strength down the middle the detractors look to the Bruins of a couple years back.. even though Krejci absolutely played like a #1 C and led the playoffs in scoring. Weak weak weak thinly veiled arguments, all the while ignoring the obvious great Cup leaders in Gretzky, Messier, Sakic, Trottier, Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin, Yzerman, Toews, Kopitar, Bobby Clarke, Datsyuk, Brad Richards and the list goes on and on.



He keeps drafting BPA, which is what he should be doing. Surplus defensemen can always be flipped at TDL when teams are looking for defensemen for their playoff runs. Not all teams have switched to the mobile defense mentality yet, which could make our excess defensemen fairly valuable to some teams once they develop.

Whatever...the argument is the value of trading for Franson and taking Lombardi in the process when he is stockpiling D and his team is so weak on so many fronts. Another sidestep like a true Burkite. Nice job.



There certainly is a lot of trial and error involved when building a team from scratch. Not sure why that's surprising.

Also, why bother flipping an asset as soon as you acquired him? First you give him a chance, he may pull a Lupul, or a Gardiner. If not, you give him a season or two to see if he can develop his game to a point where he'll either prove useful to your team, or some other team, and then you flip him. Sort of like what he should have done with Grabo.


Quite a few good pieces of the puzzle were collected during those 3 years and change, with a chance to exchange the rest of the "broken" pieces for upgrades in the very near future. Not sure where you get the idea that a complete rebuild will be needed after Burke's 5 years.

I dunno maybe because the man said it himself? In fact he said he didnt believe in 5 year rebuilds. blah blah blah blah bs bs bs bs........you see I like people with integrity. People who say what they mean and mean what they say. Sorry but thats just me. Burke talks too much and produces too little IMO. Again, if he actually produced something valuable I wouldn't give a crap. I watch hockey...not egotistical front office managers. Hockey. So if the man in charge produces entertaining winning hockey, I'm happy.

He gets those "high octane" talent wherever they come from. Be it trades, drafting, or FA signings. Who cares where they come from, as long as we obtain them?

Yes..still waiting. No #1 G. No #1C and jury out to the #1 D, IMO...

Overall, your arguments in defence of Mr. Burke are the same as everbody else's who defends the man in charge. Nothing new to see here. And one can say the same about posters like myself who pose counter arguments..because they are true. I like DO's factual posts when he talks about the results...real results posted by Mr. Burke since his arrival. That for me is the irrefutable evidence, IMO, the rest is just opinion.

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11-04-2012, 04:29 PM
  #150
bunjay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Are you not familiar with the goalie situation in TO since Burke took over? He's made quite a few attempts, but nothing really stuck. From Toskala, to Giguere, to Reimer, to Gustavsson, back to Reimer (mostly by default).

Ronnie's system certainly didn't help our goalies out, either. Giguere went from a .900 sv%, 2.87 GAA goalie to a .919 sv%, 2.27 GAA goalie just by getting away from Wilson.
You don't get credit for trying and failing repeatedly. And Wilson was also 100% Burke's fault.

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