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Would Luke Schenn still be a Maple Leaf had he played 1 more year in the WHL?

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Old
11-01-2012, 08:53 PM
  #1
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Would Luke Schenn still be a Maple Leaf had he played 1 more year in the WHL?

This is one of those what if type questions but earlier I was thinking it's great that Morgan Rielly is getting at least this year to play in the WHL and not being rushed to the NHL, however I think no matter what he would have gone back if there was no lockout.

Now that has me wondering if Toronto had decided to send Luke Schenn back to the WHL prior to the 2008-2009 season for at least one more year of Junior, would he have been a better player today and possibly still on the Maple Leafs? We all remember the hype after he was drafted and I didn't think Ron Wilson was correct saying he gets better experience staying in the NHL. Not trying to compare them but Tyler Myers spent 1 more season in the WHL and a lot of people have said he was better then Schenn. Even Pierre McGuire said it wouldn't have hurt and chances are he would have made the Canadian Junior team that won in Ottawa and I respect his opinion.

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11-01-2012, 08:57 PM
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The thing with Schenn though is he still had a great rookie year. Then he sucked. But then he had a huge rebound year and looked great. And then he sucked even more.

Schenn has shown he can play, I don't think he another year would have done much more for him. He just needs to be able to do what he is capable of consistently.

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11-01-2012, 08:58 PM
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No, he played fantastic as a rookie. That's not what hurt his development, it was poor coaching and training. He bulked up way too much which made him very sluggish, that paired up with his average/slightly below average positioning was a recipe for disaster.

Wilson's style imho really screwed with his game.

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11-01-2012, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
No, he played fantastic as a rookie. That's not what hurt his development, it was poor coaching and training. He bulked up way too much which made him very sluggish, that paired up with his average/slightly below average positioning was a recipe for disaster.

Wilson's style imho really screwed with his game.
i agree, i expect him to flourish in Philly.. pretty solid D core they have there

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11-01-2012, 09:04 PM
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Epictetus
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No.

There is no causal proof to suggest that Luke Schenn would have turned out to be a different player than the player he is today if he had another year in the WHL.

The breed of what Luke Schenn brings (i.e., a physical shut-down d-man) is just as replaceable with intelligent, high IQ hockey players who possess great mobility and a great stick.

And as such, Burke and co. are evidently heading in the direction outlined above. This is the NHL today and the future of the NHL until the game evolves eliminating the need for a particular type of player (we've already seen this with ''fighters'').

I, therefore, conclude the development of Luke Schenn is not the question that needs to be asked; instead, was Luke Schenn doomed from the very start for his style of play not being in line with the evolving path of an NHL d-man?

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11-01-2012, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
No, he played fantastic as a rookie. That's not what hurt his development, it was poor coaching and training. He bulked up way too much which made him very sluggish, that paired up with his average/slightly below average positioning was a recipe for disaster.

Wilson's style imho really screwed with his game.
I agree with this and when you add on his new big contract I believe he tried to do to much at times last year to justify that contract and it cost him.

Schenn had played very well up till last season, the year before by the end of the season Schenn was the guy who was getting alot of the big defensive assignments, like close out games when up by a goal in the last minute and was doing an good job, when we went on that run when Reimer came up.

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11-01-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
No.

There is no causal proof to suggest that Luke Schenn would have turned out to be a different player than the player he is today if he had another year in the WHL.

The breed of what Luke Schenn brings (i.e., a physical shut-down d-man) is just as replaceable with intelligent, high IQ hockey players who possess great mobility and a great stick.

And as such, Burke and co. are evidently heading in the direction outlined above. This is the NHL today and the future of the NHL until the game evolves eliminating the need for a particular type of player (we've already seen this with ''fighters'').

I, therefore, conclude the development of Luke Schenn is not the question that needs to be asked; instead, was Luke Schenn doomed from the very start for his style of play not being in line with the evolving path of an NHL d-man?
not really LA just won the cup with guys like Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi they don't really have any more talent then Schenn, or are not really any better skaters then Schenn, these guys just are better at defensive positioning and plays a smart safe game, something that comes with Expierence, the type of thing Schenn still lacks for a defensive Dmen at only 22. in time he should be just as effective if not better then these guys imo.

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11-01-2012, 09:25 PM
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Schenn was and still is a very good defenceman who played in a system that was horrible. He was also used as a whipping boy by his coach.

He never should have been traded as he is what we will miss....a tough to play against D man who blocks shots. He will flourish with the Flyers.

NHL teams need tough to play against D man and that will never change in spite of what Burke states.....you need both types of D man to win.

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11-01-2012, 09:31 PM
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Schenn was physically ready for the NHL. He had a great rookie year. That is not what hurt him, and he will still go on to have a great career.

Rielly was going back no matter what because he barely played last season.

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11-01-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
The thing with Schenn though is he still had a great rookie year. Then he sucked. But then he had a huge rebound year and looked great. And then he sucked even more.

Schenn has shown he can play, I don't think he another year would have done much more for him. He just needs to be able to do what he is capable of consistently.
Schenn put on way to much bulk. At times he looked like he could hardly move and I don't think another year in jr would have done much for him. I think even if Schenn continued on his rookie season and was solid throughout his tenure in Toronto, that Brian Burke still would have pulled this trade we probably would have got JVR + opposed to 1 - 1.

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11-01-2012, 09:39 PM
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It is impossible to answer these types of questions.

What I will say is that Luke Schenn has great potential to be a top tier shutdown D-man. His skating might always be hated on, but he's not terrible and IMO is above average for a shutdown D-man. He had a great outlet pass as well. His biggest problem was that he could never adapt to Wilson's system, whatever that was(lol). To be fair though, Wilson's system throughout his NHL career was always dependant on a great goaltender, and that is something Toronto has not had for a decade now.

In the end it we'll see if it works out though, we traded for a player whose potential vastly trumps Schenn's IMO if he can put it together

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11-01-2012, 09:48 PM
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Like with all draftees, it's proven that sending them back cannot hurt them, bringing them up too soon can. He did play well in his rookie year but I wanted him sent back down. I saw no reason to rush him.

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11-01-2012, 09:51 PM
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No. JVR is more of a need to this team then Schenn.

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11-01-2012, 09:54 PM
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He's good along the boards....

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11-01-2012, 09:59 PM
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All defenceman should play the two junior years.

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11-01-2012, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
not really LA just won the cup with guys like Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi they don't really have any more talent then Schenn, or are not really any better skaters then Schenn, these guys just are better at defensive positioning and plays a smart safe game, something that comes with Expierence, the type of thing Schenn still lacks for a defensive Dmen at only 22. in time he should be just as effective if not better then these guys imo.
Not really...LA won the Cup with guys like Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi, supplemented on a much more talented squad, including players like Voynov who outshined those three, and did so with 250 games less than Luke Schenn. Whether those three play a safer game, or are only marginally better as a result of the collecitve team defence the Kings thrived on is neither here nor there.

There's nothing predictable about Schenn's development, with one more year in the past in the WHL or the next ten in the NHL. I think Epictetus' analysis is spot on, particularly, "The breed of what Luke Schenn brings (i.e., a physical shut-down d-man) is just as replaceable with intelligent, high IQ hockey players who possess great mobility and a great stick. "

Because experience isn't going to remove the kind of gaffes Schenn became synonymous for. It's not going to enhance his dexterity or foot speed, and it's not going to alter an abililty to learn NHL fundamentals that four plus seasons couldn't.

Enthusiasm and adrenaline are going to carry him through his first year as a Flyer, I suspect. It's the next season I'm interested in seeing where the emotion might not be as full and his skill has to do the heavy lifting. I wish him the best. Like him as a player -- didn't at 5 -- and think he's better than where his last season left him.

I don't think Toronto handled his development poorly.Then and now, value wise, Luke Schenn was never a number 5 pick, and we should never have expected anything more than what he was able to provide.

Biggest mistake was ours not his.

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11-02-2012, 12:08 AM
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Not really...LA won the Cup with guys like Mitchell, Greene, Scuderi, supplemented on a much more talented squad, including players like Voynov who outshined those three, and did so with 250 games less than Luke Schenn. Whether those three play a safer game, or are only marginally better as a result of the collecitve team defence the Kings thrived on is neither here nor there.

There's nothing predictable about Schenn's development, with one more year in the past in the WHL or the next ten in the NHL. I think Epictetus' analysis is spot on, particularly, "The breed of what Luke Schenn brings (i.e., a physical shut-down d-man) is just as replaceable with intelligent, high IQ hockey players who possess great mobility and a great stick. "

Because experience isn't going to remove the kind of gaffes Schenn became synonymous for. It's not going to enhance his dexterity or foot speed, and it's not going to alter an abililty to learn NHL fundamentals that four plus seasons couldn't.

Enthusiasm and adrenaline are going to carry him through his first year as a Flyer, I suspect. It's the next season I'm interested in seeing where the emotion might not be as full and his skill has to do the heavy lifting. I wish him the best. Like him as a player -- didn't at 5 -- and think he's better than where his last season left him.

I don't think Toronto handled his development poorly.Then and now, value wise, Luke Schenn was never a number 5 pick, and we should never have expected anything more than what he was able to provide.

Biggest mistake was ours not his.
I'm sorry but in no way shape or form did Voynov out play Mitchell in the post-season or Scuderi who both played more minutes and harder minutes then Voynov and Greene also played harder minutes aswell as Voynov extra 3 minutes per game was via the powerplay. and on LA's 92% PK the three leaders in ice-time were Mitchell, Scuderi, and Greene. clearly if Voynov was playing better then these guys he should have been given more minutes which that clearly was not the case. he was given sheltered minutes 5on5 and 3 minutes per game on the PP.

and basically it seems like you have a short memory as your basically looking at Schenn's last season and completely forgetting season's past. Defensive Dmen are not going anywhere you need rugged tough Dmen willing to sacrifice there bodies to dominate big power forwards down low, clearing the front of the net and blocking shots stuff guys like Voynov will never be good at.

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11-02-2012, 12:17 AM
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I wish we had kept Schenn and given him another year under Carlyle and a different diet/training. He would've been a key part of our top 4 for a long time.

Rielly - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Schenn
Gunnarsson - Finn
-Blacker/Percy/Granberg/Loov

That would've been solid if Schenn came back to rookie form.

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11-02-2012, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SnipeCheeseAllDay View Post
I wish we had kept Schenn and given him another year under Carlyle and a different diet/training. He would've been a key part of our top 4 for a long time.

Rielly - Phaneuf
Gardiner - Schenn
Gunnarsson - Finn
-Blacker/Percy/Granberg/Loov

That would've been solid if Schenn came back to rookie form.
I'd rather have JVR.

While schenn's actual hitting ability isn't quite easily replaceable, it is fairly cheap/easy to get a shutdown d-man.

however the potential JVR has is huge, powerforwards like him(if he reaches his potential) do not come cheap at all. It was a great trade.

Holzer will offset the schenn loss this year a little bit(coupled with the new system). I 'm sure we can find another shutdown d-man to add as well.

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11-02-2012, 02:22 AM
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No. JVR is more of a need to this team then Schenn.
I agree but I think that deal was more about future value then necessarily about team need for us. A few years down the road we'll see why JVR was drafted second and Schenn was fifth. Schenn has top 4 potential, JVR has first line potential. Key word being potential lol

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11-02-2012, 03:35 AM
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i agree, i expect him to flourish in Philly.. pretty solid D core they have there
I see this a lot like its a forgone conclusion. If there is one team that is even close to the wide open offensive run and gun that was the Leafs, its definately Philadelphia. They do have a good defense group, but a very mobile group with high IQ and is relied on to initiate offense in a manner similar to the Leafs. Luke Schenn will face the same problems in Philly as in Toronto. His poor judgement with the puck, slow foot speed and lack of offensive flair will be just as evident on a team like Philly. Perhaps even more so as its a much betteer team overall. They have high expecations for next season and beyond. He will likely be for Philly what he was for us. A player that has periods of sustained solid play, but will follow it up with a period of sustained sucking.

another year in Jr certainly couldn't of hurt his game could have used that year to work on the more intricate aspects to the game. Experiment with different skating styles, work to develop more offense etc. It was a bonus year that should have been taken advantage of to allow him to try things in a less pressure filled environment as the NHL, on the Leafs no less.


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11-02-2012, 04:31 AM
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It may not be the reason he's gone, but it definately hurt his development.

Had he gone back to junior, he would have been able to deveop his offensive game.

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11-02-2012, 08:10 AM
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It may not be the reason he's gone, but it definately hurt his development.

Had he gone back to junior, he would have been able to deveop his offensive game.
He doesn't have an offensive game though, It's not anywhere in is toolbox and imo, still did a good job of racking up points for a defensive minded defensemen each year hes played.

08-09 2g 12a 14pts
09-10 5g 12a 17pts
10-11 5g 17a 22pts
11-12 2g 20a 22pts

I guess what im trying to say is had he gone back to JR, I doubt it would of made an impact on his offensive game

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11-02-2012, 08:14 AM
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No.

If he played in the WHL one more year he'd have score at least 100 points and twould realize his hidden offensive talent. This would cause him to be one of the greatest defenders to ever play the game, and he would be 'too big' for the Leafs, and would force a trade to the New York Islanders.

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11-02-2012, 08:27 AM
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The issues with Schenn were not that he was rushed because he was great as a rookie. A step back the following year was to be expected, but he gradually regressed with each passing season.

It's his lack of speed and limited offensive abilities that held him back. Whether those could have been improved with another year in the WHL, I'm not so certain. And I do believe that him being a 5th overall pick really hampered him -- instead of accepting that he was a 3rd/4th defenceman, it was always expected that he turn out to be a top pairing, shut-down d-man. Fans were always going to expect more out of him than he possibly could have given.

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