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I agree with the first point and I actually don't see Luongo as the best fit given where the Oilers are at. I disagree with the second part. I think that good goalies rarely become available. I know that people will bring up Halak and Smith and a few others but those are actually fairly rare and for every one that works there are about 10 that don't. I think HF Boards underestimates just how hard it is to get a number one goalie. It's probably, IMO, one of the hardest positions to fill.
I just looked through the top 30 goalies in games played last year. Of the top 30, it looked to me like 11 made their first appearance on the list for their particular teams. That's actually a heck of a lot of turnover and movement at the position. More than a third of teams had a new starter! Admittedly, not all performed well but there are a lot of opportunities to find an upgrade in the market, often without giving up anything significant. Minute munching dmen, not so much.
edit - Looking at top minute munching dmen, where JBow ranked 6th, only 3 of the top 30 were playing for new teams (Jack Johnson, Dennis Wideman, James Wisniewski).
I just looked through the top 30 goalies in games played last year. Of the top 30, it looked to me like 11 made their first appearance on the list for their particular teams. That's actually a heck of a lot of turnover and movement at the position. More than a third of teams had a new starter! Admittedly, not all performed well but there are a lot of opportunities to find an upgrade in the market, often without giving up anything significant. Minute munching dmen, not so much.
Give me a couple of examples. If you're looking at guys like Quick, Schneider, Rask etc none of those guys were picked up on the market but all were developed in house. Again, I'm open to hearing actual examples of who was available last year.
And looking at the top 30 is not really vaild, IMO. To do something in the playoffs you probably need a better goalie than one in the top 30.
As for minute crunching defencemen I guess I see tham as being easier as Vancouver has acquired Ehrhoff, Hamhuis and Garrison in the last few years.
Give me a couple of examples. If you're looking at guys like Quick, Schneider, Rask etc none of those guys were picked up on the market but all were developed in house. Again, I'm open to hearing actual examples of who was available last year.
Dont know about last season but EDM has picked up goalies on the fly in the past.
Salo \ Roloson\ Cujo etc. We have not developed a single starter since the 90s. Hopefully Dubnyk changes that.
Not sure why you cant see Dubnyk being a good option for EDM.. Both him and Schneider were drafted in the same round\the same age.. There is a lot of room for improvement.. Trading him now without seeing his full potential would be stupid. EDM has the chance to develop Dubnyk with the 4\5 kids we got.
Dont know about last season but EDM has picked up goalies on the fly in the past. Salo \ Roloson\ Cujo etc. We have not developed a single starter since the 90s. Hopefully Dubnyk changes that.
Yikes! That's a long time ago!
That really reinforces my point.
As for why I don't see Dubnyk as a good option, I never said that. I simply pointed out that Schneider has had some elite seasons as a pro in the AHL and last year in the NHL whereas Dubnyk never has. Obviously, this doesn't mean that Dubnyk can't continue to improve I just wouldn't count on it happening.
I just looked through the top 30 goalies in games played last year. Of the top 30, it looked to me like 11 made their first appearance on the list for their particular teams. That's actually a heck of a lot of turnover and movement at the position. More than a third of teams had a new starter! Admittedly, not all performed well but there are a lot of opportunities to find an upgrade in the market, often without giving up anything significant. Minute munching dmen, not so much.
edit - Looking at top minute munching dmen, where JBow ranked 6th, only 3 of the top 30 were playing for new teams (Jack Johnson, Dennis Wideman, James Wisniewski).
Honest Question:
Would Edmonton rather give up a more futures oriented package for J-Bo (Calgary lilely wants youth/picks) so guys like Pajaarvi, Klefbom, protected 1st etc
Or a package of "impact now" players to Vancouver for Luongo (like Hemsky/Gagner etc).
I mean a trade for J-Bo likely costs Edmonton pieces from their youth movement, whereas a Luongo trade likely features more current pieces (maybe MG goes after a 1st/Pajaarvi but he prob wants more instant roster help).
Yikes! That's a long time ago!
That really reinforces my point.
sure ...
but Oilers history reinforces the point that in the past 20 years we have preferred to pick up a goalie in his prime rather then develop one ourselves.
Give me a couple of examples. If you're looking at guys like Quick, Schneider, Rask etc none of those guys were picked up on the market but all were developed in house. Again, I'm open to hearing actual examples of who was available last year.
And looking at the top 30 is not really vaild, IMO. To do something in the playoffs you probably need a better goalie than one in the top 30.
Over the last couple years, goalies just entering the list for their current teams that I feel would be an upgrade over a Dubnyk/Khabi tandem:
Mike Smith, Anti Niemi, Ilya Bryzgalov, Craig Anderson, Kari Lehtonen, Halak, Varlamov, Vokoun, Elliott, Theodore.
Guys who have been developed over the last couple years and are now or will soon be starters:
sure ...
but Oilers history reinforces the point that in the past 20 years we have preferred to pick up a goalie in his prime rather then develop one ourselves.
Ok. But I'm not sure that proves that they are easy to pick up. The last good one you got was Rolson.
We pciked up Ehrhoff, Hmahuis and Garrison as big minute eating defencemen in the last few years. I see that as an easier acquisition.
Would Edmonton rather give up a more futures oriented package for J-Bo (Calgary lilely wants youth/picks) so guys like Pajaarvi, Klefbom, protected 1st etc
Or a package of "impact now" players to Vancouver for Luongo (like Hemsky/Gagner etc).
Well, we won't create a hole for either assets. So no, no Gagner. And certainly no Klefbom for either. But Hemsky, PRV, draft picks, these are in play if a fair deal can be reached for either.
Would Edmonton rather give up a more futures oriented package for J-Bo (Calgary lilely wants youth/picks) so guys like Pajaarvi, Klefbom, protected 1st etc
Or a package of "impact now" players to Vancouver for Luongo (like Hemsky/Gagner etc).
EDM has a lot of tier 2 prospects that many teams around the league would like to have.. None of Lander\Hamilton\Pitlick\Marincin\Reider are elite but could seem attactive to teams needing depth.
Would CGY be interested in a Lander+Paajarvi for JBo deal?
To answer your Q ... EDM would rather use its prospect depth to fill in holes then give up a significant piece in Hemsky for a slight upgrade in net.
Your mileage may vary on each of these, but its not a small list and I'm sure I forgot some. There's a lot of goalie turnover.
Of the goalies turning over in the last few years I'd say that Smith, Anderson, Halak and Lehtonen would be a significant improvement. As would Varlamov but he cost a first rounder. Lindback is not yet a starter so too soon to say. The other guys were developed in house and are not available unless your team develops them. So basically four decent starting goalies in the last few years turned over. That's slim pickings IMO.
Of the goalies turning over in the last few years I'd say that Smith, Anderson, Halak and Lehtonen would be a significant improvement. As would Varlamov but he cost a first rounder. Lindback is not yet a starter so too soon to say. The other guys were developed in house and are not available unless your team develops them. So basically four decent starting goalies in the last few years turned over. That's slim pickings IMO.
You threw out a lot of pretty good goalies on that list, including a stanley cup winner... It's really not slim pickings. And I included goalies developed in house because EDM has 2 solid prospects in Roy and Bunz, not to mention the possibility that Dubnyk takes the next step and runs with it.
For the record, I'd like Luongo (despite the contract and inherent risks) but I'd like JBow more. Last year we were 2nd last in the league despite having average goaltending. That is mostly attributable to a porous defense.
Are Varlamov, Vokoun, Elliott, Theodore and Niemi not an upgrade on Dubnyk/Khabi?
edit - the real question should be: Is the difference between Varlamov/Vokoun/Elliott/Theodore/Niemi/Smith/Halak/Anderson/Lehtonen and Luongo greater than the difference between JBow and Sutton/Potter/Peckham? The answer is clearly no.
I suppose Edmonton could also pick up some other dman making the whole thing moot, but JBow is the only top pairing dman that wouldn't require elite assets going the other way.
I'd say that's not the question. You'e talking about replacing a bottom pairing defenceman who plays maybe 10 minutes a game with a goalie who plays close to 60games. I think Luongo is a big improvement over Dubnyk and he's better than those other gaolies. A starting goalie is much more important than a 5/6 defenceman.
There might be two good starting goalies who become available each year and there are probably about 8 teams looking for one. That is why you see many of the same teams every year with subpar goaltending.
I'd say that's not the question. You'e talking about replacing a bottom pairing defenceman who plays maybe 10 minutes a game with a goalie who plays close to 60games. I think Luongo is a big improvement over Dubnyk and he's better than those other gaolies. A strarting goalie is much more important than a 5/6 defenceman.
K well I previously deleted the quoted because I realized it was confusing. So I agree, that's not really the question. Still, Edmonton needs a solid, healthy minute munching dman more than we need to upgrade Dubnyk.
K well I previously deleted the quoted because I realized it was confusing. So I agree, that's not really the question. Still, Edmonton needs a solid, healthy minute munching dman more than we need to upgrade Dubnyk.
You obviously know better than myself what Edmonton needs. I was merely commenting on an earlier post which said that top goalies are easy to acquire. I just don't believe that is the case and it certainly hasn't been for most of the Canuck's history and the last number of years for Edmonton as well.
Personally I am hoping for Bouw. I think he'd be cheaper and have as large an impact as RL would.
I guess we'll see what, if anything, plays out.
Personally I don't see either Luongo or JBo as good fits for the Oilers.
If I was asked which move is more likely it is JBo.
There has been lots of talk from the Oilers with regards to acquiring a veteran D Man since the end of last season. There has been rumored interest in the likes of Yandle and Streit. Bob Stauffer on Oilers Now has many times over the last few months pumped the tires of JBo. He has interviewed Some Calgary radio guys and Jbo's value has been discussed on some occasions. Consensus was 2nd and B prospect (take that for what it is worth) but that's a lot less than what's being asked for Luongo on these boards,.considering his cap hit and the cap dropping, it might be on the right track.
Contast that with what Stauffer has said about Luongo, pretty much zero and I think you have your answer.
The only comments that have come out as regards goaltending were those from Lowe where all he basically said that currently the goalie position was questionable but Dubnyk was trending upward and needed to take the opportunity to become the #1. I honestly believe if there was even a slight possibility of Luongo to Edm, Bob Stauffer would be selling it hard to the fans now.
As I said I personally don't want either but just throwing this out there.
I don't know if its been said yet but what about a trade with Montreal surrounding Subban and Yakupov,
To EDM- P.Subban, 1st
To MTL- N.Yakupov, A.Sutton, O.Roy
The thought of losing Yakupov before he's even played a game in the NHL makes me want to cry. As much as I like Subban and expect Montreal to suck this year, Yak could be something very very special. May one day have a shooting percentage above 100%...
