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Part 4|GM#12:Toronto @ Oklahoma City|13/11/2012|11:30AM|Stars that don't shine

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11-02-2012, 11:57 PM
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
I've said it before, and now I will say it again.....Kadri's a dud.
If this is the case a lot of players from the 2009 draft are as well

Colborne is from a year ago is even more so then ?

Patience and more patience.

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11-03-2012, 06:21 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
I've said it before, and now I will say it again.....Kadri's a dud.
I'm not sure about a dud... but ultimately results are all that counts. 3 points in 8 games...

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11-03-2012, 08:12 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
I'm not sure about a dud... but ultimately results are all that counts. 3 points in 8 games...
Player A: 8 GP, 2 goals 2 assists, 4 points, -5, had a 4 game pointless streak, 18 shots.

Player B: 8 GP, 0 goals 3 assists, 3 points, -2, had a 3 game pointless streak, 19 shots.

Player A is an all-star and franchise player.

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11-03-2012, 09:29 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Player A: 8 GP, 2 goals 2 assists, 4 points, -5, had a 4 game pointless streak, 18 shots.

Player B: 8 GP, 0 goals 3 assists, 3 points, -2, had a 3 game pointless streak, 19 shots.

Player A is an all-star and franchise player.
Who's player A? I'm too lazy to look it up.

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11-03-2012, 09:40 AM
  #380
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Who's player A? I'm too lazy to look it up.
Claude Giroux

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11-03-2012, 10:20 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Player A: 8 GP, 2 goals 2 assists, 4 points, -5, had a 4 game pointless streak, 18 shots.

Player B: 8 GP, 0 goals 3 assists, 3 points, -2, had a 3 game pointless streak, 19 shots.

Player A is an all-star and franchise player.
Gregg Mckegg is 2-2-4 points in 8 games and Kadri and Colborne are 0-3-3 points in 8 games each.

McKegg is really showing up these higher ranked prospects.

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11-03-2012, 10:26 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Player A: 8 GP, 2 goals 2 assists, 4 points, -5, had a 4 game pointless streak, 18 shots.

Player B: 8 GP, 0 goals 3 assists, 3 points, -2, had a 3 game pointless streak, 19 shots.

Player A is an all-star and franchise player.
I assume you are using Giroux's stats from his first 8 games in the AHL, and not something else?

So, your suggestion is that it is ok for Kadri to be struggling in his THIRD year of the AHL, because Giroux did in his ROOKIE year of the AHL? Of course Giroux went on to score 8 goals, and 6 assists in 8 games in December of that year, and ended up as PPG player in the half season of AHL he played, before graduating permanently to the NHL... Meanwhile Kadri is in his third year, and still hasn't permanently graduated. Is that the comparison you are making? I'll be the first to give Kadri praises if he can pocket 14 +- points in 8 games...

Interesting enough, Kadri is going to have to have a streak just like Giroux did, just to get back to being a PPG player, which I think is pretty much where expectations are, and should be, for a player such as him, should we hope that he might become a second liner in the NHL some day. I like Kadri, and I have high hopes for him, but ultimately if he doesn't put up points, what good is he for us? ..and seriously, of all the seasons to come up like this, in the one that he needed to really show he was ready...


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11-03-2012, 10:50 AM
  #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
I've said it before, and now I will say it again.....Kadri's a dud.
hes gonna make you eat them words lol

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11-03-2012, 10:51 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
I assume you are using Giroux's stats from his first 8 games in the AHL, and not something else?

So, your suggestion is that it is ok for Kadri to be struggling in his THIRD year of the AHL, because Giroux did in his ROOKIE year of the AHL? Of course Giroux went on to score 8 goals, and 6 assists in 8 games in December of that year, and ended up as PPG player in the half season of AHL he played, before graduating permanently to the NHL... Meanwhile Kadri is in his third year, and still hasn't permanently graduated. Is that the comparison you are making?

Interesting enough, Kadri is going to have to have a streak just like Giroux did, just to get back to being a PPG player, which I think is pretty much where expectations are, and should be, for a player such as him, should we hope that he might become a second liner in the NHL some day. I like Kadri, and I have high hopes for him, but ultimately if he doesn't put up points, what good is he for us? ..and seriously, of all the seasons to come up like this, in the one that he needed to really show he was ready...
Technically his first was with the Phantoms in the playoffs if I recall. This was the second afterwards where he started with the Phantoms and then got called up mid way I believe. The next season he stuck with the flyers, his age was 22, which is what Kadri's age currently. He had 47 points in 82 games, 16 goals and 31 assists, with a .57 PPG. Recall he had already played half a season before his first full season without a yo-yo effect of being called up and down, he was hands down just there and settled in.

If you want I can easily bring up game by game comparison of other first line or 1B players who took their sweet time and to make my point through again. I have no problem bringing in more stats but you aren't getting my point. My point I am trying to make is 8 game is NOTHING for a sample size. If you want to talk about sample size sure let's do this with Giroux in the AHL, who I am NOT making a direct comparison but giving an example with:
Player
GP
GoalsAssistsPointsPPG
Nazem Kadri99354883.84
Claude Giroux38181836.95

Not to mention each and every individual prospect have their own different learning curve and they way they make strides. One can be defensive and physically ready while the skill isn't there or it can be the exact opposite. Kadri right now is making good numbers whether people call him a bust or not. As far as the not putting up points we have 19 goals or so in total as a TEAM, so you tell me. Does that mean this team is worth nothing after going to the calder cup? Of course not, this team is a very good stepping stone for all our prospects in the present and the future. We just have to let them get it all together. That also means for players who are expected to perform, being it a top prospect for the organization in Kadri, Colborne and Ashton or All-star Aucoin and NHL sophmore Jake Gardiner. 8 Games won't define this team for the long run, there is more than enough hockey left.

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11-03-2012, 11:11 AM
  #385
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Of course 8 games doesn't define him, and don't take me for a Kadri hater in the least. I'd love for this guy to be a legit first liner in the Big League, more than happy if he becomes a 50-60 point guy. What you hope to see is progress, for a player to work hard and to be moving forward. Sure, it's early, but how much patience does he deserve? If he has less than 10 points after 20 games, should be be concerned? When can we start to justifiably criticize him?

I agree, there is a learning curve, but what do you say when the player is statistically getting worse?

10\11 .93ppg
11\12 .83ppg
12\13 .375ppg

Whatever the issue is for Kadri, Colborne... etc... they need to figure it out. At some point, if neither of them can break their current trends, it is their future.

At what point would you personally, say.. ok, now we have a problem?

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11-03-2012, 11:12 AM
  #386
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I have always been a fan of Kadri, and I've been extremely supportive of a more relaxed developmental pace, but I am getting kind of worried. At this point, he should be at or near a PPG considering his skill set, so to have no goals and only three assists after eight games is kind of disheartening.

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11-03-2012, 11:19 AM
  #387
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I'm going to be concerned if he has no goals within 15 games and is below 8 points total. He seems snake bitten but even still, he has to rack up some points. The entire Marlies are playing bad. Kadri can't let a new prospect like McKegg take the spotlight from him. He has to show that he is NHL ready before someone new (I do believe he is NHL ready however).

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11-03-2012, 11:38 AM
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Of course 8 games doesn't define him, and don't take me for a Kadri hater in the least. I'd love for this guy to be a legit first liner in the Big League, more than happy if he becomes a 50-60 point guy. What you hope to see is progress, for a player to work hard and to be moving forward. Sure, it's early, but how much patience does he deserve? If he has less than 10 points after 20 games, should be be concerned? When can we start to justifiably criticize him?

I agree, there is a learning curve, but what do you say when the player is statistically getting worse?

10\11 .93ppg
11\12 .83ppg
12\13 .375ppg

Whatever the issue is for Kadri, Colborne... etc... they need to figure it out. At some point, if neither of them can break their current trends, it is their future.

At what point would you personally, say.. ok, now we have a problem?
If you just realized my point about small sample size then shouldn't you realize that counting a point per game pace atm is sort of useless ?

I mean that's 10/11: 44 games: .93PPG
11/12: 48 games: .83PPG
12/13: 8 Games: .37PPG
Quote:
Originally Posted by bach View Post
I have always been a fan of Kadri, and I've been extremely supportive of a more relaxed developmental pace, but I am getting kind of worried. At this point, he should be at or near a PPG considering his skill set, so to have no goals and only three assists after eight games is kind of disheartening.
Don't be. He's getting his other aspects of the game, it's not like he' sitting while at it. He's doing the right things and also showing he's willing to use his body more, just be patient.
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'm going to be concerned if he has no goals within 15 games and is below 8 points total. He seems snake bitten but even still, he has to rack up some points. The entire Marlies are playing bad. Kadri can't let a new prospect like McKegg take the spotlight from him. He has to show that he is NHL ready before someone new (I do believe he is NHL ready however).
Agreed, if there is nothing by the 20 game mark where he is still around the 5 points or so then we have something worry about. He is snake bitten along with the entire team, and as far Mckegg...He's been good but he hasn't been as great as in the pre-season IMO. Speaking of which another player who has TOTALLY disappeared would be Nicolas Deschamp.

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11-03-2012, 11:47 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by tmlhockeyfan View Post
I'm going to be concerned if he has no goals within 15 games and is below 8 points total. He seems snake bitten but even still, he has to rack up some points. The entire Marlies are playing bad. Kadri can't let a new prospect like McKegg take the spotlight from him. He has to show that he is NHL ready before someone new (I do believe he is NHL ready however).
Was Horak NHL ready last year? Flames played him on the 4th. line because he was willing to do the job asked of him.

Again, back to the old debate tonnes of time in lower divisions or learning the game at the highest level.

I'm sure some have used the playing Kadri in the bottom 6 will stunt his creativity argument, but is that really true? Do you actually lose talent?

2005-2006
Mike Richards 15:22 a night.
Jeff Carter 12:04 a a night.

Let's hope a new coach can make the difference in the Canadian Maple Leafs.

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11-03-2012, 11:50 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Agreed, if there is nothing by the 20 game mark where he is still around the 5 points or so then we have something worry about. He is snake bitten along with the entire team, and as far Mckegg...He's been good but he hasn't been as great as in the pre-season IMO. Speaking of which another player who has TOTALLY disappeared would be Nicolas Deschamp.
He was player of the month in the AHL last year. At the time I asked if he could do it again. Perhaps he's just a streaky player, not a player who'll consistently put up good numbers.

I think he has to have over PPG performance in the AHL this year. If the NHL comes onboard he should be willing to be the waterboy on the NHL bench without an attitude if they ask him.

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11-03-2012, 12:41 PM
  #391
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These past two Abbotsford Heat verses Marlie games really shed a light on the prospective prospect pools of the parent NHL teams Calgary and Toronto.

Calgary's top forward prospects:

Sven Bartschi (Born Oct 5 1992) - age 20 .. (Drafted round 1 #13 overall in 2010) = 9 games 4-7-11 points

Roman Horak (Born May 21 1991) - age 21 ...(Drafted round 5 #127 overall in 2009) = 9 games 10 goals 1 assists 11 points.

Verses

Leafs top forward prospects:

Nazem Kadri (Born Oct 6, 1990) - age 22 .. (Drafted round 1 #7 overall in 2009) .. 8 games 0-3-3 points

Joe Colborne (Born Jan 30, 1990) - age 22 (Drafted round 1 # 16 overall in 2008) .. 8 games 0-3-3 points.

If the NHL started up today both Horak (4th in AHL scoring) and Bartschi (6th overall) would be recalled and playing with the Flames. Whereas Leafs prospects older and with more development likely wouldn't make the parent team at present based on their current play and development to date.

As Leaf fans we were hoping that our kids would be dominating the AHL this season like the flames youth have.


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11-03-2012, 12:47 PM
  #392
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These past two Abbotsford Heat verses Marlie games really shed a light on the prospective prospect pools of the parent NHL teams Calgary and Toronto.

Calgary's top forward prospects:

Sven Bartschi (Born Oct 5 1992) - age 20 .. (Drafted round 1 #13 overall in 2010) = 9 games 4-7-11 points

Roman Horak (Born May 21 1991) - age 21 ...(Drafted round 5 #127 overall in 2009) = 9 games 10 goals 1 assists 11 points.

Verses

Leafs top forward prospects:

Nazem Kadri (Born Oct 6, 1990) - age 22 .. (Drafted round 1 #7 overall in 2009) .. 8 games 0-3-3 points

Joe Colborne (Born Jan 30, 1990) - age 22 (Drafted round 1 # 16 overall in 2008) .. 8 games 0-3-3 points.

If the NHL started up today both Horak (4th in AHL scoring) and Bartschi (6th overall) would be recalled and playing with the Flames. Whereas Leafs prospects older and with more development likely wouldn't make the parent team at present based on their current play and development to date.
Meh, points aren't everything. Colborne was by far the best player for the Marlies last night. Not to mention the sample size is too small.

Don't get me wrong it would be a lot more easing if they were both producing more points, but I don't think it's time to worry just yet. Especially when the two players in question were in my opinion our two best players last night, and Colborne may have been the best player on either side besides Horak.

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11-03-2012, 12:58 PM
  #393
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Meh, points aren't everything. Colborne was by far the best player for the Marlies last night. Not to mention the sample size is too small.

Don't get me wrong it would be a lot more easing if they were both producing more points, but I don't think it's time to worry just yet. Especially when the two players in question were in my opinion our two best players last night, and Colborne may have been the best player on either side besides Horak.
So Flames goaltending future must look pretty good as well.

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11-03-2012, 01:20 PM
  #394
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So Flames goaltending future must look pretty good as well.
If you're taking 8 games as a serious sample size then yes. Colborne and Kadri have been playing fine they just haven't been putting up points. They've been pretty snake-bitten. Irving didn't even have a real good game last night.

I guess it's better to watch the games than become enamoured with the stat sheets.

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11-03-2012, 01:27 PM
  #395
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Let me guess Kadri was snake bitten last night? For a guy who knows this is THE key year, was bragging about his fitness and still exudes this unjustifiable cockiness, his abysmal production to date is embarrassing. Pick it up Naz, you should dominating out there.

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11-03-2012, 01:30 PM
  #396
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If you're taking 8 games as a serious sample size then yes. Colborne and Kadri have been playing fine they just haven't been putting up points. They've been pretty snake-bitten. Irving didn't even have a real good game last night.

I guess it's better to watch the games than become enamoured with the stat sheets.
You seem to be contradicting yourself here..

Colborne and Kadri played well, but were snake-bitten implies Irving was the cause of their displeasure by stopping their shots that were intended to be goals instead as he stopped 25 of 27 shots he faced, thus explaining the lack of production on the scoresheet.

Are you saying those were 25 easy saves among the 3 combined Irving faced from Kadri and Colborne directly?.

If a goalie has an easy night that usually implies the competition he faced made it so for him.

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11-03-2012, 01:32 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Of course 8 games doesn't define him, and don't take me for a Kadri hater in the least. I'd love for this guy to be a legit first liner in the Big League, more than happy if he becomes a 50-60 point guy. What you hope to see is progress, for a player to work hard and to be moving forward. Sure, it's early, but how much patience does he deserve? If he has less than 10 points after 20 games, should be be concerned? When can we start to justifiably criticize him?

I agree, there is a learning curve, but what do you say when the player is statistically getting worse?

10\11 .93ppg
11\12 .83ppg
12\13 .375ppg

Whatever the issue is for Kadri, Colborne... etc... they need to figure it out. At some point, if neither of them can break their current trends, it is their future.

At what point would you personally, say.. ok, now we have a problem?
Certainly need to shake it. Continuing on this trend isn't something anyone wants. They need to rise to the occasion as excuses only last so long.

It is strange though that the team as a whole tend to have some issues producing consistent offense. I mean, just look to veteran AHL All-Star Keith Aucoin. The guy has demolished the AHL for years, and hasn't looked nearly as dominant as his past numbers have suggested. Granted he isn't a rookie or someone many are interested in following, but you have to look at the group as a whole to gauge what the issue is. On paper, one would think this team wouldn't have any trouble producing. Where has the dominant team from game one gone? Who moved the puck so well and looked like they had been playing for years?

Personally, I'm more shocked at Aucoin so far than anything else. We expected Kadri to produce, and I think over time he will..but if a guy who's put up PPG seasons of 1.62, 1.35, 1.47 the last three years can't get it working..how do we expect everyone else to? Not trying to make excuses (they haven't played well enough, period) it just seems the issues aren't just one or two of our best prospects not producing..it's the entire group of 'key' forwards. Even another veteran like Mike Zigomanis, to me, has been a relative non-factor after being a really key player for them the last few seasons.

It's really strange. For the Marlies sake, I hope they start getting the bounces going their way. Hopefully this is the dark point in their season. They need to get a bit of momentum swinging in their direction. I thought they were on the right track last night, but then the wheels started to fall off.

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11-03-2012, 01:33 PM
  #398
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If you're taking 8 games as a serious sample size then yes. Colborne and Kadri have been playing fine they just haven't been putting up points. They've been pretty snake-bitten. Irving didn't even have a real good game last night.

I guess it's better to watch the games than become enamoured with the stat sheets.
Okay, so Marlies have 27 shots and Colborne has 1 assist and Kadri nothing but they played well but the goaltender for the Heat didn't have a real good game.

Doesn't that seem logical? Good = failure. Not good = success.

Obviously, the sample size is too small, but it isn't too small to say in this sample size some are getting their jobs done and some are coming up short.

Praise when worthy of praise, don't praise because someone was drafted in the first round and you want them to be worthy. Make them earn it. That continues to be a problem. It is always someone else being blamed. Coaches fault. Teammates' fault. GM's fault.

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You seem to be contradicting yourself here..

Colborne and Kadri played well, but were snake-bitten implies Irving was the cause of their displeasure by stopping their shots that were intended to be goals instead as he stopped 25 of 27 shots he faced, thus explaining the lack of production on the scoresheet.

Are you saying those were 25 easy saves among the 3 combined Irving faced from Kadri and Colborne directly?.

If a goalie has an easy night that usually implies the competition he faced made it so for him.
That's what I was thinking.

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11-03-2012, 01:36 PM
  #399
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You seem to be contradicting yourself here..

Colborne and Kadri played well, but were snake-bitten implies Irving was the cause of their displeasure by stopping their shots that were intended to be goals instead as he stopped 25 of 27 shots he faced.

Are you saying those were 25 easy saves among the 3 combined Irving faced from Kadri and Colborne directly?.

If a goalie has an easy night that implies the competition he faced made it so for him.
As a whole Irving had an ok game. The first goal he let in was from a horrendous scramble in front of his net. He was solid, but he wasn't mind blowing or anything, but he did make 2 or 3 pretty good saves. Pretty average game. Colborne was causing turnovers and playing very physically all night. His board play was simply excellent last night. He could of easily finished the night with 2 or 3 points. His line of him Kadri, and Kamarov was one of the few bright spots for the Marlies.

I never implied Irving had an easy night, he certainly never stood on his head. However he was solid and made a few timely saves.

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11-03-2012, 01:38 PM
  #400
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we need patience, its not like he is not getting chances, kadri is also not happy by his stats but he is playing well.
if it's 15 games without a goal, than I guess its time to worry, but right now, not yet, they will go in, we need patience

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