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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

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Old
11-10-2012, 06:21 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by bubba5 View Post
Who cares at this point. Let the stars stay in Russia and eat borscht and let the other bag groceries and let the NHL franchises go bankrupt.
But tell us how you really feel

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11-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You sure are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Are you implying the NHLPA deserves concessions? Because your "reasonable deal" contains big time concessions and/or the status quo. The NHL has consistently addressed the 50/50 and make-whole issues - the NHLPA has become the party of no as of late. Fehr has his mostly uneducated constituency brain-washed that revenue and profitability are linked. None of these guys have ever run a business. They make millions of dollars to play hockey and go home - and they will after this CBA is finished as well.
There is not a single gain for the players. Unless you start counting from the league's first offer which is preposterous. The players are losing on every front.

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11-10-2012, 06:49 PM
  #603
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Looks like a good chance NHL and NHLPA will meet Sunday. Nothing scheduled yet; but good discussion at lunch.
-michaelgrange 6:37pm via Twitter for iPhone

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11-10-2012, 07:15 PM
  #604
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There is not a single gain for the players. Unless you start counting from the league's first offer which is preposterous. The players are losing on every front.
Yea, I know. But your post seems to indicate that you feel theyre entitled to something. Theres going to be major concessions coming out of the players' pot no matter how this ends. No matter how you feel about it, thats just the way it is.

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11-10-2012, 07:18 PM
  #605
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Need help:

If I bought 4 tix for a Ranger game in MSG for $1,000 face last year, were the players indirectly receiving $570 of the proceeds?

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11-10-2012, 07:46 PM
  #606
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I'm to the point where I hope the league plays hardball and cancels it all next week and says "See ya next October Don."

This way max damage is done to both sides.

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11-10-2012, 07:58 PM
  #607
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I'm to the point where I hope the league plays hardball and cancels it all next week and says "See ya next October Don."

This way max damage is done to both sides.
That puts you on the record hoping they flush the best chance we've had at the cup since 94.

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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
If he were actually doing that I'd agree. But at this point he's gotten them to give up a third of the season or more (33% paycut) to avoid a 12.3% paycut.

It's an ego battle. Him (and presumably the PA) care more about sticking it to Bettman than the actual financial results. For his part Bettman is to blame for antagonizing the players to this point.
They've already agreed to 50-50. Why the hell should the owners need the players to make more concessions on top of that? Sounds like the league is playing hardball on the make whole provision and on contract rights. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The owners don't respect the union and are trying to break it. Fehr has to force the owners to accept the union as a legitimate partner. Otherwise we're just going to keep seeing labor stoppages.


Last edited by Zil: 11-10-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 08:18 PM
  #608
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That puts you on the record hoping they flush the best chance we've had at the cup since 94.



They've already agreed to 50-50. Why the hell should the owners need the players to make more concessions on top of that? Sounds like the league is playing hardball on the make whole provision and on contract rights. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The owners don't respect the union and are trying to break it. Fehr has to force the owners to accept the union as a legitimate partner. Otherwise we're just going to keep seeing labor stoppages.
DON'T I KNOW IT!!!

I hate this feeling. In '04 I didn't care because we sucked!!! This hurts sooooo much more because we have a team. It's why I can't stand it. Losing a year off hank's career is abhorid.

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11-10-2012, 10:22 PM
  #609
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DON'T I KNOW IT!!!

I hate this feeling. In '04 I didn't care because we sucked!!! This hurts sooooo much more because we have a team. It's why I can't stand it. Losing a year off hank's career is abhorid.
So....why are you hoping for it?

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11-10-2012, 10:55 PM
  #610
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So....why are you hoping for it?
There's a big part of me that wants to see both sides get (boned in the arse). They think the increased revenue ofthe past can be counted on for the future. 3.2 billion blah blah blah. I'd love to see this end and have that # shrink to 1.2. The 57/43 that was fought over shrunk to the point where the 43% would have been Better for the owners at 3.2 than the 50/50 that they have after YET ANOTHER LOCK-OUT. The revenue increase the players are so counting on dries up to the point where their salaries drop year after year after year for the next 10 as soccer takes over as #4.

But the NYR win the cup 3 out of 4 seasons in a row. :-)

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11-10-2012, 11:10 PM
  #611
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There's a big part of me that wants to see both sides get (boned in the arse). They think the increased revenue ofthe past can be counted on for the future. 3.2 billion blah blah blah. I'd love to see this end and have that # shrink to 1.2. The 57/43 that was fought over shrunk to the point where the 43% would have been Better for the owners at 3.2 than the 50/50 that they have after YET ANOTHER LOCK-OUT. The revenue increase the players are so counting on dries up to the point where their salaries drop year after year after year for the next 10 as soccer takes over as #4.

But the NYR win the cup 3 out of 4 seasons in a row. :-)
Just get a couple hundred thousand people to stop going to the games and paying for 9$ beers. Thats all it'll take.

Best case scenario is watching the Rangers win the cup on TV in June as far as Im concerned.

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11-11-2012, 01:44 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea, I know. But your post seems to indicate that you feel theyre entitled to something. Theres going to be major concessions coming out of the players' pot no matter how this ends. No matter how you feel about it, thats just the way it is.
Not sure where entitlement comes in if they lose everywhere. It just stands to reason that a fair deal ends this the quickest. Yeah I lean towards pro player. But I want some hockey and the league has been the more unreasonable party. And just "caving in" isn't a suitable answer for me when it comes to getting hockey back.

And for the record, my displeasure with the league is partly rooted in my belief that none of their initiatives will solve any problems long term. One and quarter seasons lost so far without a viable solution to the basic issue of the NHL.

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11-11-2012, 06:08 AM
  #613
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this is a slow execution of a golden-egg-laying goose. so dumb. if this isnt settled soon, the season's probably done or at best, we're looking at a half-a-season. and many people just arent gonna be interested.

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11-11-2012, 08:14 AM
  #614
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Its hard to copy articles on my phone but per slapshots by brooks, the players did not demand to be paid this year the full season share despite a shortened season. They projected the season with 5% growth but expect a prorated payment.

There was a lot of anger over that issue on friday.

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11-11-2012, 08:22 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
So....why are you hoping for it?
Because with our luck the rangers some how win the cup this year with a BS season like the Devils did in 95 winning a half a cup! A 65 game season is ok but if they scamble to play 45 or so like they did 1995 then forget it.

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11-11-2012, 08:43 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Not sure where entitlement comes in if they lose everywhere. It just stands to reason that a fair deal ends this the quickest. Yeah I lean towards pro player. But I want some hockey and the league has been the more unreasonable party. And just "caving in" isn't a suitable answer for me when it comes to getting hockey back.

And for the record, my displeasure with the league is partly rooted in my belief that none of their initiatives will solve any problems long term. One and quarter seasons lost so far without a viable solution to the basic issue of the NHL.
Lean pro player? You've been overtly pro player throughout this thing, with no real reason why other than you seem to think this whole thing is unfair. Lets take a look at the issues and see, in my opinion of course, what constitutes "fair."

1. HRR split - the players getting 57% is ridiculous, can we at least agree on that? Both sides know it needs to get to 50/50, but the question is when...which is inextricably tied to:

2. The Make-Whole issue - Here is where the players have a point. They should be paid in full for current contracts -- Im with the players here, but again, they dont run the business, they dont control the cash flow, and this issue will be settled on the owners timeline whether is fair or not.

3. Contract Terms - The dummy/severely front-loaded contracts need to go. Period. I can't imagine the owners have a hard line on either a # of maximum years and/or AAV of contracts with less than a 5% variance year over year. But something needs to be done here. This could be settled pretty quickly if the first 2 things are dealt with.

4. Free agency - Again, I think this could be settled quickly if #'s 1 and 2 get done. Do you honestly think the owners would die on a hill in the name of pushing back the 7/27 provision?

I can agree with you in the frustration over the lack of viable long-term solutions for the future of the league. Things like contraction and/or relocation and weeding out stupid/incompetent owners isnt going to happen overnight. In fact, it probably wont happen at all. The Board of Governor's attention will shift very quickly to extracting every single penny out of returning fans once this thing is over. Thats just the way the world works.

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11-11-2012, 08:48 AM
  #617
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http://m.nypost.com/f/mobile/sports/...fgPLGAnT5fPrJN

For this from an individual in the room for Friday’s negotiating sessions and confirmed word-for-word by Slap Shots by a source across the aisle:

“Near the end of the meeting, Don [Fehr] said to Gary [Bettman]: ‘Let me get this straight. Even if the players agree to every single component of the league’s economic plan, we still don’t have a deal unless we also agree to every one of your proposed changes to player contract rights?’ ”

To which, both of our sources reported, “Gary said: ‘Yes.’”

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11-11-2012, 08:50 AM
  #618
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Because with our luck the rangers some how win the cup this year with a BS season like the Devils did in 95 winning a half a cup! A 65 game season is ok but if they scamble to play 45 or so like they did 1995 then forget it.
You wouldnt be cheering in the Canyon of Heroes if they won in a 45 game season as opposed to a 65 game season?? Something tells me thats a lie.

And you know what really bothers me? Posts that start with "well, with the Rangers luck...." Its on par with "Same ol' Jets!" This alternate reality where those franchises are cursed or forever snakebitten to some degree.

The truth is both of those franchises havent been run at a championship caliber for the better part of several decades. Theres a reason those 2 teams have 2 championships in the last 125 seasons or so, and it ain't bad luck.

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11-11-2012, 09:14 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Lean pro player? You've been overtly pro player throughout this thing, with no real reason why other than you seem to think this whole thing is unfair. Lets take a look at the issues and see, in my opinion of course, what constitutes "fair."

1. HRR split - the players getting 57% is ridiculous, can we at least agree on that? Both sides know it needs to get to 50/50, but the question is when...which is inextricably tied to:

2. The Make-Whole issue - Here is where the players have a point. They should be paid in full for current contracts -- Im with the players here, but again, they dont run the business, they dont control the cash flow, and this issue will be settled on the owners timeline whether is fair or not.

3. Contract Terms - The dummy/severely front-loaded contracts need to go. Period. I can't imagine the owners have a hard line on either a # of maximum years and/or AAV of contracts with less than a 5% variance year over year. But something needs to be done here. This could be settled pretty quickly if the first 2 things are dealt with.

4. Free agency - Again, I think this could be settled quickly if #'s 1 and 2 get done. Do you honestly think the owners would die on a hill in the name of pushing back the 7/27 provision?

I can agree with you in the frustration over the lack of viable long-term solutions for the future of the league. Things like contraction and/or relocation and weeding out stupid/incompetent owners isnt going to happen overnight. In fact, it probably wont happen at all. The Board of Governor's attention will shift very quickly to extracting every single penny out of returning fans once this thing is over. Thats just the way the world works.
Maybe I'm not clear. I don't think the pa should hold out on every issue and come to reality kicking and screaming. I think this is an owner created problem (their cba, they invented the cap circ deals, they pay rfas insane money, they dictate hockey market locations). Yes, owners take the risks but players are the product. 50% is the current market for sports, like 57% was for hockey and NBA in 2004.

My frustration isn't over player loses. The deal we'll see has been proposed here since June. We all see it. 50%, contract term limit, 5% variance, some escrow protector. I'm pissed over Bettman milking every last inch at the cost of games. I'm pissed he ****ed the cba up twice and punishes players yet again. I'm pissed the money grab here won't help small markets in 4 years. I'm pissed they cost us a year of hockey for a "terrible" cba and then blame the players again. I'm sick of seeing Leopold with his sob story on contracts.

Bettman is going for a crushing win on every front. 5 years on contracts? Up till this week maybe, immediate drops. AHL cap money? He has to soften his stance but he is still holding firm on all the issues. "The league can dictate the terms, its their money". No, actually they can't. If they could, this would be over. Instead they make the same misjudgement on the PA and we are missing hockey.

Look, i think the player need to and are/will give on the issues. It's hard to give and give and get no compromise along the way. But his isn't a fix, this isn't how you bargain, and you don't allow a confirmed failure to dictate the NWO for the third time.

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11-11-2012, 09:20 AM
  #620
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly says he expects bargaining with the NHLPA to resume sometime Sunday afternoon...

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11-11-2012, 09:22 AM
  #621
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The NHL and NHLPA are meeting this afternoon.

Quote:
NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly says he expects bargaining with the NHLPA to resume sometime Sunday afternoon...
https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/...30308818554881

Cooler heads prevailed. Fehr doesn't let the owners tactics bother him.

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11-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #622
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Whatever the case, I admit one thing: I underestimated how important some of these issues were to individual players. I believed that if the NHL came at the players with a legitimate "make-whole" offer, the rest of this would fall into place.
Quote:
As one source said Saturday: "We're accepting 50/50. Our slice of the pie is going to get smaller. Why should it matter to the NHL how that money is divided?"

The answer to that question is the league has had enough with the Suter/Parise front-loaded contracts. That's why it's my belief that "the five per-cent rule" is going to be the NHL's cornerstone "want," but that opinion doesn't do anyone any good until this discussion begins.

There is one good reason for the majority of the NHLPA to agree with the NHL on this. While those front-loaded deals are cap-friendly for the teams, they are murder on player escrow.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...ay-update.html

LeBrun wrote the same thing a few days ago. The NHL will get their 50-50 split and restrictions on contracts. What more do they want? Stop being greedy.

Brooks cleared up what he reported on Friday night

Quote:
Allow me to apologize for passing along misinformation on my @NYP_Brooksie Twitter account on Friday that the NHLPA had proposed the players be paid their full salaries for this season. Not so.

There was much confusion into the night on this one, but the true story is the union was basing its revenue projections off a hypothetical full 2012-13 and not a hard-dollars share for this year. Indeed, the PA expects pay to be prorated for this season.

I choose to believe that my original sources made a mistake and were not intentionally attempting to deceive, but the mistake was mine in forwarding the reports absent confirmation.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...fgPLGAnT5fPrJN

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11-11-2012, 09:40 AM
  #623
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Because with our luck the rangers some how win the cup this year with a BS season like the Devils did in 95 winning a half a cup! A 65 game season is ok but if they scamble to play 45 or so like they did 1995 then forget it.
That sounds a little extreme. I for one wouldn,t mind a 50 game season as long as we got an agreement. Looking at the schedule the Rangers on December 1st would have 33 home games and 28 road games left so the schedule would have to be reconfigured. I think this will get done and the NHL will have a season with about 50 games. Labor negotiations on this scale do not get settled quickly.

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11-11-2012, 10:34 AM
  #624
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"We've had enough of these front loaded contracts!" God, I hope Leipold was the one that delivered that statement. Look at the negotiation committee. Was handing out front loaded contracts a prerequisite for getting on that committee? Kiprusoff, suter, parise, savard. Sather is the only GM to use the rules in his favor and doesn't blow his cap on rfas. He is marginalized amongst gms. Dolan was huge with the NBA lockout, exiled by Bettman. NHL had to get their house in order.

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11-11-2012, 10:47 AM
  #625
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A source confirmed to ESPNNewYork.com that the league's latest offer on the "make whole" provision to honor existing contracts includes $211 million to be paid out over the first two years of the deal.

The NHLPA feels it is owed much more, however. An additional source told ESPNNewYork.com that the union is seeking $590 million.

The two sides remain far apart on player rights and contracting issues as well, a source confirmed to ESPNNewYork.com.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/86...bill-daly-says

$211M vs $590M. $400M is the splitting the difference.

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