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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

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Old
11-11-2012, 01:55 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
BRF, the blame on the last CBA is pretty much irrelevant going forward. But at the same time, this is something they really, really wanted. Then they say that its broken. Then they say they still want it, but it needs to change to get the smaller teams above water. They claw money back, but anyone can see that in 3-4 years the small teams are bleeding again.

Why don't the owners work towards a viable system? They are essentially making the rich teams richer and the small teams alive to fill the schedule out. The owners cooked the books before. Who's to say it is as bad as they claim. The players are saying if you want to prop up a broken system, why does it come out of our end? Why won't you even discuss new ideas? And they are still conceding despite the issues.

Blaming the players for these deals... I don't know. Sather grinds RFAs into submission. He gave one moderately back diving contract. And he has a prime contender. Owners invented the deals and gave them out to dodge cap hits. The players weren't pulling that cart, and a simple "no" to RFAs like Richards and Carter pretty much ends that issue. Where's their leverage to force the circumvention. No, thats all on Holmgren. Pronger? He negotiated years he never intended to play? Seguin was gonna go to the KHL if uberhawk Sinden didn't break the bank? On the verge of more stringent RFA/UFA rules and Sinden rushed to get Seguin's monster deal? This stuff just doesn't add up. Yeah, things need to get fixed, but to the extent owners are demanding? Back off the line already, its so over the top and that is why we are losing games. A moderate reform would address the issues, get some traction and start the season.
Wait - what? You just supported my point. Snider and Jacobs own profitable teams. Their GMs worked the old system to get good players locked in at low relative cap hits by giving them huge, long-term deals.

(Now, I'll concede the fact that Jacobs is among the most vocal and hawkish of the owners is despicable and offensive, but that doesn't change the reality of the economics and the effects it produces.)

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Old
11-11-2012, 01:56 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Not really getting the Bettman hate. Guess the people need SOMETHING to ***** at.

I hate Fehr a whole lot more than Bettman, personally
The hate comes from his methods. Or method, I should say... since he has one play in his playbook. It starts and ends with LOCKOUT.

I hate them both but Bettman uses LOCKOUT as his strategy & as his policy, not as a last resort and that is disgusting.

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:04 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Not really getting the Bettman hate. Guess the people need SOMETHING to ***** at.

I hate Fehr a whole lot more than Bettman, personally


I guess it depends on who's side your favoring. I hate both, but Bettman is just a moron. He's no hockey guy, he's a lawyer. From all accounts he is more concerned with screwing the PA as much as he can despite if there is a season or not, he's done it once already. I'll never get over how he thinks is ok and fair to tell the players that they won't be getting what their signed contract, from the league and team says. Nobody, either making $10 an hour or 10 million a year would ever agree on that, nor should they.

Bill Daly on the other hand is who should be the commissioner. Guy is a hockey guy, interacts with the fans, cares about the sport. If he was running the show they would be playing hockey right now.

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11-11-2012, 02:09 PM
  #654
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@RenLavoieRDS: NHL CBA talks done for the day.


A whole 90 minutes.....


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Old
11-11-2012, 02:12 PM
  #655
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They're meeting every single day and not getting a thing accomplished.

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:19 PM
  #656
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forget what I said earlier, I lost the feeling I had before...

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11-11-2012, 02:30 PM
  #657
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Sigh..


What a complete joke of a league.

I'm done wasting my time with hope, just cancel the damn season already so I can move on. Enough with the PR show.

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:30 PM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canon1990 View Post
@RenLavoieRDS: NHL CBA talks done for the day.


A whole 90 minutes.....

Nothing to really talk about. They're just going through the motions

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:32 PM
  #659
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Ouch, bad news...

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:33 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Nothing to really talk about. They're just going through the motions
per twitter reports from Katie Strang and Renaud Lavoie they were talking about contracting rights....if the owners could just police themselves we wouldn't be in this problem or if there was no salaray cap you would not see this problem

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11-11-2012, 02:38 PM
  #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
per twitter reports from Katie Strang and Renaud Lavoie they were talking about contracting rights....if the owners could just police themselves we wouldn't be in this problem or if there was no salaray cap you would not see this problem
if the owners policed themselves it would be collusion. last time i checked that's illegal.

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11-11-2012, 02:41 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
if the owners policed themselves it would be collusion. last time i checked that's illegal.
i'm not a lawyer or businessman so i claim negligence on my last comments...lol

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11-11-2012, 03:04 PM
  #663
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
per twitter reports from Katie Strang and Renaud Lavoie they were talking about contracting rights....if the owners could just police themselves we wouldn't be in this problem or if there was no salaray cap you would not see this problem
Go back and read Brooklyn Ranger Fan's post about economic balance in the league. There will be no "policing" so long as certain clubs have bigger economic resources. No salary cap would just make it worse.

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:05 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by Canon1990 View Post
I guess it depends on who's side your favoring. I hate both, but Bettman is just a moron. He's no hockey guy, he's a lawyer.
As opposed to Donald Fehr who is a non-lawyer who has deep hockey roots?

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:12 PM
  #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Go back and read Brooklyn Ranger Fan's post about economic balance in the league. There will be no "policing" so long as certain clubs have bigger economic resources. No salary cap would just make it worse.
the reason for the contracting discussions is because of cap circumvention and retirement contracts that are heavily backloaded to make it fit under the cap. In my opinion, no salary cap, no contract discussions right now

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11-11-2012, 03:16 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
the reason for the contracting discussions is because of cap circumvention and retirement contracts that are heavily backloaded to make it fit under the cap. In my opinion, no salary cap, no contract discussions right now
No salary cap = no season right now. So, pick your poison there.

And those retirement contracts are front-loaded w/ cash. Its an easy solution. Either limit contract terms or put in a rule that the annual cap hit/salary cant deviate from 5% from year to year.

This is simple, and something that needs to change in my opinion. Even the players would agree with that, I would think.

I find it scary they aren't talking about the HRR split and the make-whole issue every second of these negotiations.

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:26 PM
  #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
No salary cap = no season right now. So, pick your poison there.

And those retirement contracts are front-loaded w/ cash. Its an easy solution. Either limit contract terms or put in a rule that the annual cap hit/salary cant deviate from 5% from year to year.

This is simple, and something that needs to change in my opinion. Even the players would agree with that, I would think.

I find it scary they aren't talking about the HRR split and the make-whole issue every second of these negotiations.
sorry i meant frontloaded not backloaded lol. I like the 5% from yr to yr idea. This is almost the last hurdle (contracting issues). The HRR split is agreed at 50/50, the make whole is almost all settled (almost). They are close, I really think we will have a December start at the latest

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11-11-2012, 03:29 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
sorry i meant frontloaded not backloaded lol. I like the 5% from yr to yr idea. This is almost the last hurdle (contracting issues). The HRR split is agreed at 50/50, the make whole is almost all settled (almost). They are close, I really think we will have a December start at the latest
I appreciate your optimism, but the bolded just simply isnt true, unfortunately.

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:42 PM
  #669
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Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange
Fehr -- #nHL expects players to accept owners proposal 'to the comma'

Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Bill Daly:"PA give us 17 issues on players contract last week. We have a deal, or made progress on 14 of them.

NHL is exposing Fehr's spin very well

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:43 PM
  #670
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Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Meeting lasted less than an hour. NHL completely unwilling to budge on any player contracting issues, according to Don Fehr

Given NHL's stance on contracting issues, Fehr said he doesn't currently "see a path to an agreement"

According to Fehr, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman said during meeting that "we're past the point of give-and-take."

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:49 PM
  #671
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Wait - what? You just supported my point. Snider and Jacobs own profitable teams. Their GMs worked the old system to get good players locked in at low relative cap hits by giving them huge, long-term deals.

(Now, I'll concede the fact that Jacobs is among the most vocal and hawkish of the owners is despicable and offensive, but that doesn't change the reality of the economics and the effects it produces.)
Well, yes. On the point that owners have more culpability for the current state, yes Snider and Jacobs created the problem. i thought you were implying players were just as bad when came to cap circumventing.

Look, I am pushing for reform. But reel it in. Increase the 5 year limit, let 27/7 go, 5 variance. We essentially agree. I maintain that the owners made their bed, they ought to be much more cooperative rather than bullheaded and greedy.

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11-11-2012, 03:49 PM
  #672
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...or the league is engaging in spin of its own

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:00 PM
  #673
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Love everyone with the conspiracy theories and side choosing. It's a negotiation. Both sides are being stubborn to get the best out of the deal for their respective side.

Not hard to figure out. This will really get interesting if we lose the season though.

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11-11-2012, 04:02 PM
  #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Not really getting the Bettman hate. Guess the people need SOMETHING to ***** at.

I hate Fehr a whole lot more than Bettman, personally
Under Bettman the league over expanded, probably the single biggest reason for salary inflation (supply/demand).

He pushed the league into weaker markets hedging on a big national tv deal. 15 years later he got one, the smallest of the big 4. His pet, and it hurt more than helped.

3 lockouts. Only commish to lose a full season to labour dispute.

The last cba was his brainchild. By his own admission it doesn't work. We lost the year to implement that deal.

I mean, supporters point to the positives, but that makes the lockouts even more frustrating.

You would be hard pressed to find a solid thing he has done that hasn't failed or created a problem in another area.

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:35 PM
  #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange
Fehr -- #nHL expects players to accept owners proposal 'to the comma'

Renaud Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Bill Daly:"PA give us 17 issues on players contract last week. We have a deal, or made progress on 14 of them.

NHL is exposing Fehr's spin very well
The same NHL which accused Fehr of not informing the players about their offer. That was the biggest crock of BS since Gary said the cap would see lower and affordable ticket prices.

Do you what those issues were? Of course you don't.

Quote:
Daly said NHL did give on 14 of 17 issues -- things like minimum salaries; play off pool; waiver rules. Not make or break issues tho.
https://twitter.com/michaelgrange/st...32786025201667

Those issues don't involve free agency,contract structure,arbitration and the entry level system. The players made gains in free agency and arbitration in the last CBA. The players gave the owners a cheaper entry level system. Now the NHL wants to take back those gains in free agency and arbitration. They want to take away a year in ELCs. 1 year give backs across the board in all three areas PLUS give the NHL contract restrictions. These are the main issues.

The NHL is spinning. The NHL is a joke.

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