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high scoring winger vs two way 55-60 point centreman

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:28 PM
  #51
416Leafer
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
The only problem I have with this comparison is the age difference. Kessel is still potentially looking at improvement and Backes is almost certainly in the prime of his career. Can we use guys of similar age? Say Backes and Kovalchuk?
Well we're not really talking about potential. Just about what they contributed last year.

If you want to go for similar age and include potential, you could do Toews vs Kessel... But Toews is a bit more than a 60 point player. Maybe Couture? But he's not exactly a Selke type of guy, just a pretty solid two-way guy.

Kovalchuks a bad example because he's typically a bit better offensively than a 40-40 winger, and he's also becoming pretty solid defensively. So then the comparison is actually getting into a two-way 90 point winger vs a two-way 60 point centre.

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11-04-2012, 08:36 PM
  #52
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So you're basically asking who has the most value between Plekanec or Kessel/Patrick Kane?

Even as a Habs fan, I can see that the winger is definitely more valuable.

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11-04-2012, 08:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
40-40 isn't Kane or Kessel, it's Kovalchuk and Gaborik.

IF you had an all-around 30/30 center you'd be describing someone like Toews
Toews is 40-40, if we're going by per-82.

The thing not being considered in this thread is the fact that most centers can easily be converted to play the wing. Wingers generally can't be converted to center easily. A 60-point two-way center can play a more offensive style if converted to the wing, and perhaps score 70-80 points. A good example is Valtteri Filppula; his production increased a great deal when he as moved to the wing last season and allowed to play a more aggressive offensive game. The center is probably more valuable because he's more versatile. A 40-40 winger isn't a huge upgrade offensively over a 30-30 center in a tight game/series, but the assumed defensive difference suggested in this thread could definitely be the game breaker. Not to mention faceoff abilities; which means puck control.

More centers/capable faceoff men and your team is more likely to control the puck. Control the puck and you are less likely to be scored on, and more likely to score.

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11-04-2012, 09:02 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Toews is 40-40, if we're going by per-82.

The thing not being considered in this thread is the fact that most centers can easily be converted to play the wing. Wingers generally can't be converted to center easily. A 60-point two-way center can play a more offensive style if converted to the wing, and perhaps score 70-80 points. A good example is Valtteri Filppula; his production increased a great deal when he as moved to the wing last season and allowed to play a more aggressive offensive game. The center is probably more valuable because he's more versatile. A 40-40 winger isn't a huge upgrade offensively over a 30-30 center in a tight game/series, but the assumed defensive difference suggested in this thread could definitely be the game breaker. Not to mention faceoff abilities; which means puck control.

More centers/capable faceoff men and your team is more likely to control the puck. Control the puck and you are less likely to be scored on, and more likely to score.
Toews is not 40-40. He has never reached 40 goals.

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11-04-2012, 09:05 PM
  #55
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How high-scoring are we talking? If it's a 90+ winger, then INEC. If it's a 70-80 vs. 55-60, then I take the all-around center every day of the week.

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11-04-2012, 09:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Toews is 40-40, if we're going by per-82.

The thing not being considered in this thread is the fact that most centers can easily be converted to play the wing. Wingers generally can't be converted to center easily. A 60-point two-way center can play a more offensive style if converted to the wing, and perhaps score 70-80 points. A good example is Valtteri Filppula; his production increased a great deal when he as moved to the wing last season and allowed to play a more aggressive offensive game. The center is probably more valuable because he's more versatile. A 40-40 winger isn't a huge upgrade offensively over a 30-30 center in a tight game/series, but the assumed defensive difference suggested in this thread could definitely be the game breaker. Not to mention faceoff abilities; which means puck control.

More centers/capable faceoff men and your team is more likely to control the puck. Control the puck and you are less likely to be scored on, and more likely to score.
How is this a guarantee? This seems like a ridiculous assumption to me.

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11-04-2012, 09:22 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
40-40 isn't Kane or Kessel, it's Kovalchuk and Gaborik.

IF you had an all-around 30/30 center you'd be describing someone like Toews, there's very few centers who routinely put up 30 goals period, much less with stellar defensive play. Which makes this a pretty easy call for the center IMO.

It would be harder to answer if the center was a 20-40 guy.
I don't think the idea of the thread is about how many goals the player scores, it about choosing players on the opposite end of the spectrum. i.e. Kessel or Bergeron, Kane or Backes.

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Old
11-04-2012, 09:50 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
I don't think the idea of the thread is about how many goals the player scores, it about choosing players on the opposite end of the spectrum. i.e. Kessel or Bergeron, Kane or Backes.
Except how many goals the player scores is essential to the discussion.

The very notion of trying to compare an offensive center with selke offense to a slightly better offensive winger with no defense is inherently flawed/bias and doesn't even really exist in the NHL.

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11-04-2012, 11:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
I don't think the idea of the thread is about how many goals the player scores, it about choosing players on the opposite end of the spectrum. i.e. Kessel or Bergeron, Kane or Backes.
The OP stated compare a 40-40 defensible irresponsible wing with a 30-30 all around center. I pointed out a 30 goal scoring center WAS high scoring, and made the point that if the goal scoring was only 10 goals you take the center - that's not a "game-breaking" difference. If the goal scorer is 50-30 or if the center is 20-40 it makes a much bigger difference and a much harder question. The OP didn't ask the question you're discussing, he asked the one I answered.

And for whoever was saying Kovalchuk isn't a 40-40 guy, he has 406 goals and 376 assists over 10 seasons - that's as close as it gets to 40-40. Toews is about 25-35 based on actual yearly performance, if he can't stay healthy that should play into it IMO, and as he's never gotten past 34 in a full season he doesn't get to pretend to be a 40 goal guy on his partial seasons. Mike Richards is probably a reasonable center for this comparison - he's very good defensibly, varies between 20-40 and 30-30, but could be better in the face off circle. Plekanec is a 20-40 guy, not a 30-30 guy. Datsyuk doesn't belong in this conversation - he scores far too many points.

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Old
11-05-2012, 07:50 AM
  #60
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Winger of course. Scorers always hold more value. Anybody saying center is clueless.

A very good two way center can be developed. Being a gifted scorer comes naturally and can't be coached into a guy. It's as simple as that.


Last edited by stokes84: 11-05-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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Old
11-05-2012, 07:54 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Winger of course. Scorers always hold more value. Anybody saying center is clueless.
Definitely! Look at all those wingers who have won the Conn Smythe over the years... especially... considering... there are twice as many wingers as their are centres on a team...

Oh wait, no, only one winger has won the Conn Smythe in the last 30 years, and that wasn't a super skilled sleek winger, it was Claude Lemieux.

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Old
11-05-2012, 07:56 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Depends on team need.
/thread
bingo... too many variables.

roster
coach
playing style

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11-05-2012, 08:50 AM
  #63
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Center.

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11-05-2012, 09:41 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupermanPahlsson View Post
How high-scoring are we talking? If it's a 90+ winger, then INEC. If it's a 70-80 vs. 55-60, then I take the all-around center every day of the week.
The OP said it:

A 30-30 2way centre vs a 40-40 offensive winger.

So many variables and we're not even talking about teams needs.

Is the 2 way centre playing with duds on the wing? Is he playing 2nd line PP? What system is he playing in?

I would take the centre.

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11-05-2012, 09:46 AM
  #65
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This is completely subjective based on team needs. In a vacuum, you go with the high scoring winger though.

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11-05-2012, 11:06 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by PuqTalk View Post
This is completely subjective based on team needs. In a vacuum, you go with the high scoring winger though.
If both players had to play against each other every minute of every game, id take the center any day of the week.

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11-05-2012, 11:09 AM
  #67
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As usual, it depends on team needs. As a Nashville fan I would rather have the winger.

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11-05-2012, 11:20 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
you need both... the leafs or hawks definitely wouldn't trade kessel or patrick kane for say J. Staal or Zajac
Would thfy trade them for Kesler or Richards?

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11-05-2012, 11:21 AM
  #69
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It REALLY depends on the centre, "2 way centre who puts up roughly 60 points" doesn't really tell us enough. Is it someone like Bergeron/Backes/M Koivu, or someone like Zajac/Stepan/Grabo? Guys like Bergeron/Backes/Koivu are right there value wise with Kessel/Kane (if you ignore age/contracts), but guys like Zajac/Stepan/Grabo are not.

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11-05-2012, 11:22 AM
  #70
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i think it depends on the playoffs, wingers aren't that effective than centers since they are taller and better scoring, wingers are more for like for rebound goals, cross ice goals. centers can shoot effectively more than wingers.

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11-05-2012, 12:16 PM
  #71
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Centers ~30 goals / 60 points:
Pavelski
Couture
Carter
J.Staal
vs
~40 goals / 80 points:
Neal
Kovalchuk
Kessel
Gaborik

Winger everyday.

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11-05-2012, 12:30 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
Centers ~30 goals / 60 points:
Pavelski
Couture
Carter
J.Staal
vs
~40 goals / 80 points:
Neal
Kovalchuk
Kessel
Gaborik

Winger everyday.
Kesler vs Kessel?
Brad Richards vs Neal?

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Old
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
  #73
LSnow
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Originally Posted by EddieAVS View Post
Kesler vs Kessel?
Brad Richards vs Neal?
But both are normally 70+ centers.

Filppula vs Perry?

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Old
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
  #74
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I'd rather take a Patrice Bergeron over a Phil Kessel. This is just one example of course.

Yes the winger scores more, but how many goals over the course of a season does the number 2 C prevent? How many FO did he win that resulted in goals he did not assist on? etc.

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11-05-2012, 12:38 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
I'd rather take a Patrice Bergeron over a Phil Kessel. This is just one example of course.

Yes the winger scores more, but how many goals over the course of a season does the number 2 C prevent? How many FO did he win that resulted in goals he did not assist on? etc.
Just stop it with your logical, well thought-out reasoning...it has no place here.

The bottom line is 80>60.

End of story.


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