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Brunner & Z tearing up the NLA

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01-10-2013, 07:02 PM
  #76
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One reason Brunner may be on the roster and Nyquist isn't may have nothing to do with Babcock. Holland is trying to manage this team by not losing any players if he doesn't have to. They have a full roster with no spots open so having Nyquist down manages assets. It allows the team not to have to move or waive players like Mursak and Emmerton. I would much rather have both guys on the roster and I'm sure Nyquist would start earning more ice time but I would rather see him tearing up GR on the top line then not playing.

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01-10-2013, 07:07 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
No I'm not saying what he is doing is temendously wrong. What I'm saying is that this is kind of different than Babcock's normal philosophy in which seniority IS a main factor.
Would you rather have Bert and Cleary in the top6 again?

I've wanted Nyquist up as much as anyone, but it's not going to happen. We have too many vets. Maybe the Wings did it because they expected the short season and felt more comfortable with it, who knows, but we'll have to live with it.

Hopefully, we see some movement over the summer. As it's going, Nyquist and Tatar will both be ready for next season and we still won't have gotten a good look at Mursak in Detroit.

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01-10-2013, 07:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
So, Babcock should base his lines on seniority with the team? I think Nyquist is going to be a very good hockey player, but if Babcock thinks Brunner is a better fit or better hockey player than Nyquist then he should get more IT. Keep in mind Brunner was a free agent, he's not some rookie that we just drafted and is getting special treatment over Nyquist.
Basing lineup decisions strictly on seniority seems to be a bad idea to me as well. If Brunner is a better fit than Gus to start with Datsyuk and Hank, he should get the nod. Maybe Babcock sees him as more of a finisher at this point than Nyquist (those 2 playmakers need a sniper), and possibly him being a RH shot helps too (thank God it's not Sammy, but really it's only a matter of time before he's getting top line minutes). I've been on board all along for Gus to get top 6 mins in Detroit, so I'm fine with him getting 2nd line minutes. I don't think he should feel slighted if Brunner is given the spot with D and Z to start the season. Gus has been in the organization long enough to know that he just needs to perform and/or become one of Babcock's favorites, and then he's guaranteed all the minutes he can handle

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Brunner has proved nothing. He scored some points overseas. And he's getting a shot on a line with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Jesus Christ. If you don't see that as a gift....

Babcock is giving his "find" the best possible opportunity you can gave a guy in the NHL
Meanwhile guys who worked their way through the system and put up impressive points

I don't really care. Because I'm all for giving a guy a shot.

But if you're willing to take a shot like this with Brunner, why didn't we give more of a shot to Brunstrom and Leino and Mursak and everyone else?
Agree that those other guys probably should have had more of a chance to make an imprint on the team (especially Brunstrom IMO), but in the end, I don't think it will matter too much. Sure, Brunner is starting the season on the top line, but with Cleary, Sammy and Bert lurking on the roster, it's only a matter of time before the shiny new toy struggles for a game or 2 and is then demoted far down the lineup in favor of Babcock's boys. I'll be shocked if that doesn't happen.

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01-10-2013, 07:31 PM
  #79
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I'm leaning toward Brunner having a tough time of it. He might start well... especially with those lines... and given the fact that D-Z and Brunner are coming in in mid-season form and playing against a lot of guys who are rusty.

However, these guys have played a lot of games and now have a condensed schedule in front of them. Brunner has never played more than 50 games in a season

he's already played 33 and now has 48 games plus playoffs (hopefully) in front of him

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01-10-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by probertrules24 View Post
One reason Brunner may be on the roster and Nyquist isn't may have nothing to do with Babcock. Holland is trying to manage this team by not losing any players if he doesn't have to. They have a full roster with no spots open so having Nyquist down manages assets. It allows the team not to have to move or waive players like Mursak and Emmerton. I would much rather have both guys on the roster and I'm sure Nyquist would start earning more ice time but I would rather see him tearing up GR on the top line then not playing.
I agree. Holland doesn't want to lose guys.

But part of managing is making choices...not putting them off

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01-10-2013, 07:38 PM
  #81
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Who cares? Especially if it works out. Call it whatever you want, but the idea that this has to be like pee-wee hockey where everyone gets a 'chance' is silly.

I agree that Nyquist should have been in the lineup for a while now. I agree that he should start in the top 6 over Samuelsson or at very least in the top 9 over guys like Bertuzzi and Cleary. I don't think Holland or Babcock is doing this team any favors by not playing Nyquist right now, especially where we're at. But hey, the season hasn't even start, who knows what will happen.
I care.
Because it didn't work out with some guys because Babcock DIDN'T given them a chance.

I care because we've got a bottleneck of prospects (good ones) and I don't see them getting penciled in on line 1 or 2 anytime soon.

Also, nobody is suggesting that "everyone" get an opportunity.
But once you get a contract and you're on the team, why wouldn't you want to give a guy a chance to succeed?

It's one thing not to play Dallas Drake on your scoring line. But when you've got skilled guys playing odd minutes with goons and checkers, it doesn't make much sense.

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01-10-2013, 07:43 PM
  #82
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I care.
Because it didn't work out with some guys because Babcock DIDN'T given them a chance.

I care because we've got a bottleneck of prospects (good ones) and I don't see them getting penciled in on line 1 or 2 anytime soon.

Also, nobody is suggesting that "everyone" get an opportunity.
But once you get a contract and you're on the team, why wouldn't you want to give a guy a chance to succeed?

It's one thing not to play Dallas Drake on your scoring line. But when you've got skilled guys playing odd minutes with goons and checkers, it doesn't make much sense.

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01-10-2013, 07:49 PM
  #83
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Brunner is just the latest symptom of this bug the Wings have, that signing European league skill players who didn't get any NHL love as prospects is gonna unearth the next big thing. Leino, Brunnstrom, now Brunner. It didn't work with the first two but here we are again hyping Brunner like he's gonna be a 40 goal scorer.

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01-10-2013, 07:58 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Brunner is just the latest symptom of this bug the Wings have, that signing European league skill players who didn't get any NHL love as prospects is gonna unearth the next big thing. Leino, Brunnstrom, now Brunner. It didn't work with the first two but here we are again hyping Brunner like he's gonna be a 40 goal scorer.
I think the Wings and most fans are hoping more than hyping Brunner as a real scoring threat, and we're in that position b/c of the team's inability to either develop a bona fide goal scorer from within the organization, or land one via trade or FA. I honestly don't care where a consistent goal scoring forward comes from at this point- I just want one to play on Datsyuk's wing and finish the amazing scoring chances he creates. Personally, I'm hoping Brunner can be that kind of player but have no idea what to expect from the guy as he transitions to the NHL game. I do think there are worse lines for a goal scorer to start a career on than playing with Pavel and Hank

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01-10-2013, 08:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
I think the Wings and most fans are hoping more than hyping Brunner as a real scoring threat, and we're in that position b/c of the team's inability to either develop a bona fide goal scorer from within the organization, or land one via trade or FA. I honestly don't care where a consistent goal scoring forward comes from at this point- I just want one to play on Datsyuk's wing and finish the amazing scoring chances he creates. Personally, I'm hoping Brunner can be that kind of player but have no idea what to expect from the guy as he transitions to the NHL game. I do think there are worse lines for a goal scorer to start a career on than playing with Pavel and Hank
It's the only way that investment works out. Brunner can really only play top six and he needs to play with real skill players. They basically hope that though Brunner would be next to useless as a bottom six player his value will be maximized as a linemate of those two and thus improve the team.

I am skeptical, because my mind tells me if it was that easy to plug in a Euro scorer with deficiencies that limit his NHL potential otherwise, other teams would have done it already. I mean I think Brunner will score a fair few points but I wonder how effective he will be in general and whether that won't lead to a premature end to the experiment.

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01-10-2013, 08:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
It's the only way that investment works out. Brunner can really only play top six and he needs to play with real skill players. They basically hope that though Brunner would be next to useless as a bottom six player his value will be maximized as a linemate of those two and thus improve the team.
Not saying I disagree with you but I find it funny that those that are skeptical of Brunner can go on and on about him not playing a single NHL game but then turn around and make snap judgements like the one you just made.


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01-10-2013, 08:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
It's the only way that investment works out. Brunner can really only play top six and he needs to play with real skill players. They basically hope that though Brunner would be next to useless as a bottom six player his value will be maximized as a linemate of those two and thus improve the team.

I am skeptical, because my mind tells me if it was that easy to plug in a Euro scorer with deficiencies that limit his NHL potential otherwise, other teams would have done it already. I mean I think Brunner will score a fair few points but I wonder how effective he will be in general and whether that won't lead to a premature end to the experiment.
Yeah, from what little I know about Brunner, I don't really see him transitioning to being a lock-down defensive winger if he struggles to score. He'll definitely need to be productive early on to keep his spot in the lineup b/c even though Babs apparently likes him as a player, we all know he REALLY likes the Cleary/Sammy/Bert crowd so I don't see Brunner getting much slack as he starts his NHL career. He'll have to hit the ice running (more likely skating, I suppose) b/c I don't see him surviving a slow start to the season.

The optimistic side of me (which, granted, is minuscule from being a NY state native raised on cynicism and sarcasm) hopes that Brunner can turn into another Pavel or Hank-type player, most likely not in playing ability but just in being a guy overlooked by teams that has a game that works in Detroit. Man, it feels weird to be looking for the sunny side of something.


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01-10-2013, 08:52 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Brunner is just the latest symptom of this bug the Wings have, that signing European league skill players who didn't get any NHL love as prospects is gonna unearth the next big thing. Leino, Brunnstrom, now Brunner. It didn't work with the first two but here we are again hyping Brunner like he's gonna be a 40 goal scorer.
To me the difference here is that this is Babcock's first "scouting" find. And truthfully, I think Babcock has begun thinking about what he wants to do next-- whether it's coaching somewhere else, or being a general manager...

If you are Mike Babcock, you've taken the Ducks to the finals. You've won the cup with the Wings. You've won Gold for your country.

What else? Do you want to be an NHL coaching lifer? He's already seen that it's hard to keep a team's attention.

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01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
  #89
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To me the difference here is that this is Babcock's first "scouting" find. And truthfully, I think Babcock has begun thinking about what he wants to do next-- whether it's coaching somewhere else, or being a general manager...

If you are Mike Babcock, you've taken the Ducks to the finals. You've won the cup with the Wings. You've won Gold for your country.

What else? Do you want to be an NHL coaching lifer? He's already seen that it's hard to keep a team's attention.
I don't know how much of a "find" Brunner is. Weren't there several teams pursuing him? I know pitt and tampa were after him as well.

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01-10-2013, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Brunner is just the latest symptom of this bug the Wings have, that signing European league skill players who didn't get any NHL love as prospects is gonna unearth the next big thing. Leino, Brunnstrom, now Brunner. It didn't work with the first two but here we are again hyping Brunner like he's gonna be a 40 goal scorer.
Brunnstrom is nothing like the other two to me from a wings POV. His hype also died long before he came and played here. Leino tore up SM-Liiga(and now has himself a $4.5M contract for that matter), Brunner just tore up NLA. Brunnstrom's never even been close to a ppg in a pro league.

I really don't care if Brunner busts, if you can find one out of three or even out of five, it's worth a shot. I'd be more worried if they weren't on the look for free agents.

The only gripe, and what Bob is talking about, is why Brunner gets this chance when they've historically pretty much never given any player anything for free, drafted or undrafted. This also happens to be at the same time the Wings prospect pool is the best in forever and they have two adequately developed top forwards playing in the minors. Top5 in AHL scoring, or top20 in Tatar's case holds more weight than any non-KHL scoring to me. And realistically, what player doesn't thrive playing with Z and Pavel? They're all under two-way deals, so it's not that. Kenny must've promised a regular spot for him to sign, I can't see any other rational explanation.

Gosh, I can't wait to see the first game.

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01-10-2013, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
So, Babcock should base his lines on seniority with the team? I think Nyquist is going to be a very good hockey player, but if Babcock thinks Brunner is a better fit or better hockey player than Nyquist then he should get more IT. Keep in mind Brunner was a free agent, he's not some rookie that we just drafted and is getting special treatment over Nyquist.
Brunner is getting special treatment here Heaton. He may have been a free agent, but his SPC is the same as Tatar's and Nyquist's. They can send him down all week to AHL and twice on Sundays if they like, just like the other two.

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01-10-2013, 10:37 PM
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Brunnstrom is nothing like the other two to me from a wings POV. His hype also died long before he came and played here. Leino tore up SM-Liiga(and now has himself a $4.5M contract for that matter), Brunner just tore up NLA. Brunnstrom's never even been close to a ppg in a pro league.
I think when the Wings first wanted him, before he signed with Dallas, I think he was hyped as "the best available player not owned by a NHL organization". In that sense he is similar though he was much younger then and a lot less prolific in the SEL.

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I really don't care if Brunner busts, if you can find one out of three or even out of five, it's worth a shot. I'd be more worried if they weren't on the look for free agents.
I do care, I want him to be a success. My concern is also not that they look out for guys like this, but the fact that we seem to rest our hopes on what really is a minor "long shot" type acquisition. And that's not just the fans, the team promotes that thinking. It's obvious why that is - there's simply nothing else to get fans excited and that's what I have a hard time accepting.

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01-10-2013, 11:18 PM
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I don't mind looking for UFAs either.
I like the idea of bringing in a Brunner type every year.

But at some point, you've got a full roster to consider. We already had a ton of forwards, even with Homer retiring.

Lose Homer. Add Brunner, Sammy, Tootoo.

Where the heck do you find room to squeeze in Nyquist and give Tatar a shot? You still haven't even given Mursak a proper shot.

It just seems like Ken Holland is acting like my friends mother-in-law, collecting every little thing she sees... and not really haven't any idea how it will all be used

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01-11-2013, 12:12 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Brunner is just the latest symptom of this bug the Wings have, that signing European league skill players who didn't get any NHL love as prospects is gonna unearth the next big thing. Leino, Brunnstrom, now Brunner. It didn't work with the first two but here we are again hyping Brunner like he's gonna be a 40 goal scorer.
You forgot the Wings backup goalie is one of those guys too.


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It just seems like Ken Holland is acting like my friends mother-in-law, collecting every little thing she sees...
Hey now, by your own admission, he threw away a 1st round pick last year!

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01-11-2013, 03:43 AM
  #95
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I don't know how much of a "find" Brunner is. Weren't there several teams pursuing him? I know pitt and tampa were after him as well.
Yeah, we were a bit lucky that he chose us. But also our playing style and great reputation with European players was big factor to his decision. I remember I saw this in some interview.

And maybe somebody told him "they haven't had that world-class right-handed sniper there for years, and you are kind of born to that role."

It will be interesting race at next season. 7 million Semin vs. 950k Brunner.

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01-11-2013, 05:25 AM
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Brunnstrom is nothing like the other two to me from a wings POV. His hype also died long before he came and played here. Leino tore up SM-Liiga(and now has himself a $4.5M contract for that matter), Brunner just tore up NLA. Brunnstrom's never even been close to a ppg in a pro league.

I really don't care if Brunner busts, if you can find one out of three or even out of five, it's worth a shot. I'd be more worried if they weren't on the look for free agents.

The only gripe, and what Bob is talking about, is why Brunner gets this chance when they've historically pretty much never given any player anything for free, drafted or undrafted. This also happens to be at the same time the Wings prospect pool is the best in forever and they have two adequately developed top forwards playing in the minors. Top5 in AHL scoring, or top20 in Tatar's case holds more weight than any non-KHL scoring to me. And realistically, what player doesn't thrive playing with Z and Pavel? They're all under two-way deals, so it's not that. Kenny must've promised a regular spot for him to sign, I can't see any other rational explanation.

Gosh, I can't wait to see the first game.
They have very little time to figure out if Brunner is any good. So they give him a shot. If he is good, then he stays and Wings offer a new deal. If he is not good enough then goodbye next summer. Playing him with Z and Dats also makes things clearer. If he can't succeed with, those two then what's the point. And they more or less already know where Gus and Tatar stand.

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01-11-2013, 06:54 AM
  #97
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Brunner is getting special treatment here Heaton. He may have been a free agent, but his SPC is the same as Tatar's and Nyquist's. They can send him down all week to AHL and twice on Sundays if they like, just like the other two.
Except his European team made Brunner honor his contract and come back to Europe when it was clear he was going to the AHL while the NHL was locked out. To keep Brunner over here, the AHL may not be an option.

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01-11-2013, 07:24 AM
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Except his European team made Brunner honor his contract and come back to Europe when it was clear he was going to the AHL while the NHL was locked out. To keep Brunner over here, the AHL may not be an option.
He can play in the AHL from now on. It was only during the lockout that they didn't want him to play in the AHL when he could just as well play with Zug. Now that the lockout is over, he's just like any other waiver free player.

Of course, keeping him up in Detroit for this season will probably help to re-sign him. If he's stuck in the AHL he could very well sign with an other team that promises him a top-6 role.

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01-11-2013, 07:37 AM
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Except his European team made Brunner honor his contract and come back to Europe when it was clear he was going to the AHL while the NHL was locked out. To keep Brunner over here, the AHL may not be an option.
Well that is one side of the story. I think it was him not wanting to play in the AHL more than anything(not blaming him for it). There are other European undrafted players that signed entry-level deals in the summer playing in the AHL right now, despite existing deals back home. The NHL out clause works like that, you sign a contract and you become the NHL team's property. Your old deal becomes secondary, but an oral agreement still goes a long way.

The Wings were/are fine with it because it's NHL or bust with him, and they don't want him to take a spot from some youngster in the minors either. And that's fine. But I've never heard of a one-way ELC, so to speak.

I'm just surprised they don't plan to have some competition in camp(well maybe they will and are just fooling us). I really want to give Brunner a shot, it's not that.

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01-11-2013, 07:41 AM
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so much whining about Brunner getting special treatment

so what?

he deserves special treatment,he just played half a season with Zetterberg and did extremely well

why would the Wings NOT try and see if that chemistry transfers over to the NHL in a short season like this?

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