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Matt Duchene for Morgan Rielly

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Old
11-06-2012, 11:57 AM
  #126
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I guess. However, I still think you could have worded it differently.

There are a lot of players from that draft who haven't even MADE the NHL yet. Their stocks haven't necessarily dropped, they are still on course. Compared to a kid who's played and excelled, I'd say his stock has risen significantly. Just my opinion I guess.

But I get what you're saying, since he was picked 3rd, he was 'supposed' to be good.
Exactly. Not to mention my own personal bias had Duchene as the best player from that draft (better than Tavares)

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11-06-2012, 12:08 PM
  #127
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What Reilly has done since he was drafted (20 points in WHL) = stock rising.

What Duchene has done since he was drafted (150 points in NHL) = looks like he's regressing.

HF, don't ever change.

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11-06-2012, 12:46 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What Reilly has done since he was drafted (20 points in WHL) = stock rising.

What Duchene has done since he was drafted (150 points in NHL) = looks like he's regressing.

HF, don't ever change.
Being impressive in junior is more impressive than being impressive in the NHL. Duh.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:09 PM
  #129
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What Reilly has done since he was drafted (20 points in WHL) = stock rising.

What Duchene has done since he was drafted (150 points in NHL) = looks like he's regressing.

HF, don't ever change.
Rielly, not Reilly.

PS, thanks for your input!

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:26 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Rielly, not Reilly.
Payback for years of Statsny, Statny, Stasny, Stassny.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:26 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
I guess. However, I still think you could have worded it differently.

There are a lot of players from that draft who haven't even MADE the NHL yet. Their stocks haven't necessarily dropped, they are still on course. Compared to a kid who's played and excelled, I'd say his stock has risen significantly. Just my opinion I guess.

But I get what you're saying, since he was picked 3rd, he was 'supposed' to be good.
I am still inclined to agree with your initial sentiment moreso and was about to address that point when you first responded. His stock obviously has risen, and I don't see a big reason for debate there. Whether one had specifically big expectations for Duchene himself or that 3rd overall pick is not really worthy of consideration. Yes, there's a reasonable expectation for every 3rd overall pick, but I would be surprised if history actually told us that Duchene's contributions since then aren't clearly above-average. I really don't think that initial statement could stand.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:28 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Rielly, not Reilly.

PS, thanks for your input!
Good thing you cleared that up. Looks like his point is completely irrelevant now.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:42 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
What Reilly has done since he was drafted (20 points in WHL) = stock rising.

What Duchene has done since he was drafted (150 points in NHL) = looks like he's regressing.

HF, don't ever change.
lol, this is a good point and sums this up pretty well.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:42 PM
  #134
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OP here. Very interesting argument going on here. I knew when I threw this proposal together that the Av's fans would take issue with it...and YES, as of right now it is totally in Toronto's favour.
But where I was going with this proposal, if this trade went down and in lets say 5 years, I think Morgan Rielly will be the bigger impact player.
Love Duchene, he loves this team too. His skillset is very electrifying and is so much fun to watch. He can be a bit redundant and predictable. Just watch him vs. RNH this year and you will see what I mean..he got owned by an 18 year kid. I have no doubt that he will be a consistant 70-80 point player.
I see Rielly as potentially the next Karlsson. Very similar skillsets, and is an absolute treat to watch.

And yes, I would rather keep O'Reilly.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:46 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Rielly for O'Reilly? Lol. Awesome.
Leafs nee to add an "O" to balance it out.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:48 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Leafs nee to add an "O" to balance it out.
Jesus, I really want to make a joke about there being enough "0"s on the Leafs and that being "close enough", but I think my mod-status is preventing me from that. But I would make sure everybody got I was just kidding.

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11-06-2012, 02:46 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Good thing you cleared that up. Looks like his point is completely irrelevant now.


It was cleared up before he even responded to it. RELATIVE to where Duchene was drafted his stock hasn't risen (whether it has stagnated or fallen is up for debate). I didn't think it was such a hard concept to grasp but I guess I was wrong. Nowhere was I suggesting that Rielly's value has risen because of a few games in the CHL either but he's free to make things up.

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Old
11-06-2012, 03:36 PM
  #138
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I think the masses concur that there has to be a pretty significant addition from Toronto, what would be a proper add on? Perhaps Toronto's first round pick (stacked draft and Leafs will suck again), with Col sending back a mid-range prospect or 2nd rounder?

Rielly + 1st rounder

for

Duchene + 2nd rounder

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:29 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I think the masses concur that there has to be a pretty significant addition from Toronto, what would be a proper add on? Perhaps Toronto's first round pick (stacked draft and Leafs will suck again), with Col sending back a mid-range prospect or 2nd rounder?

Rielly + 1st rounder

for

Duchene + 2nd rounder
If that pick was a top 5, then that'd be very tempting.

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11-06-2012, 05:36 PM
  #140
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i would do this as a leafs fan because i grew up playing agaisnt duchene and know how special he will be. I would add but not sure how much the leafs can afford to because we need any elite assets we can develope.

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:36 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I think the masses concur that there has to be a pretty significant addition from Toronto, what would be a proper add on? Perhaps Toronto's first round pick (stacked draft and Leafs will suck again), with Col sending back a mid-range prospect or 2nd rounder?

Rielly + 1st rounder

for

Duchene + 2nd rounder
This would be a bad idea for the Leafs. If we just sit pat, make no moves, and their IS a season this year, I think there's a decent chance we draft top 5. This draft is one of the strongest for centres in a long time, we'd have a good chance to get our hands on one of MacKinnon, Barkov, Monahan or Lindholm, without giving up Rielly.

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Old
11-06-2012, 06:15 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
Rielly is not worth Duchen quite just yet.
Not saying he is worth Duchene just yet, but I'd rather have Toronto draft a centre than trade for one. We'd give more than we'd want for Duchene so why not just wait for Rielly to develop? He's tearing up the WHL better than many forwards, if his production keeps up, who says he doesn't turn into a #1 d-man?

IMO it's more difficult to find a true #1 d-man than a #1/2 C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post


Can you expand on this statement and provide some sort of list or proof to back it up?
Finding a quality d-man who can control games is much more difficult than finding a forward who plays 2nd line centre (albeit should be a 1st liner).

In short sum, I'd rather have an Erik Karlsson over a Matt Duchene. Not to say that Rielly will match Karlsson's production or skill set, but their game is very similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJN21 View Post
You've never seen Rielly's skillset in the NHL so im nto sure if serious and Matt Duchene IMO has one of the rarest skillsets in the league in terms of speed, shot, finesse, puck handling...Id say the likes of Patrick Kane and company are likely comparable...
I'd agree that Duchene's skillset is very good. But every year there are high-end forwards that are very good offensively. Finding defencemen who can play at a better rate of ppg in juniors is difficult too. If Rielly's game translates, he'll be a stud in the NHL.

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Old
11-06-2012, 06:22 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brewmeister View Post
Finding a quality d-man who can control games is much more difficult than finding a forward who plays 2nd line centre (albeit should be a 1st liner).

In short sum, I'd rather have an Erik Karlsson over a Matt Duchene. Not to say that Rielly will match Karlsson's production or skill set, but their game is very similar.
You said it was easier to find a Duchene than a Rielly. I asked how you can support that statement because I disagree.

It's also strange you would compare Rielly to Karlsson and Duchene to himself. Of course I'd rather have Karlsson over Duchene. But Rielly is not Karlsson and the number of players at Karlsson's level are few and far between.

Rielly cannot be compared to Karlsson in a serious sense until he has shown he is even capalbe of being in that realm. Sure, in Leaf-land it's fine to hope for that from him, but in a realistic discussion Rielly should be viewed as a future PMD-#2 type capable of ~50 points a year. I'd take Duchene's 70-80 point potential over that type of defender personally.

Both have a further level of potential, Rielly being a #1, top 15 defender contender and Duchene being a 90+ point top 15 center. But neither should be viewed in that light without seeing it occur and Duchene is far closer to his realistic ceiling as of today than Rielly is.

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Old
11-06-2012, 06:33 PM
  #144
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Yes from Toronto.
Doubt Colorado would do it.

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Old
11-07-2012, 06:24 AM
  #145
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yeah not even close...

Established NHL center for a junior player...

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Old
11-07-2012, 11:18 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Absolutely. Its fair easier to find a 1st line highly skilled center, rather than a top pairing PMD...
I'm not disputing that the value is off and Toronto would have to add, but in what world is Duchene a first line centre?

55 in 81 is solid as a rookie.
67 in 80 is solid as a sophomore, 2nd line numbers at best.
28 in 58 is a complete disappointment.


Duchene may be someday, but he's not a 1st line centreman right now. His production is that of an average 2nd liner.

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11-07-2012, 11:24 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I'm not disputing that the value is off and Toronto would have to add, but in what world is Duchene a first line centre?

55 in 81 is solid as a rookie.
67 in 80 is solid as a sophomore, 2nd line numbers at best.
28 in 58 is a complete disappointment.


Duchene may be someday, but he's not a 1st line centreman right now. His production is that of an average 2nd liner.
What team in the league, has a guy putting up 67 points on the second line? Those are 1st line numbers, Duchene just had a bad year, strongly believe he bounces back and that this offer is ridiculous.

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11-07-2012, 11:29 AM
  #148
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Rielly isn't a top pairing player either. He could become one, but just like Dutchy he's not there yet. Unlike Duchene though he has yet to show he's capable of even coming as close as Duchene has to either of those roles though. Cause like it or not Duchene's solid sophomore season had him in that allstar game at a PPG average. The wheels fell of the team as injuries and the EJ trade decimated our winger depth, but he was absolutely a first line center for most of that season.

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11-07-2012, 11:37 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I'm not disputing that the value is off and Toronto would have to add, but in what world is Duchene a first line centre?

55 in 81 is solid as a rookie.
67 in 80 is solid as a sophomore, 2nd line numbers at best.
28 in 58 is a complete disappointment.


Duchene may be someday, but he's not a 1st line centreman right now. His production is that of an average 2nd liner.


Looks like the NHL only has 9 First Line Centers.

Top 30 centers in scoring last season
1 Evgeni Malkin PIT C 75 50 59 109
2 Steven Stamkos TBL C 82 60 37 97
3 Jason Spezza OTT C 80 34 50 84
4 John Tavares NYI C 82 31 50 81
5 Henrik Sedin VAN C 82 14 67 81
6 Patrik Elias NJD C 81 26 52 78
7 Joe Thornton SJS C 82 18 59 77
8 Anze Kopitar LAK C 82 25 51 76
9 Eric Staal CAR C 82 24 46 70
10 Tyler Seguin BOS C 81 29 38 67
11 Pavel Datsyuk DET C 70 19 48 67
12 Brad Richards NYR C 82 25 41 66
13 Valtteri Filppula DET C 81 23 43 66
14 Logan Couture SJS C 80 31 34 65
15 Patrice Bergeron BOS C 81 22 42 64
16 Mike Ribeiro DAL C 74 18 45 63
17 David Krejci BOS C 79 23 39 62
18 Joe Pavelski SJS C 82 31 30 61
19 Olli Jokinen CGY C 82 23 38 61
20 David Desharnais MTL C 81 16 44 60
21 Jonathan Toews CHI C 59 29 28 57
22 Stephen Weiss FLA C 80 20 37 57
23 Ryan Getzlaf ANA C 82 11 46 57
24 Ryan O'Reilly COL C 81 18 37 55
25 David Backes STL C 82 24 30 54
26 Paul Stastny COL C 79 21 32 53
27 David Legwand NSH C 78 19 34 53
28 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins EDM C 62 18 34 52
29 Tomas Plekanec MTL C 81 17 35 52
30 Mike Fisher NSH C 72 24 27 51


It's funny, Tyler Seguin just finished a 67 point campaign in his SECOND season as a pro and apparently, he's the offspring of Jesus and Chuck Norris, if Chuck Norris was a women.

Freudian is right: "HF, don't ever change."

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Old
11-07-2012, 11:46 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoppaForsberg View Post
What team in the league, has a guy putting up 67 points on the second line? Those are 1st line numbers, Duchene just had a bad year, strongly believe he bounces back and that this offer is ridiculous.
Generally speaking, most first line centres are capable of 70-80 + points...

Taking one years numbers as a sample doesn't say much..


Its the Patrice Bergeron debate.. Good second liner with good numbers doesn't make a first liner.


Just because theres 30 teams, doesn't mean theres 30 first line centres. Theres 10-15, maybe. Thats generous.

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