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11-07-2012, 08:51 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
My first instinct was to suggest that he'd probably simply pen yet another way out there conspiratorial dissertation, and then I decided to check and it turns out that I was correct...
Sooo, ya'll reckon thats an actual picture of the guy Gumpster? Im assuming it must be. Hipster with a shaved head. Phrenologically challenged from what I can see. Well over the line in terms of what constitutes Neanderthal. An obvious "deviant".... then theres the headphones. Listening to what I know not, nor do I wish to explore those particular corridors of my imagination at this moment in time.... to quote my good buddy Tom Cochrane; Lunatic Fringe... I Know Your Out There.

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11-07-2012, 09:08 PM
  #252
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After these elections how close is Quebec City to getting a NHL team(the Coyotes)? Has there chances improved? Have they(the NHL) now decided that whatever AMF comes from Glendale, it is not going to be worth it because they will not get the $25-$30 Million a year they were looking for in the AMF from Glendale? Does PKP already have a agreement with NHL to move the Coyotes to Quebec City for X amount of dollars? What is the NHL's plan regarding the Coyotes? What will they do?

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11-07-2012, 09:28 PM
  #253
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After these elections how close is Quebec City to getting a NHL team(the Coyotes)? Has there chances improved? Have they(the NHL) now decided that whatever AMF comes from Glendale, it is not going to be worth it because they will not get the $25-$30 Million a year they were looking for in the AMF from Glendale? Does PKP already have a agreement with NHL to move the Coyotes to Quebec City for X amount of dollars? What is the NHL's plan regarding the Coyotes? What will they do?
Closer. Maybe. Maybe. Ask Gary. Ask Gary. Eat Waffles.

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11-07-2012, 09:31 PM
  #254
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So Clark stated on Monday that Jamison was in town today to work on the Coyotes deal. Skeete told AZ Republic today he has no meetings set up with Jamison. Is there anyone else Jamison would be negotiating this AMF with?
I would expect that gramps GJ is in discussions with the TO tribe about where to proceed with this deal.

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11-07-2012, 09:32 PM
  #255
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Am I missing something here? Clarke threw her hat in as a strong Yotes supporter. She garnered 1927 votes for her efforts. If every vote she got came from a Yotes fan, what does that say about the hockey fans in Glendale? Are the rest of the hockey fans snowbirds and as a result had no vote?

Makes no diff. to me if the team moves or stays but that is an awfully small number.
Well a few things.

1) I haven't been to Glendale so there are probably a whole host of other issues facing them so there maybe Coyotes fans in her distract who voted against her for other reasons

2) The whole "hispanic takeover" thing may not have played well. A lot of older politicians in the states haven't figured out you can't run a campaign and think you can win with just white people. See Romney. Mitt

3) Its not a matter of Coyotes supporters in Glendale. The idea was never lets build this arena here because we have a lot of hockey fans in Glendale and its a nice amenity for them or even hockey fans will move to Glendale to be close to the team. It was more this will bring hockey fans from all over the valley to come to games and hang out in our bars ans restaurants and shop in our stores etc. If Markham was to build the arena and get a team it won't be just Markham residents going to the games or being fans of the team it will be people from downtown to Barrie. But this touches on the main crux of the argument about cities spending money on sports venues. If you build one thinking you're going to make up for it in a tangible manner by economic activity on game days in areas immediately adjacent to the venue no you're not. If you accept that your investment is a subsidy for some rich dude to pay other rich dudes to play a game and what you are really getting is the fun of having a team in town as an entertainment option for your residents and the prestige that goes with being a big league city, with the added perk that having such a venue may lure some concerts and other events that residents find fun, then you have to decide if its worth that.

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11-07-2012, 10:11 PM
  #256
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What will they do?
They'll probably do what they've done for years now, right?

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March 3, 2010 *This was among my first posts ever to BoH. Two months after this, Glendale approved the first $25MM payment:

I think the NHL's intention will be governed by their options. I don't think you can close the door entirely on the league attempting to sign another temporary lease agreement with Glendale. However, from a business standpoint it would be among the least desirable options. Absent a last minute public funding approval, the Glendale market is untenable. Hard to imagine the NHL Owners wanted to lose another bundle of money next year.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the NHL knows what is possible in Hamilton after the events in this case. I also would not be surprised to learn that the league is already in possession of terms from AEG for how a Sprint Center lease would look.


June 2, 2011 *Then they fired up the Glendale City Hall Circus again in 2011. This time, after the funding was approved, the Thrashers relocated to Winnipeg:

The NHL's desire to move the Coyotes will continue to be governed by their options. The fact of the matter is that the NHL did have at least one contingency plan to relocate the franchise if the only other option was to maintain the Coyotes in Glendale and absorb the losses. (I speculated that they may have had an agreement in principal with Kansas City. As it turns out, they constructed one with Winnipeg.)

I find any post claiming that the NHL "would have sold to TSNE if they wanted to" to be dishonest in nature, either by ignorance or intent. The incentive to sell to TSNE was dictated by financial impact. When Glendale voted in favor of alleviating the burden of losses, the incentive to relocate the team was quelled.
Ready to hear it again for 2012?

The NHL's desire to relocate the Coyotes is governed by their options. Absent a public funding approval, the Glendale market is untenable. The NHL almost assuredly has contingency plans should that public funding not be approved. They don't likely include absorbing losses by operating the franchise without a subsidy. They probably do include either a tentative agreement for a soft landing in another market or a plan to suspend the operation of the franchise until they do have a landing.

I doubt that the league really does have a city/arena/owner available at this precise moment; but then again, I had KC in front of Winnipeg back in 2010, so you might want to seek other opinions on this.

Anyway, if the league can get $70MM or $90MM from COG over the next 5 years, you can bet your neck they'll be skating in Glendale when play resumes. But if they can't get the amount that they need to make it reasonable to attempt operating the team in Glendale, everything the NHL has done to date on this file appears to indicate they'll move it or shut it down.

From a Glendale perspective, it's super crazy to approve that large scale subsidy when you compare it against what the team does in loss avoidance + direct + indirect revenues. But, they've done it twice before and they may just lob another couple hundred million into the sink hole. We'll see. It sure will be fun to watch. Especially if they go for it and then get sued. That just seems to keep happening to the Glendale Visionaries.

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11-07-2012, 10:27 PM
  #257
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They'll probably do what they've done for years now, right?
... dont think so. Id be surprised if anyone could unwind $60M from the COG over the next 10yrs without some serious Performance Clauses. Lessons Learned. Oxygen pumped back into the Casino. The Parallax View. Out Through The In-Door.... sorry, couldnt habituate myself from the City on the Bay, Golden Gate, Haight Ashbury, one too many trips Councillor.

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11-07-2012, 10:38 PM
  #258
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Nothing of substance... just found it coincidental that the Seattle Post Intelligencer has begun beating the drum

Arizona city’s new mayor-elect could help Seattle’s search for NHL team

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11-07-2012, 10:48 PM
  #259
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I would expect that gramps GJ is in discussions with the TO tribe about where to proceed with this deal.
I think it's much more likely he's meeting with the new (getting into office soon) and old (leaving soon) guys at the city council to see if there's a possible deal to be made with either. Or maybe you're right and he's asking the tribe for money to buy an hockey team in the middle of the desert, in which case they will most likely just laugh in his face, or maybe send their pal Connor to take care of him:


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11-08-2012, 12:15 AM
  #260
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George Fallar is a sore loser. The guy has **** for brains, plain and simple.

The Coyotes are on life support at this point, their Champion was just defeated, the money isn't there, the tax initiative still applies but if it isn't used for what the proposition suggested it be used for you can bet there will be a backlash.

Can we just move the team already and be done with it!!
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My first instinct was to suggest that he'd probably simply pen yet another way out there conspiratorial dissertation, and then I decided to check and it turns out that I was correct...
http://nebulousverbosity.com/?p=2303

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My wonder now is, what will Fallar do now?

I don't want to be OT, they were 2 persons doing a lot in Glendale FOR the deal with GJ, what ever could be the cost for the citizens...

And here I thought mocking fans of teams was supposed to be off limits???


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11-08-2012, 12:17 AM
  #261
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Here's how you sum up the election in Glendale. Scruggs and her merry band of incompetent misfits messed up the Hulsizer deal and burned their bridges in every way possible, with Kerosene, on their way out of office. She went out of her way to make sure anyone who was associated with the Coyotes deal that was up for re-election was thrown under the bus in grand style.

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11-08-2012, 12:21 AM
  #262
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And here I thought mocking fans of teams was supposed to be off limits???

It should be, but I think it is arguable that the gentleman in question has transported himself to a category other than "fan" through his political activism and published "verbosity" related to this topic.

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11-08-2012, 12:22 AM
  #263
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And here I thought mocking fans of teams was supposed to be off limits???

Wait! Its allowed again? Oh goody I have some new material in the works that will just rock

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11-08-2012, 12:22 AM
  #264
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Here's how you sum up the election. Scruggs and her merry band of incompetent misfits messed up the Hulsizer deal and burned their bridges in every way possible, with Kerosene, on their way out of office. She went out of her way to make sure anyone who was associated with the Coyotes deal that was up for re-election was thrown under the bus in grand style.
... know what? I can empathize with that perspective, appreciate it, find no grounds to argue against.

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11-08-2012, 12:27 AM
  #265
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... know what? I can empathize with that perspective, appreciate it, find no grounds to argue against.
That's just the sugar coated version. Scruggs has been a backstabbing slime ball these past few months.

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11-08-2012, 12:36 AM
  #266
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That's just the sugar coated version. Scruggs has been a backstabbing slime ball these past few months.
"Hell hath no fury...."

Beasley and a thin majority of council members continuously frustrated Mayor Scruggs' attempts to get information about alternative management options for the Jobing.com. More importantly, Beasley seems to have decided to cut the mayor out of conversations with Jamison and the NHL. Meanwhile, Jamison refused to even answer her phone calls, even though he was demanding more than $320 million from the COG. She was a staunch supporter of the Coyotes and subsidies to make something work, but something about the way that Beasley and Jamison dealt with her seems to have turned her negative. In addition, she has frequently noted that with the budget crisis and the looming need to cut many jobs and services, the situation had changed and the COG could no longer afford the subsidies demanded by Jamison.

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11-08-2012, 12:49 AM
  #267
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"Hell hath no fury...."

Beasley and a thin majority of council members continuously frustrated Mayor Scruggs' attempts to get information about alternative management options for the Jobing.com. More importantly, Beasley seems to have decided to cut the mayor out of conversations with Jamison and the NHL. Meanwhile, Jamison refused to even answer her phone calls, even though he was demanding more than $320 million from the COG. She was a staunch supporter of the Coyotes and subsidies to make something work, but something about the way that Beasley and Jamison dealt with her seems to have turned her negative. In addition, she has frequently noted that with the budget crisis and the looming need to cut many jobs and services, the situation had changed and the COG could no longer afford the subsidies demanded by Jamison.
The thing is Glendale has another sports facility thats managed by a third party (Global Spectrum). She could have just called or had her assistant or Chief of Staff call and say "hey just quick question, if we put the management of the arena up for bid, just ball park how much do you guys charge for that? oh yeah while I have you on the phone do you guys own any other arenas outside of the Well Fargo Arena in Philly because we may have to consider selling this one"

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11-08-2012, 12:49 AM
  #268
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Well a few things.

1) I haven't been to Glendale so there are probably a whole host of other issues facing them so there maybe Coyotes fans in her distract who voted against her for other reasons
As I stated in another post... Glendale's issues went well beyond the hockey franchise and Westgate. Since the city is composed of 6 districts and only those people within Clark's district could vote for her (or Chivara), for all anyone knows the number of Coyotes fans could have been been less than other districts. But since Westgate was a part of her district you can't blame Clark for defending her district. Just as you wouldn't blame the other CMs for defending theirs. That's how a representative government works.

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2) The whole "hispanic takeover" thing may not have played well. A lot of older politicians in the states haven't figured out you can't run a campaign and think you can win with just white people. See Romney. Mitt
Again... only the voters within Clark's district mattered. Whatever the ethnic makeup is within that district would be mostly in play. However, as I previously posted, the ethnic issue got more play on this board than in Glendale. IMO it wasn't the wisest move on her part to hint at a "Latino takeover", but the elections in this state do get very nasty.... and this year wasn't an exception. Chavira's people were passing out copies of a hit piece the AZ Republic ran at Clark over the audit two days before the election. That article was incomplete, and innaccurate, but it provided the Chavira campaign with ammunition for election day.


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3) Its not a matter of Coyotes supporters in Glendale. The idea was never lets build this arena here because we have a lot of hockey fans in Glendale and its a nice amenity for them or even hockey fans will move to Glendale to be close to the team. It was more this will bring hockey fans from all over the valley to come to games and hang out in our bars ans restaurants and shop in our stores etc. If Markham was to build the arena and get a team it won't be just Markham residents going to the games or being fans of the team it will be people from downtown to Barrie. But this touches on the main crux of the argument about cities spending money on sports venues. If you build one thinking you're going to make up for it in a tangible manner by economic activity on game days in areas immediately adjacent to the venue no you're not. If you accept that your investment is a subsidy for some rich dude to pay other rich dudes to play a game and what you are really getting is the fun of having a team in town as an entertainment option for your residents and the prestige that goes with being a big league city, with the added perk that having such a venue may lure some concerts and other events that residents find fun, then you have to decide if its worth that.
This is exactly why Glendale entered into the sports entertainment district concept in the first place. Steve Ellman bought himself a hockey franchise in order to build a retail and housing complex around it. He brought in one of the greatest players in the game as part owner, and a marketing draw to make it legitimate. But his real goal was making his money from the potential real estate sales and commercial space leasing. The Coyotes were for the most part.... a loss leader. And THAT was the fatal flaw in the plan.

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11-08-2012, 12:54 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Dolemite
Here's how you sum up the election in Glendale. Scruggs and her merry band of incompetent misfits messed up the Hulsizer deal and burned their bridges in every way possible, with Kerosene, on their way out of office. She went out of her way to make sure anyone who was associated with the Coyotes deal that was up for re-election was thrown under the bus in grand style.
I'm pretty sure there was only one person up for re-election in the entire city, so it's hard to picture this go-out-of-the-way bus throwing operation. I'd ask you how, specifically, did Scruggs mess up the Hulzinger deal and exactly which bridges were burned - but I'm not sure I want to endure that answer, assuming you could even provide it.


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That's just the sugar coated version. Scruggs has been a backstabbing slime ball these past few months.
It sounds more like the mostly fictional version.

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11-08-2012, 12:56 AM
  #270
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Again... only the voters within Clark's district mattered. Whatever the ethnic makeup is within that district would be mostly in play. However, as I previously posted, the ethnic issue got more play on this board than in Glendale. IMO it wasn't the wisest move on her part to hint at a "Latino takeover", but the elections in this state do get very nasty.... and this year wasn't an exception. Chavira's people were passing out copies of a hit piece the AZ Republic ran at Clark over the audit two days before the election. That article was incomplete, and innaccurate, but it provided the Chavira campaign with ammunition for election day.




This is exactly why Glendale entered into the sports entertainment district concept in the first place. Steve Ellman bought himself a hockey franchise in order to build a retail and housing complex around it. He brought in one of the greatest players in the game as part owner, and a marketing draw to make it legitimate. But his real goal was making his money from the potential real estate sales and commercial space leasing. The Coyotes were for the most part.... a loss leader. And THAT was the fatal flaw in the plan.
In the first point I don't know the breakdown of that district but its not just Latinos who get uncomfortable with that sort of talk. But for all I know that could work there.

As for the plan for the hockey team being a loss leader, isn't that the Panthers plan? They make money on the overall surrounding development? Now hopefully you can fill in the gap here. I can see that plan making sense. Heck to some extent thats why Ratner bought the Nets and moved them to Brooklyn. Offering Brooklyn a chance to get big league sports again made it easier to get all the other stuff he wanted approved. What I want to know is why did Moyes buy the team? He didn't own Westgate so he didn't have the other revenues to make up for Coyotes losses.

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11-08-2012, 01:09 AM
  #271
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"Hell hath no fury...."

Beasley and a thin majority of council members continuously frustrated Mayor Scruggs' attempts to get information about alternative management options for the Jobing.com. More importantly, Beasley seems to have decided to cut the mayor out of conversations with Jamison and the NHL. Meanwhile, Jamison refused to even answer her phone calls, even though he was demanding more than $320 million from the COG. She was a staunch supporter of the Coyotes and subsidies to make something work, but something about the way that Beasley and Jamison dealt with her seems to have turned her negative. In addition, she has frequently noted that with the budget crisis and the looming need to cut many jobs and services, the situation had changed and the COG could no longer afford the subsidies demanded by Jamison.
You have one major flaw in your argument Whillee.... And that was up until the Jamison bid, Scruggs was right up front leading the charge to offer anything to keep the franchise in that arena. She championed the CFD for Reinsdorf, she championed the $100M parking bonds for Hulsizer.

Beasley worked for the council..... they hired him and they had the power to fire him..... and she was the head of that council. Remember that the council had dozens upon dozens of closed door meetings with the city manager over the past three years. There were plenty of opportunities for her to question Beasley on the status of negotiations, so if she wasn't aware of what Beasley was doing then it was her own fault.

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11-08-2012, 01:14 AM
  #272
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You have one major flaw in your argument Whillee....
... Im thinkin Whileee subscribes to my own propensities, "Hell Hath no Fury"... telling; yes Legend?.

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11-08-2012, 01:17 AM
  #273
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In the first point I don't know the breakdown of that district but its not just Latinos who get uncomfortable with that sort of talk. But for all I know that could work there.

As for the plan for the hockey team being a loss leader, isn't that the Panthers plan? They make money on the overall surrounding development? Now hopefully you can fill in the gap here. I can see that plan making sense. Heck to some extent thats why Ratner bought the Nets and moved them to Brooklyn. Offering Brooklyn a chance to get big league sports again made it easier to get all the other stuff he wanted approved. What I want to know is why did Moyes buy the team? He didn't own Westgate so he didn't have the other revenues to make up for Coyotes losses.
Ellman made it worth his while. Moyes ended up with an office building at Westgate. For which he moved the franchise's front office into (at more than the going rate). Plus it gave Moyes a cash cow to milk for other ventures (ie. the $80million loan he took using the team as collateral for another real estate venture.)

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11-08-2012, 01:19 AM
  #274
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... Im thinkin Whileee subscribes to my own propensities, "Hell Hath no Fury"... telling; yes Legend?.
Yup......


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11-08-2012, 01:45 AM
  #275
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So if the race for Lieberman's seat is still too close to call that means his seat stays open until there is a winner. Which is one less no vote in the mean time.

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