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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:34 PM
  #401
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Even though they force this new lease come nov 27th, GJ won't be able to close the deal. Unless he magically found millions in the last couple weeks of course. This guy had 15months to close this deal under a much friendler AMF and city counsil but couldn't make it.

I don't believe he'll magically be able to close this deal now with the new AMF that's likely to be less profitable for him, a cc opposed to the deal just waiting to be sworn in and the GWI still waiting in the dark to shut this thing down.

If CoG, the NHL and GJ wanted this deal done, they had the last 15months to do it. I believe GJ and the NHL are probably putting more energy in trying to find a way out of this mess than to make this thing work.

My 0,02$.

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11-09-2012, 12:35 PM
  #402
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Show of hands... how many posters here in this forum are actually Glendale residents?

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11-09-2012, 12:37 PM
  #403
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Quite a few on the Coyotes forum. No great mystery why they don't bother to represent themselves in these threads, however. If you guys were looking for perspective from Glendale residents, you've sure had a funny way of showing it.

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:51 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
If you were a tax paying citizen in Glendale, I would support you.

I am willing to bet that you could not care less about the good citizens of Glendale. Once this whole "coyotes; thing is settled, you will never pay attention to the politics in Glendale ever again.

Clark is the current elected official on Council until the transference of power. She has every right to vote on the lease as she feels fit. It is not wrong or unethical regardless of what the voters did on election day. Just because she is voting for something you do not want to see does not make it wrong.

I will agree that it would be likely be inappropriate to vote based on the public positions of the new council; however, this is politics. Maybe the new council would prefer to have the vote done before they get power; therefore, they would be able to blame the old council for the decision. Despite their public opposition, it would not be the first time a politician lied to the general public and they really want the deal to go through.
Sure. I bet the incoming mayor and council members are looking forward to firing staff and cutting services so that they can pay the AMF to Jamison. Politicians love making unpopular cuts to pay for financial commitments made by previous administrations.

But I think that discussions about the ethics of these "midnight regulations" are moot, because it seems highly improbable that such a scheme will survive the political and legal onslaught that is likely to ensue.

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11-09-2012, 12:55 PM
  #405
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Show of hands... how many posters here in this forum are actually Glendale residents?
... as rt states above, most fled long ago to the friendlier skys' of their own team page, and cant say that I blame them. Far as I know, two infrequent posters are residents of Glendale, a couple more who are regulars are former residents. Its a difficult situation. The fans are from all over the place, the majority of at least hf members from Scottsdale and environs. They dont really have a voice in whatever the COG does try-on, cant show their support or not at the polls. If ever there was a case for Amalgamation, surely this is it, the potential loss of a sports team affecting the entire region, east and west, the City of Phoenix itself. Even that possibility however is problematical, far too late in the day to be practicable, Phoenix itself in no position to offer financial or logistical support even if they were so inclined to do so, the State as well in no position to be offering much of anything, actually noticeable in their absence.

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11-09-2012, 01:01 PM
  #406
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Imagine. Between backstopping the NHL's losses and Balsillie's payoff, it's a swing of $100 million. That's worth about two years of property taxes to the city.

Incredible.

edit: it's also 20% of the imaginary $500 million loss that the city conjured up would be the result of the Coyotes leaving. Except it's real.
A wise old judge once told the city that money on a table weighs more than money on paper

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11-09-2012, 01:09 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Imagine. Between backstopping the NHL's losses and Balsillie's payoff, it's a swing of $100 million. That's worth about two years of property taxes to the city.

Incredible.

edit: it's also 20% of the imaginary $500 million loss that the city conjured up would be the result of the Coyotes leaving. Except it's real.
One wonders how the COG might have responded in the bankruptcy decision-making if they found out that the NHL plan would require them to find $15-20 million in subsidies annually in order to facilitate a local sale. It seems incomprehensible that the NHL didn't already know that the conditions for a local sale would include very large public subsidies from the COG. If the COG did know that such subsidies would be required, one wonders how they would have justified backing the NHL bid. Well, perhaps that is one of the reasons that the GWI has been chasing after COG records. Someone has to be responsible for the financial damage that this debacle has created for the COG. So far, it looks like a minimum of $375 million in direct payments as the cost for keeping the Coyotes for 20 years, along with forfeiting a range of revenue streams from the arena for all events, including parking.

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11-09-2012, 01:11 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
Quite a few on the Coyotes forum. No great mystery why they don't bother to represent themselves in these threads, however. If you guys were looking for perspective from Glendale residents, you've sure had a funny way of showing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... as rt states above, most fled long ago to the friendlier skys' of their own team page, and cant say that I blame them. Far as I know, two infrequent posters are residents of Glendale, a couple more who are regulars are former residents. Its a difficult situation. The fans are from all over the place, the majority of at least hf members from Scottsdale and environs. They dont really have a voice in whatever the COG does try-on, cant show their support or not at the polls. If ever there was a case for Amalgamation, surely this is it, the potential loss of a sports team affecting the entire region, east and west, the City of Phoenix itself. Even that possibility however is problematical, far too late in the day to be practicable, Phoenix itself in no position to offer financial or logistical support even if they were so inclined to do so, the State as well in no position to be offering much of anything, actually noticeable in their absence.
And this was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks K & RT

The reason I asked was... I don't recall the actual residents posting here. That's on me for not remembering. Yet, I could hardly blame them for not stepping foot in here. For sure.

EDIT: OK - There's one - NHLfan4life.

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11-09-2012, 01:11 PM
  #409
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Can we get a pre-game summary of what is (or isn't) going on with the upcoming court hearing today? Is Glendale gonig to be held in contempt? A mere spanking or could they face anything more severe? Is Tindall really going to want to continue getting dragged to these court hearings for the next little while in an effort to push the AMF through?
There's no way of knowing, it's up to the court. However, a colleague in Phoenix indicated that her understanding is that Bolick is making the argument today. If that is indeed true, it's not good news for Glendale. If you're the city, you certainly want Sitren across from you, not Bolick; and definitely not Dranias.

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11-09-2012, 01:32 PM
  #410
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One wonders how the COG might have responded in the bankruptcy decision-making if they found out that the NHL plan would require them to find $15-20 million in subsidies annually in order to facilitate a local sale. It seems incomprehensible that the NHL didn't already know that the conditions for a local sale would include very large public subsidies from the COG. If the COG did know that such subsidies would be required, one wonders how they would have justified backing the NHL bid. Well, perhaps that is one of the reasons that the GWI has been chasing after COG records. Someone has to be responsible for the financial damage that this debacle has created for the COG. So far, it looks like a minimum of $375 million in direct payments as the cost for keeping the Coyotes for 20 years, along with forfeiting a range of revenue streams from the arena for all events, including parking.
If they found out? They all knew as early as October 14, 2008. Shumway's dec even includes the powerpoint presentation that the NHL and Moyes gave to the city:

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...k-9488_110.pdf

They backed the NHL bid because the staff and council were fine with playing fast and loose with public resources as long as they got to sit in the city suite and take photos with Bettman et al. There's an old adage in government: It's better to have a few wealthy friends than a lot of poor ones.

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11-09-2012, 01:37 PM
  #411
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http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...prove-new.html

Glendale could try to approve new $300M Phoenix Coyotes deal before new mayor, council take over

City spokeswoman Julie Frisoni said no vote is set.

“The Coyotes agreement is not yet scheduled for a council workshop or meeting at this point. All sides are working diligently to bring this agreement forward, but it is not yet at the point of putting it before council,” Frisoni.


Opponents of the Coyotes deal want to stop a lame-duck council vote.

“After Tuesday’s elections, most people thought our present council would not close a $320 million hockey deal this late, and instead let the new council deal with this in January, 2013,” said Ken Jones, a community activist opposed to the city’s Coyotes deals.

Jones worries a new deal will be voted on by the lame duck mayor and council and wants to try to stop that from happening.


Snucks is always 2 days behind what we on HFB have already talked about.

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11-09-2012, 01:39 PM
  #412
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If they found out? They all knew as early as October 14, 2008. Shumway's dec even includes the powerpoint presentation that the NHL and Moyes gave to the city:

http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...k-9488_110.pdf

They backed the NHL bid because the staff and council were fine with playing fast and loose with public resources as long as they got to sit in the city suite and take photos with Bettman et al. There's an old adage in government: It's better to have a few wealthy friends than a lot of poor ones.
Sorry, by "they" I meant the mayor and council members. I am aware that Beasley was in on the NHL's expectations from the beginning. Subsequent information seems to make it clear that he wasn't always very forthcoming with Glendale's elected representatives.

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Old
11-09-2012, 01:41 PM
  #413
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Exactly - its not like this can't (or won't) happen somewhere else.

I dread the day decades down the road that Winnipeg has to build a new arena --- then what? Could the Glendale or Edmonton scenarios happen here? Of course. That's why people everywhere need to stay educated on how citizens across the continent are taken advantage of.


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You know what? Ever since that conartist Daryl Katz has been trying to bilk me out of my property tax dollars so that every citizen in Edmonton can essentially fully fund his team, you damn rights I care about what the citizens of Glendale are going through. They are being taken advantage of by the NHL, Jigmister and the COG, whether they like it or not.

All guilty parties can go rot in hell.

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11-09-2012, 01:46 PM
  #414
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Good points, See my previous post. Lets hope it doesn't happen.

Although the entire debacle is worthy of a University-level course or a book. Not sure what department, however. Would have to be an inter-disciplinary study in sociology, economics, politics, psychology, sports, urban planning,.....and cupcakes.

This is a lesson for every tax-paying citizen in every city, no matter if they are a "sports fan" or not.


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... I dunno about that mz. Who Are the Brain Police? Us? These are the comments from a recently defeated small-time narrow minded city councillor, the taste of defeat still fresh in her mouth. She thinks the City of Glendales gonna hand over $300M+ to Bow Tie Daddy, as in Lets Turn the Water Black, Hot Poop, aint happenin. But sure, Keep it Greasy Joyce. People'll cotton on real quick, and if they dont, they'll deserve what they get with Greg Jamison and the Return of the Son of Monster Magnet sucking every plug nickle out of the city coffers it possibly can until theres nothing left to take.

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11-09-2012, 01:46 PM
  #415
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Show of hands... how many posters here in this forum are actually Glendale residents?
Meh, overrated. Over on the CFL forum I deal with a lot hardcore Tiger-Cat fans who actually live in Hamilton, but are absolutely out of touch with the pulse of the city. They can't understand why there are so many in the city have a hate on for the owner Bob Young. No amount of patient explaination from me gets them to understand. I may as well be trying to teach calculus to a bunch of chimpanzees.

If this election teaches us anything, is that Glendale residents are far more aware and far more informed about what is going on in their city then anyone has given them credit for...

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11-09-2012, 01:46 PM
  #416
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... as rt states above, most fled long ago to the friendlier skys' of their own team page, and cant say that I blame them. Far as I know, two infrequent posters are residents of Glendale, a couple more who are regulars are former residents. Its a difficult situation. The fans are from all over the place, the majority of at least hf members from Scottsdale and environs. They dont really have a voice in whatever the COG does try-on, cant show their support or not at the polls. If ever there was a case for Amalgamation, surely this is it, the potential loss of a sports team affecting the entire region, east and west, the City of Phoenix itself.
I argue instead they suffer none of the ramifications and consequences of the decisions of the city for them to enjoy their entertainment. Glendale could make a deal to keep the team, the city could go to hellinahandbasket due to municipal bankruptcy, and people living in Scottsdale suffer zero from said situation. They're like the people arguing for something to exist and they don't have any risk if it goes belly up.

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11-09-2012, 01:50 PM
  #417
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As per previous replies, yes I do care, given it exemplifies a number of issues surrounding sport, economics and politics in our society.

Do I want the Coyotes to move to Quebec - yes, I do concede that bias. Am I still angry that the original Jets moved to PHX, yes I also admit that lingering disgust.

But do I wish the citizens of Glendale to pay for this error for generations as their city goes bankrupt? No, because it can happen anywhere.



Quote:
Originally Posted by aj8000 View Post
If you were a tax paying citizen in Glendale, I would support you.

I am willing to bet that you could not care less about the good citizens of Glendale. Once this whole "coyotes; thing is settled, you will never pay attention to the politics in Glendale ever again.

Clark is the current elected official on Council until the transference of power. She has every right to vote on the lease as she feels fit. It is not wrong or unethical regardless of what the voters did on election day. Just because she is voting for something you do not want to see does not make it wrong.

I will agree that it would be likely be inappropriate to vote based on the public positions of the new council; however, this is politics. Maybe the new council would prefer to have the vote done before they get power; therefore, they would be able to blame the old council for the decision. Despite their public opposition, it would not be the first time a politician lied to the general public and they really want the deal to go through.

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11-09-2012, 01:57 PM
  #418
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Meh, overrated. Over on the CFL forum I deal with a lot hardcore Tiger-Cat fans who actually live in Hamilton, but are absolutely out of touch with the pulse of the city. They can't understand why there are so many in the city have a hate on for the owner Bob Young. No amount of patient explaination from me gets them to understand. I may as well be trying to teach calculus to a bunch of chimpanzees.

If this election teaches us anything, is that Glendale residents are far more aware and far more informed about what is going on in their city then anyone has given them credit for...
I guess what I was looking for was the actual posters who live within the boundaries of the city. How massive cuts to city employment infrastructure, etc was promised not to occur (0 cuts) if the initiative stayed. Now all the ballyhoo because it passed means money available for the subsidy... the subsequent impacts to the actual residents. That sort of thing. Opposite - others chomping at the bit to see this thru because it doesn't directly impact them other than the team itself.

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11-09-2012, 01:58 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by mzappa View Post
Exactly - its not like this can't (or won't) happen somewhere else.

I dread the day decades down the road that Winnipeg has to build a new arena --- then what? Could the Glendale or Edmonton scenarios happen here? Of course. That's why people everywhere need to stay educated on how citizens across the continent are taken advantage of.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind a SMALL PERCENTAGE of public money going to funding pro-sports facilities. I would say a maximum of 25 to 30% is enough. I mean, I am all for pay a bit towards the improvement of the quality of life for my community because I want a great place to live. However, I draw the line when scheisters come to town and want us to fully fund their legacy projects, just cause.

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11-09-2012, 02:14 PM
  #420
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Good points, See my previous post. Lets hope it doesn't happen.

Although the entire debacle is worthy of a University-level course or a book. Not sure what department, however. Would have to be an inter-disciplinary study in sociology, economics, politics, psychology, sports, urban planning,.....and cupcakes.

This is a lesson for every tax-paying citizen in every city, no matter if they are a "sports fan" or not.
My Econ department at U of Manitoba had an Economics of Sports class. I took it and loved it. My prof's thesis was on the public funding of arenas and stadiums, and he served as consultant to the NHL in Winnipeg a few times.

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11-09-2012, 02:16 PM
  #421
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Did I miss this part? Are GWI and the COG battling it out now as we speak?
Case number CV2009-020757, for future reference...

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.go.../2012&length=7

http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov...2/m5488310.pdf

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11-09-2012, 02:20 PM
  #422
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http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...prove-new.html

Snucks is always 2 days behind what we on HFB have already talked about.


Quote:
Backers of a Glendale arena deal with prospective Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison want to get a new $300 million, 20-year agreement passed by the Glendale City Council before a new mayor and councilors take their seats in January.

That vote could happen Nov. 27, according to multiple sources familiar with the situation
Making it sound like it's "exclusive". Those multiple sources:

Cheswick, myself, Joyce Clark, and the entire listening audience of The Fan AM1060 from 5:15-5:30MT

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11-09-2012, 02:44 PM
  #423
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Nice to see Ken Jones is still out there taking a swing....

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11-09-2012, 03:21 PM
  #424
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Its too bad Ken Jones and Arthur Thurston either don't have or don't give out their email addresses when they address council. I would love to be able to email them and invite them to join this thread

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11-09-2012, 03:33 PM
  #425
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I'm convinced the NHL doesn't mind the Coyotes moving. They simply want to have Jamison as the owner, and want one of Seattle or Quebec to have a stadium ready and waiting. At that time, they'll have the owner in place that they want, they'll allow him to move the team where he chooses, and whatever markets are left after his decision, will receive expansion franchises as long they're ready to go. I don't think the NHL has any illusions that Phoenix may actually be salvageable. They need to stay put until everything else is situated in these other markets.

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