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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-07-2012, 10:25 AM
  #176
cheswick
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So to be clear where the new council stands for Coyotes "subsidies":
Remaining council:
Knaack: For
Martinez: For
Alvarez: Against

Changing council:
Clark: For --------> Chavira: Against
Scruggs: Against------> Weiers: Against
Liberman: Against-----> ??
Frate: For--------> ??

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11-07-2012, 10:26 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Comments from the new Mayor

http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...line-prog.html

Outgoing Mayor Elaine Scruggs had endorsed Weiers, who has called for a tighter rein on the budget and criticized a proposed Phoenix Coyotes deal that has the city paying millions to the potential buyer of the hockey team.

His message on Tuesday night to the Coyotes and the baseball teams at the city’s spring-training ballpark: “Glendale is not your cash register.”

“We all love the Coyotes and Cactus League but we cannot sacrifice our way of life so they can maintain theirs,” Weiers said.
Sounds like a mayor who clearly understands the term "fiscal responsability". Good choice.

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11-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #178
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Anyone know their email contacts? I volunteer to do some investigative research for the greater good of this thread!

EDIT...wondering if any of the AMF positions have changed upon their election.

Glendale hasn't updated their contact list.
http://www.glendaleaz.com/CityCouncil/members.cfm


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
So to be clear where the new council stands for Coyotes "subsidies":
Remaining council:
Knaack: For
Martinez: For
Alvarez: Against

Changing council:
Clark: For --------> Chavira: Against
Scruggs: Against------> Weiers: Against
Liberman: Against-----> ??
Frate: For--------> ??


Last edited by mzappa: 11-07-2012 at 10:40 AM.
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Old
11-07-2012, 10:49 AM
  #179
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and you know this how?
... well, in all fairness GS, Legend is basing his opinion on the last published report that the NHL hadnt accessed the funds, going on to say he'd be asking someone at AzCentral to check into the matter. I'd be very surprised to learn the league hadnt actually grabbed that the moment it became available (yep, GB down at BankAmerica's nearest ATM @12:01am in his Croc's & Housecoat furiously transferring MILLIONS from escrow to savings to checking), and still curious as to the disposition of the $6-$7M Glendale shorted the league on last year when they put the money in escrow.

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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
The last time it was reported on a couple of months ago, it was stated that the NHL hasn't touched it yet. My feeling is that the NHL didn't want it to count against it's HRR and look richer than they want to appear in negotiations with the NHLPA. I wouldn't be surprised if the NHL is waiting for the lockout to end before accessing it.
Thats an interesting theory, however, it's my understanding that matter's been resolved. When the league & PA sat down late last winter & early spring to go over the dispersal of escrow payments, Fehr had the bald faced temerity to claim Glendales $25M payments were HRR's, the NHLPA entitled to 57% of it. When I read that, just about blew out a lung laughing. Can you imagine? Gary Bettman mustve been absolutely apoplectic over that one huh? Too frikin much. Still makes me giggle... but its' possible. Your theory just may hold water, but like everything else concerned to this story, rather muddy. Cant see through it to find out the truth and thus far no ones asking about it but we here...

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Killion just won the internet today. well done
... cool. What'd I win?... Snuggly?

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11-07-2012, 10:50 AM
  #180
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Okay, let's imagine the unimaginable for a moment, here.

1. NHL and PA come to an agreement next week and announce that the season will open three weeks from then, which will be three weeks from Christmas.

2. Jamison actually has the money lined up and is ready to proceed with the purchase, only if the AMF structuring is ay least fairly reminiscent of what was previously agreed upon.

What does the NHL do about the Phoenix Coyotes?

The lease and AMF will require another vote prior to January, no?

Once that vote is conducted, there will almost certainly be another referendum, no? Will the NHL really be willing to wait around for this process, yet again? Knowing full well that this second effort will have a much greater chance of success? Also knowing that the COG is now completely out of the "rent to own" business and have made theirlast "hold that plane!" payment?

Can somebody help me understandhow Gary can justify this to the board, or how the board can justify this to themselves?

I simply cannot see the city of Glendale as ever being capable of actually coming to a resolution on the Coyotes matter. I think it is beyond the city to handle it. Fine, fine they pull a flybynight,last ditch vote on a new lease/AMF in December, just before the new council is sworn in. Then there is a referendum which takes weeks. Then the referendum is successful and it is referred to voters on a GOD KNOWS WHEN ballot. I mean, Damn. We will be wrapping up another season by that point, the league will still own the team, and this time, they won't be collecting anymoney from the city.

I want the Coyotes to stay, but I'm definitely failing to understand this situation properly. Can anyone help?

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11-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
Okay, let's imagine the unimaginable for a moment, here.

1. NHL and PA come to an agreement next week and announce that the season will open three weeks from then, which will be three weeks from Christmas.

2. Jamison actually has the money lined up and is ready to proceed with the purchase, only if the AMF structuring is ay least fairly reminiscent of what was previously agreed upon.

I want the Coyotes to stay, but I'm definitely failing to understand this situation properly. Can anyone help?
I'll try & "help". Applying some cold as darkest space Spockian Logic & Reason to the matter, just as soon as Ive consumed the rest of my morning constitutional bottle of Remi' washed down with about 2ounces of espresso.... ahhh, there we go........................................... where were we now? Oh ya.... Got a smoke rt? Gimme...

1. I dont see that happening.
2. ....ditto

... just dont see an attempt at a closing taking place at all until the New Year, incoming Mayor & Council Members taking their seats. In the interim, Skeete likely instructed to once again take the last offer off the table, sharpen the pencil, return to negotiating starting & finishing at app $6M per annum in AMF, give Jamison an "out" (48mnth minimum, 12mnth notification); take it or leave it. Anything else is likely to engender much hand wringing & hair pulling, along with a Referendum, and if by some remote chance that gets voted up, Goldwater on the case like a FatBoy on the last M&M in the pack. Savvy?... as far as Im concerned, until Greg Jamison "get's real", divulging his plans, who his investors are, he's simply a Spook, a Pretender, a Strawman for the NHL. No way no how does this make any sense otherwise.

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11-07-2012, 11:27 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
...

Can somebody help me understand how Gary can justify this to the board, or how the board can justify this to themselves?
...
First off all, I think Jamison/Glendale AMF negotiation is one thing completely different from what NHL want/can do with the Coyotes.

We can all speculate if Jamison will buy the team or not, if Glendale will give 0, 5 or $15M a year.

Honestly, taking your scenario (Dec 1st season start ?) it's too late to move the team and Jamison definitely cannot close the AMF nego in 3 weeks.

That being said, I think the NHL will put the Coyotes on a strict minimum spendings, no ads, cheaper hotels while traveling, less personnel and so on for the season (shorter one so could be accepted easier).

They could if they decide to sell the team to someone who wants to move it, they could tell Jamison to give up and negotiate with lets say PKP to buy the Coyotes now, play one last season in Arizona (once again, a 60ish games season, so less expenses and all) as a condition of selling him the team. Yes an owner in Quebec, or Seattle or Toronto might not want loosing 40-50M for the season, but it's either buy the Coyotes for $170M + $50M Relofee + $50M 2012-13 expenses or you won't get a team ever, not even an expansion one.

That year gives time to other city to get ready and 2013-14 opens up in a new city.

So to resume, I think NHL won't have choice but to accept that Glendale won't give them a single penny anymore, and they can either stay in Az at their own expense or sell/move elsewhere, but as I said, I doubt any city, even Quebec city could and would take an NHL team with 3 weeks notice.

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11-07-2012, 11:35 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I'll try & "help". Applying some cold as darkest space Spockian Logic & Reason to the matter, just as soon as Ive consumed the rest of my morning constitutional bottle of Remi' washed down with about 2ounces of espresso.... ahhh, there we go........................................... where were we now? Oh ya.... Got a smoke rt? Gimme...

1. I dont see that happening.
2. ....ditto

... just dont see an attempt at a closing taking place at all until the New Year, incoming Mayor & Council Members taking their seats. In the interim, Skeete likely instructed to once again take the last offer off the table, sharpen the pencil, return to negotiating starting & finishing at app $6M per annum in AMF, give Jamison an "out" (48mnth minimum, 12mnth notification); take it or leave it. Anything else is likely to engender much hand wringing & hair pulling, along with a Referendum, and if by some remote chance that gets voted up, Goldwater on the case like a FatBoy on the last M&M in the pack. Savvy?... as far as Im concerned, until Greg Jamison "get's real", divulging his plans, who his investors are, he's simply a Spook, a Pretender, a Strawman for the NHL. No way no how does this make any sense otherwise.
Sounds pretty gloomy, Killion.

Previously, I have been skeptical of attempts at a local sale due to unrealistic financial plans (CFD, bond sale for parking, etc.) and the legal challenge (gift clause). However, there was always political support for a generous subsidy from Glendale city council. However, that political support has now evaporated. The incoming mayor is not only insistent on fiscal prudence, but he also does not seem inclined to put up with Jamison's curious and suspicious cat and mouse game about his investors. The majority of elected council members now oppose the rich subsidy contained in the lease negotiated with Jamison. Some local businesses are likely to be on the warpath after seeing their initiative to overturn the sales tax increase defeated, with much of the revenue flowing into Jamison's AMF. The police and firefighter unions didn't fight to retain the sales tax increase so that much of it would support Jamison, and they would still see substantial cuts in staff and services. So even if the lame duck council hurriedly passes the Jamison lease, it seems likely to be facing a referendum challenge, with a broad spectrum of local opposition, including the incoming mayor and the majority of city council members.

If the NHL is willing to drop the sale price, and Jamison's investors are willing to rework the lease to a much more reasonable AMF, then a local sale might still be possible. If not, I think the tide has finally turned in Glendale and a local sale won't be possible. In that case, I think the NHL will either relocate the team for what might be left of the season, or manage the Coyotes for a final season.

If they were serious, the NHL and Jamison should have finalized a deal a year ago.

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11-07-2012, 11:37 AM
  #184
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Plausible. Hopefully that sale is to Quebec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
First off all, I think Jamison/Glendale AMF negotiation is one thing completely different from what NHL want/can do with the Coyotes.

We can all speculate if Jamison will buy the team or not, if Glendale will give 0, 5 or $15M a year.

Honestly, taking your scenario (Dec 1st season start ?) it's too late to move the team and Jamison definitely cannot close the AMF nego in 3 weeks.

That being said, I think the NHL will put the Coyotes on a strict minimum spendings, no ads, cheaper hotels while traveling, less personnel and so on for the season (shorter one so could be accepted easier).

They could if they decide to sell the team to someone who wants to move it, they could tell Jamison to give up and negotiate with lets say PKP to buy the Coyotes now, play one last season in Arizona (once again, a 60ish games season, so less expenses and all) as a condition of selling him the team. Yes an owner in Quebec, or Seattle or Toronto might not want loosing 40-50M for the season, but it's either buy the Coyotes for $170M + $50M Relofee + $50M 2012-13 expenses or you won't get a team ever, not even an expansion one.

That year gives time to other city to get ready and 2013-14 opens up in a new city.

So to resume, I think NHL won't have choice but to accept that Glendale won't give them a single penny anymore, and they can either stay in Az at their own expense or sell/move elsewhere, but as I said, I doubt any city, even Quebec city could and would take an NHL team with 3 weeks notice.

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11-07-2012, 11:43 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
First off all, I think Jamison/Glendale AMF negotiation is one thing completely different from what NHL want/can do with the Coyotes.

We can all speculate if Jamison will buy the team or not, if Glendale will give 0, 5 or $15M a year.

Honestly, taking your scenario (Dec 1st season start ?) it's too late to move the team and Jamison definitely cannot close the AMF nego in 3 weeks.

That being said, I think the NHL will put the Coyotes on a strict minimum spendings, no ads, cheaper hotels while traveling, less personnel and so on for the season (shorter one so could be accepted easier).

They could if they decide to sell the team to someone who wants to move it, they could tell Jamison to give up and negotiate with lets say PKP to buy the Coyotes now, play one last season in Arizona (once again, a 60ish games season, so less expenses and all) as a condition of selling him the team. Yes an owner in Quebec, or Seattle or Toronto might not want loosing 40-50M for the season, but it's either buy the Coyotes for $170M + $50M Relofee + $50M 2012-13 expenses or you won't get a team ever, not even an expansion one.

That year gives time to other city to get ready and 2013-14 opens up in a new city.

So to resume, I think NHL won't have choice but to accept that Glendale won't give them a single penny anymore, and they can either stay in Az at their own expense or sell/move elsewhere, but as I said, I doubt any city, even Quebec city could and would take an NHL team with 3 weeks notice.
I expect that the NHL has realized that a local sale in Glendale might not be possible, with the two possible options: managing the Coyotes in Glendale for another year or relocating immediately. If the second option is contemplated, I would imagine that they have already drawn up the deal and local preparations have been made.

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11-07-2012, 12:00 PM
  #186
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Just posting comments from those that were in the running.

http://www.yourwestvalley.com/glenda...a4bcf887a.html

“The main thing is to heal and fix our city, and we can’t do any of that without the entire council having a lot of positive and constructive communication with each other,” Chavira said.

“It’s time for us to move forward and get the city back on track,” Chavira said



Won't be getting any comments from this one.

Clark said she wouldn’t be available for comment.

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11-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
First off all, I think Jamison/Glendale AMF negotiation is one thing completely different from what NHL want/can do with the Coyotes.

We can all speculate if Jamison will buy the team or not, if Glendale will give 0, 5 or $15M a year.

Honestly, taking your scenario (Dec 1st season start ?) it's too late to move the team and Jamison definitely cannot close the AMF nego in 3 weeks.

That being said, I think the NHL will put the Coyotes on a strict minimum spendings, no ads, cheaper hotels while traveling, less personnel and so on for the season (shorter one so could be accepted easier).

.
This reminds me of a bit from "Major League"
Wesley Snipes (Willie Mays Hayes). "This is great!....A 747 to Milwaukee....."
Airport ground crew. "That's not your plane....That is your plane"

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11-07-2012, 12:02 PM
  #188
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Sounds pretty gloomy, Killion.... If they were serious, the NHL and Jamison should have finalized a deal a year ago.
... yes, I believe it is decidedly gloomy Whileee. I didnt read the vote to approve the tax increases as a vote of support to pay Jamison kabillions to manage the arena, retain the Coyotes; I read it as a vote to retain basic services, spend the money on infrastructure, Fire, Police, Pools, Libraries. Safety, cultural & quality of life issues. Indeed, Clark's defeat indicates to me that the voters are pretty much fed up with the situation. Either cut a deal that works for all parties concerned thats above board, open & transparent or get outta town already. That Jamison has been unable to close really since June when the COG approved the Lease is indicative of one thing and one thing only insofar as Im concerned; he doesnt have the money, and or if he does, look no farther than the Tohono's which in and of itself is beyond contentious & provocative, reason for keeping stum.

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11-07-2012, 12:10 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes, I believe it is decidedly gloomy Whileee. I didnt read the vote to approve the tax increases as a vote of support to pay Jamison kabillions to manage the arena, retain the Coyotes; I read it as a vote to retain basic services, spend the money on infrastructure, Fire, Police, Pools, Libraries. Safety, cultural & quality of life issues. Indeed, Clark's defeat indicates to me that the voters are pretty much fed up with the situation. Either cut a deal that works for all parties concerned thats above board, open & transparent or get outta town already. That Jamison has been unable to close really since June when the COG approved the Lease is indicative of one thing and one thing only insofar as Im concerned; he doesnt have the money, and or if he does, look no farther than the Tohono's which in and of itself is beyond contentious & provocative, reason for keeping stum.
We have all read and heard the same thing. The money is for all those good things that you mentioned and not the AMF... BUT, as recent events have shown, the CoG is more than prepared / capable of a little creative accounting and looking the other way to put the money where they "really" want it to go as opposed to where they say it is going. As we have seen, the CoG is NOT re-known for it's transparency and accountability. This election just might change how this city operates.

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11-07-2012, 12:11 PM
  #190
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I expect that the NHL has realized that a local sale in Glendale might not be possible, with the two possible options: managing the Coyotes in Glendale for another year or relocating immediately. If the second option is contemplated, I would imagine that they have already drawn up the deal and local preparations have been made.
If indeed the Lockout is resolved by Christmas, an abbreviated season, I think it about 99.9% likely the team stays put, lame Ducks or not, sold in the Spring to QC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post

“The main thing is to heal and fix our city, and we can’t do any of that without the entire council having a lot of positive and constructive communication with each other.... It’s time for us to move forward and get the city back on track,” Chavira said...
... ya, and as per the new Mayors' comments as well. Sure they get the tax increase, but c'mon here, some serious problems that need to have some serious money thrown at them. That does not include an out of site Arena Management Fee, propping up Greg Jamison, the NHL, retaining the franchise at the expense of all else. Just not how its supposed to work. Untenable.

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11-07-2012, 12:13 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes, I believe it is decidedly gloomy Whileee. I didnt read the vote to approve the tax increases as a vote of support to pay Jamison kabillions to manage the arena, retain the Coyotes; I read it as a vote to retain basic services, spend the money on infrastructure, Fire, Police, Pools, Libraries. Safety, cultural & quality of life issues. Indeed, Clark's defeat indicates to me that the voters are pretty much fed up with the situation. Either cut a deal that works for all parties concerned thats above board, open & transparent or get outta town already. That Jamison has been unable to close really since June when the COG approved the Lease is indicative of one thing and one thing only insofar as Im concerned; he doesnt have the money, and or if he does, look no farther than the Tohono's which in and of itself is beyond contentious & provocative, reason for keeping stum.
I always thought it was "schtum". or "stumm".

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11-07-2012, 12:14 PM
  #192
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... As we have seen, the CoG is NOT re-known for it's transparency and accountability.
... thats more than accurate, fair enough. But until the incoming prove otherwise, Im going to give them the benefit of the doubt, that its a brand new bright shiny day in Glendale.

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11-07-2012, 12:20 PM
  #193
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... cool. What'd I win?... Snuggly?
Ohhhhh, I want one too....

Every time someone posts a picture of that promotion, I get this pang of jealousy...

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11-07-2012, 12:20 PM
  #194
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Color me legitimately surprised that the tax increase survived a public vote. Would've easily taken a bet that the general electorate in Arizona would've easily supported a tax repeal given the mood during this past presidential election, regardless of how the supporters of the tax would've framed it.

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11-07-2012, 12:25 PM
  #195
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I always thought it was "schtum". or "stumm".
... not according to www.wordreference.com. See, I look stuff up before posting because I know I'm as more likely as not gonna be called out on it. No matter how minute.... then when when I do just make stuff up, log-in to wiki & revise pages, changing names, dates, historical facts. Make up movies that were never made, books that were never written, sometimes in my posts using copious footnote references to said fictions, providing links that dont work, dead-ender's to ERROR 535 n' whatnot.


Last edited by Killion: 11-07-2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: revising wordreference definition...
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11-07-2012, 12:34 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... not according to wordreference.com. See, I look stuff up before posting because I know I'm as more likely as not gonna be called out on it. No matter how minute.... then when when I do just make stuff up, log-in to wiki & revise pages, changing names, dates, historical facts. Make up movies that were never made, books that were never written, sometimes in my posts using copious footnote references to said fictions, providing links that dont work, ERROR 535 n' whatnot.
"The phrase keep schtum (variously spelled 'keep stumm', 'keep 'keep shtoom', 'keep schtum' etc.) is British and fairly recent. It has the sound of a Yiddish phrase but it is more likely that it originated in the UK criminal community. The earliest citation of it is in Frank Norman's, book Bang to rights: an account of prison life, 1958:

"I think it's much better to keep shtoom."
"You can always shtoomup if any screws are earholeing."

Source(s):

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/21570…"


I guess it all depends on the source or on who's sitting on Glendale City council.

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11-07-2012, 12:54 PM
  #197
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Color me legitimately surprised that the tax increase survived a public vote. Would've easily taken a bet that the general electorate in Arizona would've easily supported a tax repeal given the mood during this past presidential election, regardless of how the supporters of the tax would've framed it.
I predicted it here a few threads back. This would stick because it has the police and fire fighters attached to it. People I've spoken to said that a .7% increase is nothing compared to losing services.

From what I can tell around here, Joyce Clark was defeated because she didn't have the votes in the first place. It wasn't a statement from the public as to her actions in the CC, but more that she really never had any backing in her district.

Now that the people of Glendale have spoken, I hope this thing moves quickly but I know the reality is it will never end. It only changes direction.

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11-07-2012, 12:54 PM
  #198
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...but it is more likely that it originated in the UK criminal community. The earliest citation of it is in Frank Norman's, book Bang to rights: an account of prison life, 1958:
...indeed it did. I was based in the UK for quite some time priessingg. Quite familiar with the words origins. Heard it all too frequently. Guys who threw around terms like that always made me nervous. Like I was Ray Winstone in Sexy Beast or somethin. Ben Kingsley showing up at your villa on the Costa del Sol. Uninvited. Psychopaths'. Far worse than the Krays.

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11-07-2012, 12:57 PM
  #199
JF55JF
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Jamison still showing up in Glendale today like Clark said?

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Old
11-07-2012, 01:12 PM
  #200
Mightygoose
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If I'm not mistaken, this past Saturday was the 3rd year Anniversary of the NHL purchasing the team from BK.

At times, it's hard to beleive it's gone on this long (plus the time in bankrupcy prior)

3+ years...geez this saga is old enough to finish potty training now....

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