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Prospect Thread - Part XII

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11-25-2012, 03:10 PM
  #276
arsmaster
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
I really don't feel the need for personal attacks here. I brought up some pretty valid points. Were you one of the people saying that Patrick White still had a shot as an NHLer when he was a 4th liner in college as well? Or that it didn't matter that Yann Sauve wasn't producing in junior because he still had time to turn it around? Because I certainly remember when I said they had no hope of making the NHL I was told by people like you that I should stop posting on the forum, I'm an idiot, etc etc.
Honestly, are you watching these guys...or just box score scouting?

Jensen is leading a men's league team in goals.

Gaunce was injured, if he hadn't been he'd probably be in line for an invite to the WJ camp.

Corrado is building on last season where he was a top 5 D-man in that entire league.

Schroeder, Tanev and Kassian are clearly the best players on the Wolves, nobody can doubt this....wish we could see them in a better situation than we have down there, but they are performing and will likely be on the Canucks next time they play. PS. Tanev was the #5 here already, hoping this 22 year old isn't washed up already and can't improve.

Seems you just want hype.

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11-25-2012, 03:10 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
I really don't feel the need for personal attacks here. I brought up some pretty valid points. Were you one of the people saying that Patrick White still had a shot as an NHLer when he was a 4th liner in college as well? Or that it didn't matter that Yann Sauve wasn't producing in junior because he still had time to turn it around? Because I certainly remember when I said they had no hope of making the NHL I was told by people like you that I should stop posting on the forum, I'm an idiot, etc etc.
Maybe his problem is with the fact that you're scouting by stats (and not even advanced stats, but just by points). Stats wouldn't tell you that Weber was going to turn into a Top 5 defenseman or that Lindstrom was going to become one of the greatest defensemen to ever play the game. Stats wouldn't tell you that Lucic could become a Top 6 forward and one of the best PWFs in the game. Stats wouldn't tell you that Brendl and Daigle were going to bust. Or that Alex Burrows would make the NHL. At age 25, Franzen had 14 points in the SEL — did you see him becoming one of the best play-off performers in the NHL just a few seasons later?

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11-25-2012, 03:12 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Why? He didn't say a single controversial thing.
I'd suggest its because he is scouting via stats sheets.

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11-25-2012, 03:26 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
How about some rational discussion on this. I'm not trolling. I am bringing up genuine concerns. HF has us ranked 28th in the league as far as organizational rankings for prospects, so I hardly think I'm making claims that are absurd. It's these types of responses that have prevented me from posting on this site very much over the past few years. When HF used to have rational, grounded discussion, CDC posters have now for the most part taken over the Canucks section of this board.
I don't disagree with your ranking, I disagree with the doom and gloom, and your evaluation of several of the players you listed, like your absurd claim that Tanev will never be anything more than a #5, or that Lack's less than stellar play over 13 games played should be considered "regression". 17 games into a season is still too soon to be claiming that the sky is falling.

If Tanev can continue to be close to .5 ppg in the AHL, that should be seen as a success, and considering all the other things he does well with and without the puck, it is a good indication he can be a top 4 defenseman in the NHL. A player doesn't have to amass a ridiculous amount of points to be valuable.

Your claims about Gaunce are a bit premature, as well. He has just returned from injury, and plays for a offensively starved team. He also likely projects to be a more defensive-minded 3rd line centre—if you're expecting him to set the world on fire with his offensive numbers, your expectations are too high.

Jensen has hit a bit of a wall, but is still doing quite well considering it's his first year of pro hockey. And, guess what, shootout winners do count as points in the SEL, so to take them out of his point totals is completely ridiculous. 12 points in 23 games, especially considering his goals/assists ratio, is quite good for a 19 year old rookie. He's shown that he has the tools to be an offensive contributor, which, from a 29th overall pick, is something to be excited about, and is more of an indication of his value than his marginal improvement in his final OHL season, on a team where all the major players took a dip in point totals—something was clearly wrong in Oshawa.

Corrado is also doing quite well, and sits among players that were drafted much higher than him and are considered top prospects. He was a runner of for defensman of the year last season, and is continuing to improve. To even get a nomination when he wasn't putting up many points is a testament to how good the rest of his game is. The points are a bonus. And he was a 5th rounder.

You're expectations for some of these players are simply too high. There is a lot to be optimistic about.


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11-25-2012, 03:30 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
How about some rational discussion on this. I'm not trolling. I am bringing up genuine concerns. HF has us ranked 28th in the league as far as organizational rankings for prospects, so I hardly think I'm making claims that are absurd. It's these types of responses that have prevented me from posting on this site very much over the past few years. When HF used to have rational, grounded discussion, CDC posters have now for the most part taken over the Canucks section of this board.
You're asking for rational discussion while trying to discuss, and judge, players while failing to mention any elements of those players' games, how they play, what their problems are, etc. It goes both ways.

If you want actual discussion, give some points for actual discussion.
What tendencies in Jensen's game are problematic to you?
Does Corrado have poor gap control? Does he not see the ice well? Does he get drawn out of position? Force the wrong play at the line?

If you're trying to start a discussion, the burden is on you to give people something to discuss.

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11-25-2012, 03:40 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Pretty easy to tell you haven't watched any of these guys play.

I don't care about other teams, we watch hundreds of guys tear up junior hockey...lots don't make it pro.

I'll just take Corrado and Gaunce, they play on low scoring teams - Corrado is 2nd on his team in scoring, the next closest d-man has less than 5 points. gaunce missed time with an injury and is still among his teams leading scorers.

Not sure what you're reasoning for this post was, but we know we're not a great prospect pool....we haven't picked in the top 10 since 08' our 07' draft was probably the worst draft of all time, 06' we took Grabner and in 05' our pick died....some people may call those excuses (and they are to a point), but we've come along was since 07' and YOU CAN NEVER JUDGE A PROSPECT UNTIL 5 YEARS AFTER HIS DRAFT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Honestly, are you watching these guys...or just box score scouting?

Jensen is leading a men's league team in goals.

Gaunce was injured, if he hadn't been he'd probably be in line for an invite to the WJ camp.

Corrado is building on last season where he was a top 5 D-man in that entire league.

Schroeder, Tanev and Kassian are clearly the best players on the Wolves, nobody can doubt this....wish we could see them in a better situation than we have down there, but they are performing and will likely be on the Canucks next time they play. PS. Tanev was the #5 here already, hoping this 22 year old isn't washed up already and can't improve.

Seems you just want hype.
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Maybe his problem is with the fact that you're scouting by stats (and not even advanced stats, but just by points). Stats wouldn't tell you that Weber was going to turn into a Top 5 defenseman or that Lindstrom was going to become one of the greatest defensemen to ever play the game. Stats wouldn't tell you that Lucic could become a Top 6 forward and one of the best PWFs in the game. Stats wouldn't tell you that Brendl and Daigle were going to bust. Or that Alex Burrows would make the NHL. At age 25, Franzen had 14 points in the SEL — did you see him becoming one of the best play-off performers in the NHL just a few seasons later?
Hey, I'll be the first to admit- I have seen very little of the games of our prospects this season. I have only seen 2 Wolves games and Corrado play a couple of times only. And hey, I actually liked what I saw from Kassian and Schroeder on the Moose, and Corrado looked solid when I watched him as well.

It is a valid point to come at me and say that I haven't watched most of these guys enough this year, because it is true. But let's not get lost in the main point I am trying to make. GENERALLY SPEAKING, (and you could eassssily do a statistical regression on this if you wanted), producing at an extremely high level at the junior and AHL ranks is a necessity to becoming a point-producing player in the NHL. However, it is not sufficient and many of these players' games are not able to translate to the NHL at all. There are exceptions to the rule, as you mentioned in Lucic, Weber, Franzen, etc. But let's not use those as reference points when our ENTIRE prospect base is struggling statistically. To say that watching the scoreboard is useless in assessing how well a player is playing over a large sample size of games is absurd, frankly.

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11-25-2012, 03:44 PM
  #282
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It sounds like you're basically trying to argue that the Canucks lack blue chip, top-end prospects. I'd be shocked if you'll get any disagreement from anyone on that. That's what happens when a team drafts low, trades draft picks to bolster the big club, has generally poor scouting, and is recovering from a period of astoundingly bad drafting.

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11-25-2012, 03:51 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
It sounds like you're basically trying to argue that the Canucks lack blue chip, top-end prospects. I'd be shocked if you'll get any disagreement from anyone on that. That's what happens when a team drafts low, trades draft picks to bolster the big club, has generally poor scouting, and is recovering from a period of astoundingly bad drafting.
Thats clay's point, and I agree.

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11-25-2012, 03:54 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
It sounds like you're basically trying to argue that the Canucks lack blue chip, top-end prospects. I'd be shocked if you'll get any disagreement from anyone on that. That's what happens when a team drafts low, trades draft picks to bolster the big club, has generally poor scouting, and is recovering from a period of astoundingly bad drafting.
Fair enough, and to respond to your other post above; I don't think that bringing up statistical concerns can be labelled as an irrational starting point for discussion, even if I haven't seen them play much. Watching the scoreboard itself frankly does a better job at predicting success and failure than amateur arm chair scouts (me included) trying to sift out who will and won't make it by watching games from their computer, IMO. I was not trying to claim I was an expert on these players, only that there is MAJOR cause for concern of our future when looking at statistics as a starting point. And yes, a lack of blue chip prospects is one of the points I was trying to make in my discussion, but I wasn't trying to create shock value. A lack of blue chip prospects translates to a legitimate cause for concern for our future as our core ages. I fear the dog days of the late 90s will hit once again as the Sedins drop off.

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11-25-2012, 04:00 PM
  #285
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I'd personally agree with both sides of this debate. Clay was rather pessimistic about the progress of players like Lack, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Kassian, etc..as there's definitely some (hopefully all) keepers among them. On the other hand, the Canucks probably not only have one of the 5 worst prospect pools....they probably have one of the 3 worst prospect pools in the league. Every team has a bunch of prospects to feel good about, and some from each team will make the NHL. We underestimate the other 29 prospect pools since we don't follow them as closely as ours.

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Old
11-25-2012, 04:02 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
But let's not use those as reference points when our ENTIRE prospect base is struggling statistically. To say that watching the scoreboard is useless in assessing how well a player is playing over a large sample size of games is absurd, frankly.
Well, it just happens that all our prospects are playing on not so hot teams. Stats are not going to account for that. Gaunce can't help that his team is a trap team that relies on their solid defensive play and goaltender to win games. He's still leading forwards in points despite missing 30% of the season.

Having seen him play then and now, Kassian has improved by a country-mile compared to last season. He stays in play more consistently, brings his physicality most games and is better polished defensively and offensively. But the Wolves are simply not as good as Rochester and are not very good offensively. Our prospects there are doing quite well with what they have. Arniel is not helping things one bit by shuffling lines every single game and generally not having a clue as to what he's doing. The only truly disappointing prospect has been Rodin... and perhaps to an extent Connauton, if you can say that about a 3rd rounder.

Corrado ranked Top 5 in OHL last season while producing barely any offense. Again, he's on a low scoring team where he doesn't have much to work with. His production is great given those constraints. You instead completely dismissed Corrado based on nothing more than his stats, when everyone that has seen him (including Gillis and AV) has thought that he's more than good enough to already challenge for a spot on the big club. There's a reason Canucks marked him as eligible for recall if the season does start up again.

Jensen is in the same boat. He's playing on one of the worst teams in the SEL and is leading his team in goals. There's just not a lot of assists to be picked up on that team so his points are what they are.

Going by your scouting example, I guess the Devils should start panicking about what Henrique, Larsson and Josefsson are doing. Same goes for the Jets with Burmistrov.


Last edited by Tiranis: 11-25-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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11-25-2012, 04:14 PM
  #287
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I just don't know why we even write anyone off 15-25% of each leagues season complete. There are so many players and prospects that have great starts to a season and fade. Let the kids play an entire year before you judge.

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11-25-2012, 04:33 PM
  #288
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I don't think you are wrong in saying we are bottom 5 in prospects and when you look at the future beyond the Sedins, it becomes a terrifying vision. Drafting/Scouting can be better, but at least, there is some improvement. Not enough certainly. That I agree with.

But i disagree with some of your reasoning.

As stated, Tanev is already a #5 on this NHL team. I think he can become a solid top 4 d man in the coming years, he is still young and and still developing. I challenge your Krajicek comparison with a poor man's Paul Martin. Tanev is already a good defensive defenseman that has an excellent outlet pass and reads the game very well. If he ever adds a shot that we can call an asset, that's icing on the cake.

Very harsh critique on Corrado when he's recognized as one of the best defensemen in the OHL by coaches and avid followers. He was named the OHL defensemen of the month (not week) for October. November hasn't even passed yet. He is 12th in OHL defensemen scoring BTW and is on pace to shatter his previous career highs, statistically. I counter that he has some good tools and has shown enough to get excited about. How he seamlessly adapted to play in the AHL last season should give you some excitement.

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11-25-2012, 04:34 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
Fair enough, and to respond to your other post above; I don't think that bringing up statistical concerns can be labelled as an irrational starting point for discussion, even if I haven't seen them play much. Watching the scoreboard itself frankly does a better job at predicting success and failure than amateur arm chair scouts (me included) trying to sift out who will and won't make it by watching games from their computer, IMO. I was not trying to claim I was an expert on these players, only that there is MAJOR cause for concern of our future when looking at statistics as a starting point. And yes, a lack of blue chip prospects is one of the points I was trying to make in my discussion, but I wasn't trying to create shock value. A lack of blue chip prospects translates to a legitimate cause for concern for our future as our core ages. I fear the dog days of the late 90s will hit once again as the Sedins drop off.
Yes, but that doesn't really give much in the way of fuel for a real discussion, and I don't think it's all that surprising that people aren't very enthusiastic to discuss that stuff.

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11-25-2012, 04:51 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
Have to go ahead and say that our prospect pool is among the bottom 5 in the league, easily.

Our top prospects are simply not producing at a promising level whatsoever. Prospects who turn into impact players, generally speaking, show signs of dominance at their level before making an impact in the NHL.

Tanev: he will not be anything more than a #5 guy in the NHL. Has no shot, limited offensive skills, and is not agressive/big enough to make an impact as a defensive defenseman. Reminds me a lot of Lukas Krajicek: can skate and is smart around the ice, but lacks to much to make him a top 4 guy.

Lack: I still have a lot of hope for Lack and think that he can still be a solid NHLer, but the regression this year is a bit worrisome.

Schroeder: Has shown flashes, but again has CONSTANTLY disappointed in every year since being drafted. Considering his size, he should be dominating the AHL at this point if he was to project into a steady NHLer. I don't care who who is playing with, this is the AHL and he should be finding ways to convert.

Kassian: The good thing about Kassian is that he will make the NHL in some facet regardless considering his size and physical tools. However, it is worrying that his production has declined from last year in the AHL, and my hopes for him to develop into an impact top 6 forward are coming into question.

Corrado: Personally think it is quite pathetic how much attention he is getting from our fan base and shows how weak our prospect pool is, especially on defence. He has 19 points in 27 games. This is absolutely nothing special for a d-man in his final year in junior. He started out strong, but has now fallen out of the top 15 in defencemen OHL scoring. He has some good tools, but has not shown enough to get excited about. Maybe he turns into a top 4 if he brings it all together, but it is kind of sad that this is our best defensive prospect.

Connauton: Stuggles severely in the defensive end and his production has regressed this year. A pure offensive 22 year old d-man should be producing at the AHL level by now if that is to translate to the NHL.

Jensen: Weak year last year in the OHL (not much of an improvement from his draft year) and 10 points in 23 games when you take away the 2 shootout goals counting is absolutely nothing to get excited about.

Gaunce: 12 points in 16 games for a first rounder? Not good enough...at all.


See the trend? A lot of regression or simply overhyping when there has been nothing to show promise. Canucks homers will obviously bash me for this post as they always do, but any objective critic would easily find 25 teams with better prospect pools than we have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Pretty easy to tell you haven't watched any of these guys play.

I don't care about other teams, we watch hundreds of guys tear up junior hockey...lots don't make it pro.

I'll just take Corrado and Gaunce, they play on low scoring teams - Corrado is 2nd on his team in scoring, the next closest d-man has less than 5 points. gaunce missed time with an injury and is still among his teams leading scorers.

Not sure what you're reasoning for this post was, but we know we're not a great prospect pool....we haven't picked in the top 10 since 08' our 07' draft was probably the worst draft of all time, 06' we took Grabner and in 05' our pick died....some people may call those excuses (and they are to a point), but we've come along was since 07' and YOU CAN NEVER JUDGE A PROSPECT UNTIL 5 YEARS AFTER HIS DRAFT.
This for the above pretty much, will say more after I talk about the below.

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Originally Posted by Rageinthecage View Post
I'd personally agree with both sides of this debate. Clay was rather pessimistic about the progress of players like Lack, Tanev, Corrado, Jensen, Gaunce, Kassian, etc..as there's definitely some (hopefully all) keepers among them. On the other hand, the Canucks probably not only have one of the 5 worst prospect pools....they probably have one of the 3 worst prospect pools in the league. Every team has a bunch of prospects to feel good about, and some from each team will make the NHL. We underestimate the other 29 prospect pools since we don't follow them as closely as ours.
I don't look at our prospect pool with nearly as much doom and gloom as most here seem to. For sure we have zero Blue Chip prospects, but many who i think will be very good NHLers.

Hell One that was missed, Patrick McNally, was one of the best Defensman in the confrence last year as a Freshman, I have only seen a bit of him, but he seems to have good hockey sense and coming along nicely.

Jordan Schreoder to me looks to be a lock to be a very solid NHL player. sure he has questions about his size, but he has always head that, and played against men for some time now. He put up better ppg then when Hodgson was his age. He is a better two way player.

Kassian actually reminds me a lot of Bertuzzi, aboe average skater for a big man, protects the puck well, great passer. Bert who did not have his breakout year until mid to late 20's I think it was 27, but I would have to check, Kassian is curently 22 I think, so yeah, lots of time left.

I haven't seen much of Gaunce this year as he was injured, but there was lots of talk about him actually being on the WJC team if there was NHL, so who knows.

Jensen to me might be the most impressive if you look what he doing on a league that is probably currently the second best in the world, on one of the worst teams in the league.

I think we would all like it to be deeper, and there is a few holes in it, but hardly enough for doom and gloom, when you factor in what we currently have playing for us.

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11-25-2012, 05:12 PM
  #291
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Hey, I'll be the first to admit- I have seen very little of the games of our prospects this season. I have only seen 2 Wolves games and Corrado play a couple of times only. And hey, I actually liked what I saw from Kassian and Schroeder on the Moose, and Corrado looked solid when I watched him as well.

It is a valid point to come at me and say that I haven't watched most of these guys enough this year, because it is true. But let's not get lost in the main point I am trying to make. GENERALLY SPEAKING, (and you could eassssily do a statistical regression on this if you wanted), producing at an extremely high level at the junior and AHL ranks is a necessity to becoming a point-producing player in the NHL. However, it is not sufficient and many of these players' games are not able to translate to the NHL at all. There are exceptions to the rule, as you mentioned in Lucic, Weber, Franzen, etc. But let's not use those as reference points when our ENTIRE prospect base is struggling statistically. To say that watching the scoreboard is useless in assessing how well a player is playing over a large sample size of games is absurd, frankly.
That hit your credibility quite a bit. While I agree that there are a lot of prospects we have that won't pan out, I think that if even two or three out of Kassian/Tanev/Jensen/Corrado/Connauto/Schroeder/Lack/McEneny end up becoming impact players, we won't be in too dire starights.

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11-25-2012, 05:31 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
That hit your credibility quite a bit. While I agree that there are a lot of prospects we have that won't pan out, I think that if even two or three out of Kassian/Tanev/Jensen/Corrado/Connauto/Schroeder/Lack/McEneny end up becoming impact players, we won't be in too dire starights.
Man, I have been a diehard Canucks fan for 20 years. I associated the Moose with the Canucks for 10 years and the Wolves are a relatively new association. I wrote the Wolves in that very paragraph and then the Moose slipped out at the end. I wouldn't imagine you're the most popular guy around if you immediately discredit everyone you know who makes a slip-of-the-tongue/typo .

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11-25-2012, 05:37 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by clay View Post
Man, I have been a diehard Canucks fan for 20 years. I associated the Moose with the Canucks for 10 years and the Wolves are a relatively new association. I edited it as soon as it was posted. I wouldn't imagine you're the most popular guy around if you immediately discredit everyone you know who makes a slip-of-the-tongue/typo .
Fair enough.

Although if you haven't seen that much of them, it must be really hard to judge their potential. Both Schroeder and Kassian have been playing quite well, despite Arniel changing the lines around all the time. Chicago is a low scoring team; just because Kassian put up more points with Buffalo's farm team doesn't mean he's regressed, for example.

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11-25-2012, 06:19 PM
  #294
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Canucks are definitely bottom five, but your post really seemed to be nitpicking to put a damper on spirits. Not counting Jensen's shootout goals and saying Tanev's ceiling is a #5 are the two that stand out. Willie Mitchell is a #2 defenseman and he has no offensive game to speak of. It's not all about offense.

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11-25-2012, 06:25 PM
  #295
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Tanev played shutdown vs top NHL competition at 22 and did well. Quality possession player. He's top 4.

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11-25-2012, 07:19 PM
  #296
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We don't have anyone in the system with the top end talent to take over when the Sedins are gone. In that way our prospect pool is one of the weakest in the league.

That doesn't mean that the prospects we do have aren't going to make an impact in the NHL though. Tanev will be a solid top four, at least one of Jensen/Kassian looks to make the top six, and then there are a few who could also make an impact if they can take a few more steps forward (Schroeder/Corrado).

Can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We don't have a strong pool, but that doesn't mean we don't have anything. We have players who will make an impact, we just don't have the top end talent.

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11-25-2012, 07:55 PM
  #297
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If you are expecting all of them to become top 6/ top 4 NHL players producing at a PPG clip, then yeah, you are going to be disappointed.

If we can get 2-3 guys who play more than 200 NHL games out of our current prospect pool I'll be pretty satisfied, even if they are playing bottom 6 or bottom pairing on D. We still need those roles to be filled from within so we don't have to go out and use assets to acquire them or overpay on the FA market.

I'm optimistic about Kassian, Corrado, Jensen and Tanev, those are the guys I feel will at the very least have a very long cup of coffee at the NHL level and Tanev already is a very solid #5/6 guy and even if he stays that way that's ok (he was a free asset (UFA signing), great value).

Shroeder I'm not as optimistic about anymore, same with Sauve and Rodin. They have a lot of work to do to make it.

2012 Draftees it's too early to make a call on. Gaunce and Mallet I'm hoping at least one of them can become a bottom 6 forward in the worst case scenario.

Lack has been up and down this year, but he has at least had some very solid years in the AHL, has a terrific frame and composure to his game.

Guys like LaBate and McNally are my Ronco™ Rottiserie players: You set them and forget it. Will see what they can provide when they leave college in 3 seasons. Both need to fill out their frames. Jeremy Price is this years Ronco™ player about to be fully cooked, will cut in and see if he's juicy after this year. Last year was Cannata, and he's unfortunately stuck in the ECHL.



Overall, we do not have a good pool, it's shallow and lacking in Blue-chippers and great value picks in the later rounds (aside from Corrado).

Our scouting staff is not good. Bottom 5-10 in the league. They inspire very little confidence.

We have not had many high picks or top 90 picks in the last 3 drafts, but that is not an excuse, the reason why other teams stay competitive for multiple years is because they continually churn out an average of one NHL player per draft and make good picks after the first round. It's like an MLB team that can string together some singles (NHL picks) that lead to runs/wins. If you keep adding NHL players from within, good things happen.

Even if we had top 10 picks, I feel like somehow we'd screw up the pick.

Our WHL scouting is the worst in the league by a country mile.

Our QMJHL scouting is not much better.

We have some serious issues in our scouting department.

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11-25-2012, 08:13 PM
  #298
Wisp
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I think their are some good signs that the scouting staff has improved since Gillis took over.

In most territories, anyways. Still don't trust whoever is responsible for the WHL.

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11-25-2012, 08:31 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
I think their are some good signs that the scouting staff has improved since Gillis took over.

In most territories, anyways. Still don't trust whoever is responsible for the WHL.
WHL isn't even Delorme anymore, but it's still crap.

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11-25-2012, 08:31 PM
  #300
Huntershin Karuk
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That would be Ron Deformed..ah, Delorme.

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