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Marijuana Legalization in CO / WA / OR

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Old
11-21-2012, 07:32 PM
  #326
Johnnywhite
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
As usual there are conflicting studies about the actual medicinal benefits of marijuana. And really, there are some obvious health risks. And it certainly appears that there are some benefits as well.

But I find the "medical benefits" question muddies the essential issue, at least for me.

It's a matter of choosing your poison.

And I want the same right to chose my poison that the users of alcohol have.
Totally, want to discuss it over a decent Scotch or four?

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11-21-2012, 08:18 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Johnnywhite View Post
Totally, want to discuss it over a decent Scotch or four?
^^^

I drink four scotch and I'd have to have my home address pinned to my jacket.

Okay, I already have it pinned to my jacket.

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11-21-2012, 08:25 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
As usual there are conflicting studies about the actual medicinal benefits of marijuana. And really, there are some obvious health risks. And it certainly appears that there are some benefits as well.

But I find the "medical benefits" question muddies the essential issue, at least for me.

It's a matter of choosing your poison.

And I want the same right to chose my poison that the users of alcohol have.
Maybe it's because I don't smoke pot (although I'm not implying that you do, because I have no idea), but the essential issue to me is that the cons of criminalization far outweight the pros. Decriminalize it, create a few problems but solve a whole lot more, and Bob's yer uncle.

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11-21-2012, 09:00 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Maybe it's because I don't smoke pot (although I'm not implying that you do, because I have no idea), but the essential issue to me is that the cons of criminalization far outweight the pros. Decriminalize it, create a few problems but solve a whole lot more, and Bob's yer uncle.
Yes. I make no secret of it now. I smoked it when I was young. Quit smoking it when I raised a family and worked with high risk teens. And then started again a couple of years ago because I quit drinking. I became a musician late in life and restaurant and bar owners will serve you liquor until you can no longer play. I got tired of hangovers. Now I light up a sparky after I play and can relax without the heavy aftereffects.

And yes, I agree completely with what you say.

The only thing I support in terms of regulation is that like, alcohol, it should be off limits to minors. And yeah, I know kids drink underage and I would presume the same would be (is) true with pot.

But as parents, you educate your kids, you keep them as close as you can and you make damned sure you are involved enough in their life to be aware of what they are up to.

Smoking pot is an adult decision in my view. And again, I agree, the social cost of criminalizing pot far outweigh the costs of decriminalizing it.

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11-21-2012, 09:48 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
As usual there are conflicting studies about the actual medicinal benefits of marijuana. And really, there are some obvious health risks. And it certainly appears that there are some benefits as well.

But I find the "medical benefits" question muddies the essential issue, at least for me.

It's a matter of choosing your poison.

And I want the same right to chose my poison that the users of alcohol have.
I wouldn't say it muddies it at all.

People have been using cannabis as natural medicine for literally thousands of years, for a wide variety of ailments. Queen Victoria drank cannabis tea for her menstrual cramps is one common
historical example.

There are loads of documentation on this if you do enough digging... many of it pre-dates this corrupted silly era of prohibition we have been in for the bast 70 years. I believe Lester Grinspoon's "Marijuana Revisited" goes into the history of cannabis as medicine quite a bit.

Think of it like ginger. That stuff has all sorts of medicinal uses as well.

Though, there's nothing wrong with having cannabis as a vice either. As far as vices go, it's a pretty safe bet... no drug is harmless of course but in comparison to alcohol or even caffeine it stands up pretty well.

It's cliched in these discussions but it really is true: cannabis hasn't killed anybody like, ever.

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11-21-2012, 10:31 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
I wouldn't say it muddies it at all.

People have been using cannabis as natural medicine for literally thousands of years, for a wide variety of ailments. Queen Victoria drank cannabis tea for her menstrual cramps is one common
historical example.

There are loads of documentation on this if you do enough digging... many of it pre-dates this corrupted silly era of prohibition we have been in for the bast 70 years. I believe Lester Grinspoon's "Marijuana Revisited" goes into the history of cannabis as medicine quite a bit.

Think of it like ginger. That stuff has all sorts of medicinal uses as well.

Though, there's nothing wrong with having cannabis as a vice either. As far as vices go, it's a pretty safe bet... no drug is harmless of course but in comparison to alcohol or even caffeine it stands up pretty well.

It's cliched in these discussions but it really is true: cannabis hasn't killed anybody like, ever.
I don't necessarily disagree with your take in it's medicinal value, but for me, it is not the core issue in the debate about marijuana.

Freedom of choice is what I believe the issue should be.

Scientists debate the medicinal value, but the freedom issue seems much more clear to me. It would be nice if it had medicinal value...but for me that should not be the deciding factor in the ongoing march towards decriminalizing.

I suspect we are ultimately on the same side, however, and we both simply offer opinion.

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11-22-2012, 11:24 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
I don't necessarily disagree with your take in it's medicinal value, but for me, it is not the core issue in the debate about marijuana.

Freedom of choice is what I believe the issue should be.

Scientists debate the medicinal value, but the freedom issue seems much more clear to me. It would be nice if it had medicinal value...but for me that should not be the deciding factor in the ongoing march towards decriminalizing.

I suspect we are ultimately on the same side, however, and we both simply offer opinion.
For sure, we're on the same side, I do think it's important to get the "debate" on the medicinal values right though. The "debate" on the medicinal value stems from the pro War on Drugs lobby.

The best example of the US government being caught in hypocrisy regarding this was mentioned earlier in the thread I believe... their official stance is that it has zero medicinal value, yet they also own and maintain the federal patent for medical marijuana.

The bottom line is that cannabis is a plant that has absolute, proven, documented medicinal use. Very common medicine too, all the way up until the 1930's.

I get that people are apprehensive of the term "medical marijuana" because of how it's used by many folks, especially in California, as a front to just smoke recreationally. That doesn't mean that it's total ******** though.

It's a completely legitimate medicine that tangibly improves the quality of life for a lot of sick people out there... it's important not to loose sight of this.

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11-22-2012, 11:33 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
For sure, we're on the same side, I do think it's important to get the "debate" on the medicinal values right though. The "debate" on the medicinal value stems from the pro War on Drugs lobby.

The best example of the US government being caught in hypocrisy regarding this was mentioned earlier in the thread I believe... their official stance is that it has zero medicinal value, yet they also own and maintain the federal patent for medical marijuana.

The bottom line is that cannabis is a plant that has absolute, proven, documented medicinal use. Very common medicine too, all the way up until the 1930's.

I get that people are apprehensive of the term "medical marijuana" because of how it's used by many folks, especially in California, as a front to just smoke recreationally. That doesn't mean that it's total ******** though.

It's a completely legitimate medicine that tangibly improves the quality of life for a lot of sick people out there... it's important not to loose sight of this.
No problema.

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12-01-2012, 01:50 AM
  #334
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Hunter would be proud!!!

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12-01-2012, 03:12 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by derriko View Post

What do you guys think about these marijuana legalization initiatives?
I think that the government should grow it (using top scientists to produce the best results), sell it, tax it and legalize it. It should be regulated, sold to those only over 19 (or whatever the legal age is) and adhere to the same regulations as alcohol: meaning you can only smoke it in an establishment (say a marijuana bar or in your own private residence, and not be high in public or while driving a motor vehicle, etc.), it should be taxed and sold by the state or province. The money raised by this would be put right back into the system, specifically healthcare and education.

Why not? It works for Europe.

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12-01-2012, 11:21 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Hunter would be proud!!!
Best first line in a "novel" ever:

Tyler gets me a job as a waiter, after that Tyler's pushing a gun in my mouth and saying, the first step to eternal life is you have to die.

- Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas.

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12-01-2012, 11:30 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
Best first line in a "novel" ever:

Tyler gets me a job as a waiter, after that Tyler's pushing a gun in my mouth and saying, the first step to eternal life is you have to die.

- Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas.
Most poignant...


"So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.” ~ Hunter S Thompson

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06-07-2013, 01:24 PM
  #338
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Vermont has become the latest state to decriminalize (not legalize) small amounts of marijuana for personal use.
Vermont has become the 17th state to get rid of criminal penalties for the possession of small amounts of marijuana.

Gov. Peter Shumlin signed a measure into law Thursday.

The law replaces criminal penalties with civil fines similar to a traffic ticket for possession of up to an ounce of marijuana or five grams of hashish.

The law also treats possession of such amounts of marijuana by people under age 21 the same as underage possession of alcohol, including referral to court diversion for a first offence, potential civil penalties and/or license suspension, and criminal penalties for a third violation.

Previously, possession of up to 2 ounces of marijuana was punishable by a six- to 24-month jail term. Vermont legalized the use of medical marijuana in 2004.
http://www.theprovince.com/health/Ve...#ixzz2VYIjGAqa

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Old
06-08-2013, 03:24 PM
  #339
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A legalization initiative in the Maine House failed the other day by 4 votes. We'll be hearing from them again before too long.

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06-08-2013, 07:15 PM
  #340
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The Federal Government does not have the Right to ban drugs:

For One, read the 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Secondly, read the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

It is the same reason the they had to pass an amendment to ban alcohol.

They would have to do something like this:
Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, production, sale, or transportation of drugs, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for intoxicating or Inebriating, purposes is hereby prohibited.
Section 2. The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

States can ban drugs, depending on what their individual constitutions say. States have more flexibility when it comes to creating laws. The Federal Government does not have the authority to ban or regulate anything that isn't specifically mentioned.

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06-08-2013, 07:28 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Misfit Semin View Post
The Federal Government does not have the Right to ban drugs:

For One, read the 9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Secondly, read the 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

It is the same reason the they had to pass an amendment to ban alcohol.

They would have to do something like this:
Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, production, sale, or transportation of drugs, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for intoxicating or Inebriating, purposes is hereby prohibited.
Section 2. The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

States can ban drugs, depending on what their individual constitutions say. States have more flexibility when it comes to creating laws. The Federal Government does not have the authority to ban or regulate anything that isn't specifically mentioned.
There is no Federal ban on drugs.

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06-08-2013, 07:38 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
There is no Federal ban on drugs.
So how do you explain all of the federal laws against it?

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06-08-2013, 08:05 PM
  #343
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So how do you explain all of the federal laws against it?
As you pionted out it would be unconstitutional. They used the commerce clause I believe to restrict substances of all kinds. You need a license to possess or distribute certain things. So they are not illegal per se. If you possess them without a license you are breaking the law.

It may be semantics, but that is why it's not unconstitutional. IIRC, you can blame Nixon. I've read he did it because so many soldiers were getting addicted to heroine in Vietnam. May or may not be true.

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06-08-2013, 08:56 PM
  #344
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Aren't you guys worried it will lead to a greater influx of criminals looking to set up shop with less hassle and export it elsewhere. I believe that's the issue Holland is having

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06-09-2013, 01:13 PM
  #345
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Aren't you guys worried it will lead to a greater influx of criminals looking to set up shop with less hassle and export it elsewhere. I believe that's the issue Holland is having
Is it much different than those who already do it?

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06-09-2013, 01:34 PM
  #346
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Aren't you guys worried it will lead to a greater influx of criminals looking to set up shop with less hassle and export it elsewhere. I believe that's the issue Holland is having
The issue the Netherlands are having is that their drugs laws are messed up. They've regulated the sale of Cannabis, but cultivation remains illegal. Greenhouses are owned by criminal organizations who have set up shop in the Netherlands and neighbouring Belgium and enjoy massive profit margins. One Dutch city will start with a new program and is about to grow its own cannabis.

Dutch provinces bordering Belgium and Germany have banned the sale of cannabis to foreigners to reduce the problem of 'drug tourism'. This has led to a massive increase in street dealers, because the tourists keep on coming. Funny though, because most of the weed that's being sold in southern Dutch coffeeshops is being grown in Belgium.

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06-09-2013, 02:45 PM
  #347
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Is it much different than those who already do it?
Yes. Here in Canada, a dealer runs the same risk whether they're in Vancouver or Toronto, so the blackmarket is geographically spread out. Whereas in the States, the growth and export will be almost exclusively focused in the 3 "legal" states, thereby unfairly burdening the criminal system of these states.

Sure mass production is illegal in Colorado, but 7 plants are legal. But where do cops start when every residence in the state is suspect of growth? Hence the risk is lower for criminals to set up shop.

It seems to me like a scary invitation to drug dealers.

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06-09-2013, 02:46 PM
  #348
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Aren't you guys worried it will lead to a greater influx of criminals looking to set up shop with less hassle and export it elsewhere. I believe that's the issue Holland is having
Yes those viscous Marijuana cartels.

We could also take the revenue from people coming from out of state to buy a product not available in theirs.

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06-09-2013, 02:49 PM
  #349
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The issue the Netherlands are having is that their drugs laws are messed up. They've regulated the sale of Cannabis, but cultivation remains illegal. Greenhouses are owned by criminal organizations who have set up shop in the Netherlands and neighbouring Belgium and enjoy massive profit margins. One Dutch city will start with a new program and is about to grow its own cannabis.

Dutch provinces bordering Belgium and Germany have banned the sale of cannabis to foreigners to reduce the problem of 'drug tourism'. This has led to a massive increase in street dealers, because the tourists keep on coming. Funny though, because most of the weed that's being sold in southern Dutch coffeeshops is being grown in Belgium.
Even if cultivation was legal, criminals having issues cultivating elsewhere will simply go to the Netherlands. Corporations do the same thing. Even if their market is European, but there is less labour hassle Asian markets, they'll divide their operations or farm out the labour. For criminals, its good risk management to have certain operations take place where there is relaxed laws.

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06-09-2013, 02:55 PM
  #350
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Yes those viscous Marijuana cartels.

We could also take the revenue from people coming from out of state to buy a product not available in theirs.
They're as viscous as the laws are. A dealer looking at 10 years prison will not go lightly. Moreover, dealers often face death from their employer as discipline for failing to meet deadlines or for lost product, so their reaction to issues (eg, getting pulled over) are often violent.

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