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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
11-27-2012, 09:42 AM
  #501
Therick67
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Well a couple points then:

1 I don't think there's any way Jon Lester is worth more than Myers from a value standpoint. He is unanimously regarded as a top 3 prospect, and such players get moved for current stars. Think of who the Red Sox would have to get to deal Barnes or Bogarts, and add a little since Myers is more highly regarded than both of those Sox prospects.

2. The Sox aren't "desperate" to move Lester. They'd just be doing so in this deal to improve the team for 2014 and beyond. Since Lester is only signed though 2014 and recent data suggests he's getting worse, not better, you'd be picking up a cost-controlled young player and sacrificing a bit of the present. Since I personally think the "present" is a lost cause for this team, I love that opportunity. If you think this team has a chance at something, you probably don't. I'd push you to explain how a team without an ace, challenged at the back-end of the rotation and the bullpen, missing a MLB quality 1b, SS and two corner outfielders has a chance at anything at all, but you're entitled to your opinion.

3. You sign Ortiz because it's a business. You have to compete (or appear as though you're trying to), and you have to fill the seats. No big-market team ever blatantly sacrifices multiple seasons to rebuild. They do it gradually and not blatantly, and I think that's what's happening here. The Sox will try to remain "competitive" (although that failed last season) while actually loading up for the future.
I guess the problem I'm having is this team doesn't appear to have a plan or clear direction. If they think re-signing Ortiz and having that phony press conference will sell tickets, then they don't get it.

If it's a business, how does moving lester improve that lousy rotation?
Maybe Meyers will be the second coming, I don't know. but I'd rather see them bottom out fast, get the draft picks and rebuild.

I guess the Sox are trying to be bad, but not that bad? I rather have had Papi walk and deal Lester. Lets get it over with.

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11-27-2012, 09:59 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
I guess the problem I'm having is this team doesn't appear to have a plan or clear direction. If they think re-signing Ortiz and having that phony press conference will sell tickets, then they don't get it.

If it's a business, how does moving lester improve that lousy rotation?
Maybe Meyers will be the second coming, I don't know. but I'd rather see them bottom out fast, get the draft picks and rebuild.

I guess the Sox are trying to be bad, but not that bad? I rather have had Papi walk and deal Lester. Lets get it over with.
Well they're not going to let Papi walk...I mean do you really think the Red Sox would revert to some $60 million payroll team in the name of rebuilding for 2-3 years down the road? Have they ever done that? Have the Yankees ever done that? The Dodgers? Any big market team? It's unrealistic, and it's not going to happen. They are always going to aim for an entertaining and professional product, like it or not.

As for "tanking for picks", well dealing a #2/3 starter for a top 3 prospect is effectively doing that. No pick they're going to get is going to be any better/closer to impact than Myers. Now while I'd argue losing Lester isn't exactly "tanking" since he was horrible last season, it obviously weakens an already mediocre rotation.

If you acquire Myers you open up even more budget. In 2014 you have a lineup featuring Pedroia, WMB, Myers, Bogarts and maybe JBJ. You have a ton of cash to spend (especially if Ellsbury is also gone)and the ability to trade one of those guys or other prospects (like Barnes for example) to fill in the holes. Personally I far prefer that route to pretending like a rotation led by Jon Lester has a chance at anything this season.

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11-27-2012, 10:14 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
Well they're not going to let Papi walk...I mean do you really think the Red Sox would revert to some $60 million payroll team in the name of rebuilding for 2-3 years down the road? Have they ever done that? Have the Yankees ever done that? The Dodgers? Any big market team? It's unrealistic, and it's not going to happen. They are always going to aim for an entertaining and professional product, like it or not.

As for "tanking for picks", well dealing a #2/3 starter for a top 3 prospect is effectively doing that. No pick they're going to get is going to be any better/closer to impact than Myers. Now while I'd argue losing Lester isn't exactly "tanking" since he was horrible last season, it obviously weakens an already mediocre rotation.

If you acquire Myers you open up even more budget. In 2014 you have a lineup featuring Pedroia, WMB, Myers, Bogarts and maybe JBJ. You have a ton of cash to spend (especially if Ellsbury is also gone)and the ability to trade one of those guys or other prospects (like Barnes for example) to fill in the holes. Personally I far prefer that route to pretending like a rotation led by Jon Lester has a chance at anything this season.
How professional was that product last year This team isn't going to be very good this year, they aren't fooling anyone.

I'm not against rebuilding. Go ahead and trade lester for Meyers, but why resign a DH who's atleast 37 who just had his first major injury? If keeping lester is pretending, isn't resigning Ortiz the same thing?

You also don't see big market teams unload 3 guys like they did last year, but they did. This organization made this mess, clean house.

They finished in last place last season, and will probably be in the same exact spot again this season.

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11-27-2012, 10:34 AM
  #504
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I would like Myers for Lester from a Red Sox point of view. I would LOVE it if they took Myers and spun him to Seattle with Ellsbury for a potential Felix Hernandez deal.

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11-27-2012, 10:39 AM
  #505
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I think we need to get over our obsession with Felix Hernandez. That isn't happening at this point. We had our chance and balked at the price.

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11-27-2012, 11:25 AM
  #506
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I think we need to get over our obsession with Felix Hernandez. That isn't happening at this point. We had our chance and balked at the price.
When did the Sox balk at the price?

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11-27-2012, 12:07 PM
  #507
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I don't remember that either I remember them telling the Mariners they could pick any 5 players off a list and the Mariners said no.

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11-27-2012, 12:38 PM
  #508
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I don't remember that either I remember them telling the Mariners they could pick any 5 players off a list and the Mariners said no.
This. Mariners said no because for all intents and purposes the list was somewhat limited. Not to mention there's no reason for Seattle to trade him still, especially then though.

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11-27-2012, 02:13 PM
  #509
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I can't remember the entire list, but if I recall the list included guys like Buchholz, Bowden, Doubront, Kalish, Reddick, Masterson, and Bard

If the Mariners had selected correctly then, they could have come away with a haul.

Oh well, he isn't going to be traded. The M's have made that abundantly clear.

I got an autographed ball of his. That stock is going up by the year. Bought it for $60. The value is up into the $200's currently just by looking on ebay. He is really special. Don't take watching him pitch for granted.

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11-27-2012, 02:17 PM
  #510
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Mike Pelfrey is getting non-tendered. He has been inconsistent his entire career and is coming off of an injury, but I wouldn't mind throwing him a one year, incentive laden deal to see if he can stick in the back of the rotation.

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11-27-2012, 02:42 PM
  #511
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Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Friends of Cody Ross believe BOS is in the lead in his neg. on 3-year deal. But sources say there haven't been new talks in last few days.

If they are going to sign Ross why did they sign Gomes?

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11-27-2012, 02:52 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Friends of Cody Ross believe BOS is in the lead in his neg. on 3-year deal. But sources say there haven't been new talks in last few days.

If they are going to sign Ross why did they sign Gomes?
I'm not really sure what the plan is at this point. They are reported to be invloved in everything, yet haven't done much.

I know they have been busy with e-mails, since I'm getting several daily trying to sell me stuff.

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11-27-2012, 02:57 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Friends of Cody Ross believe BOS is in the lead in his neg. on 3-year deal. But sources say there haven't been new talks in last few days.

If they are going to sign Ross why did they sign Gomes?
Not sure why one should preclude the other. They have a ton of money, and Gomes is definitely someone you could platoon with a lefty like Kalish (in the event Kalish proves he's even close to his hype). Ross is tailor-made for Fenway and it'd be tough to lose him.

And besides, do we have any major-league ready corner outfield options?

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11-27-2012, 03:17 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN
Friends of Cody Ross believe BOS is in the lead in his neg. on 3-year deal. But sources say there haven't been new talks in last few days.

If they are going to sign Ross why did they sign Gomes?
Resigning Ross to a 3 year deal is ridiculous. He's a good guy, and he put up some decent numbers, but he's infinitely replaceable and there are far cheaper alternatives with roughly the same production available out there.

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11-27-2012, 03:38 PM
  #515
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Resigning Ross to a 3 year deal is ridiculous. He's a good guy, and he put up some decent numbers, but he's infinitely replaceable and there are far cheaper alternatives with roughly the same production available out there.
But will they be as cheerful?

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11-27-2012, 05:15 PM
  #516
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I wouldn't mind if the Sox give Ross a 3 year deal between 10-20 million. I'm not a big fan of Swisher (lose a draft pick), but I think the Sox should look at Victorino. If none of these play out then we could just let The Sandman (Jerry Sands) play in the OF or trade to get one. Unless we trade Ellsbury...

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11-27-2012, 05:39 PM
  #517
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Do people forget they have 2 OF spots to fill? Signing Gomes does not rule out signing Ross at all. Ross can play everyday, whereas Gomes is a platoon with someone to hits RHP well.

Still 3 years is probably too much for Ross.

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11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
  #518
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Do people forget they have 2 OF spots to fill?
No, but people might argue you could fill them with more quality. Ross ain't horrible, far from it, but he's not my "A" option anymore, not after we signed Gomes.

I am gonna throw up soon, I have simply NO IDEA what the plan is. But it's early, the winter meetings should bring more clarity.

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11-27-2012, 06:24 PM
  #519
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No, but people might argue you could fill them with more quality. Ross ain't horrible, far from it, but he's not my "A" option anymore, not after we signed Gomes.

I am gonna throw up soon, I have simply NO IDEA what the plan is. But it's early, the winter meetings should bring more clarity.
Then who would you sign instead? There's a whole lot of nothing besides Swisher and Ross left. I like both, but Swisher costs you a draft pick, which he isn't worth.

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11-27-2012, 06:25 PM
  #520
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Again, if you trade Lester for Myers, it allows you to move Ellsbury for a pitching prospect. That pitching prospect plus Barnes, Webster, Doubront, De La Rosa, Ranaudo, Owens, Brian Johnson and Workman, you have a pretty solid rotation of the future. Myers, Bogaerts, Bradley Jr, Brentz, Middlebrooks, Iglesias, Marrero, Lavarnway, Swihart, Coyle, and Cecchini make up a pretty solid roster, and that doesn't include Pedroia, Kalish, or Saltalamacchia or prospects that are still far off. Then on top of that, you have the 7th pick and a high 2nd round pick. That team looks pretty loaded. That assumes that you move Buchholz at some point, which could bring quiet a haul as well. Or you keep Buchholz, and you buy some prospects more time in the minors (or cause them to transition to a bullpen role, which strengthens your bullpen). Then on top of that, the team without Ellsbury and Lester, finishes near the bottom this season, and you get another top pick, before you start your run in the 2014-2015 range.

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11-27-2012, 06:37 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by CDJ View Post
I can't remember the entire list, but if I recall the list included guys like Buchholz, Bowden, Doubront, Kalish, Reddick, Masterson, and Bard

If the Mariners had selected correctly then, they could have come away with a haul.

Oh well, he isn't going to be traded. The M's have made that abundantly clear.

I got an autographed ball of his. That stock is going up by the year. Bought it for $60. The value is up into the $200's currently just by looking on ebay. He is really special. Don't take watching him pitch for granted.
Hagadone and Yamaico Navarro were the other two if I'm not mistaken. If they had taken Buchholz, Masterson, Doubront, Bard and Hagadone, you have 3/5 of a solid rotation and 2 key set-up guys. From one trade. Plus, all of those pitchers become better going from Fenway to Safeco.

I made this argument last winter, and people said 3 good starters aren't worth an ace. Even if they had left out one of the bullpen guys and picked Reddick, his HR totals looked like a win. Whether or not he can sustain that is anyone's guess, but that's quite a list of prospects, especially given their status a few years ago.

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11-27-2012, 06:53 PM
  #522
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Hagadone and Yamaico Navarro were the other two if I'm not mistaken. If they had taken Buchholz, Masterson, Doubront, Bard and Hagadone, you have 3/5 of a solid rotation and 2 key set-up guys. From one trade. Plus, all of those pitchers become better going from Fenway to Safeco.

I made this argument last winter, and people said 3 good starters aren't worth an ace. Even if they had left out one of the bullpen guys and picked Reddick, his HR totals looked like a win. Whether or not he can sustain that is anyone's guess, but that's quite a list of prospects, especially given their status a few years ago.
You are absolutely correct. They were the other two. Completely forgot about Navarro. He really fizzled.

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11-27-2012, 07:26 PM
  #523
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Future of Hamilton/JBJ/Myers

sign me up

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11-27-2012, 07:27 PM
  #524
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Jason Kipnis, Choo, and Masterson for Pedroia....dont do it Ben

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11-27-2012, 07:37 PM
  #525
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Jason Kipnis, Choo, and Masterson for Pedroia....dont do it Ben
Where did that come from?

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