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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
11-27-2012, 08:37 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
Jason Kipnis, Choo, and Masterson for Pedroia....dont do it Ben
Where did that come from?

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11-27-2012, 08:41 PM
  #527
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Where did that come from?
Hopefully nowhere. That's an awful trade for the Sox, and I like Masterson and Choo.

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11-27-2012, 08:48 PM
  #528
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Masterson is beyond overrated. Guy is a hack.

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11-27-2012, 09:26 PM
  #529
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@pgammo: Red Sox inquired on Mauer in Sept., Oct., Nov..."not being traded" response. Period
There's always December......

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11-28-2012, 02:18 AM
  #530
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Red Sox are targeting a trio: Napoli, Swisher and Cody Ross

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The Red Sox's positional plan is starting to emerge, and it includes the trio of catcher/first baseman Mike Napoli and outfielders Nick Swisher and Cody Ross.

The Red Sox are in contact with all three players, and all are considered in play. The Red Sox seek a first baseman and two outfielders, and it appears this is their top triumvirate.

Napoli is also talking to the Mariners and Rangers, but one rival exec said he sees the Red Sox as the favorite. Napoli has been a natural from the start, with his 1.107 career OPS at Fenway Park.

Adam LaRoche is a logical second option for first base should Napoli go to the Mariners or stay with the Rangers. The higher-priced Josh Hamilton appears to be more of a fallback/long shot option at this point.

Swisher is thought to be drawing interest from the Giants, Braves, Mariners, Orioles, Phillies and others. Ross would be of interest to the very same teams as Swisher.

Boston likes the versatility that Napoli brings, and the same is true of Swisher, who could play first base on the occasions when Napoli catches. The Red Sox have been trying to re-sign Ross since the end of the season.

Napoli is likely to command a three- or four-year deal, Ross a two- or three-year deal and Swisher a four-year deal.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jo...-and-cody-ross

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11-28-2012, 07:45 AM
  #531
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Brian Wilson might be an option according to Olney. Think of all the beach boys songs they could play at fenway. He was also an excellent closer. Maybe he can get back to that.

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11-28-2012, 08:42 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Red Sox are targeting a trio: Napoli, Swisher and Cody Ross



http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jo...-and-cody-ross
As a Sox fan, if that trio doesn't make you want to buy a brick and then smash yourself in the face repeatedly with it, then you need to seriously start rooting for another team. That is just terrible.

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Old
11-28-2012, 08:46 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
As a Sox fan, if that trio doesn't make you want to buy a brick and then smash yourself in the face repeatedly with it, then you need to seriously start rooting for another team. That is just terrible.
I heard on the radio Swisher wants 100 million, did I hear that right?

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11-28-2012, 08:49 AM
  #534
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Any news regarding the Sox going after Hamilton?

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11-28-2012, 08:55 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
I heard on the radio Swisher wants 100 million, did I hear that right?
I heard Napoli wants 5 years, and Swisher and Ross want 4. So the answer to the last few years of overspending poorly on big name players is to overspend poorly on second tier guys instead? WTF is wrong with this management team? Go young. Let the youth develop.

The team sucked last year with Ross, so why is bringing him back for a longer term, at a higher dollar value a good idea? Factor in that NY can't wait to get rid of Swisher, and Napoli only hits decently in Fenway. I mean, who knows whether or not he can do that consistently if he comes here? If it's going to be a bridge year, the answer isn't to bring in cast offs and rehashes. Go young and let the guys you already have in your system get big league experience.

This is just another example of them not wanting to go all in on rebuilding, and delaying the process. If they want to try and stay competitive, then go out and buy every good free agent and go that route (even though it won't likely work). If you want to rebuild, really rebuild and stop wasting your time on retreads like Swisher, Ross, and Napoli.

TL;DR: The management is the problem here. You can't go halfway in either way. Just make a decision and commit to it fully.

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11-28-2012, 08:56 AM
  #536
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I don't like Nick Swisher.

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11-28-2012, 08:59 AM
  #537
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Any news regarding the Sox going after Hamilton?
God I hope not.

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11-28-2012, 09:12 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
I heard Napoli wants 5 years, and Swisher and Ross want 4. So the answer to the last few years of overspending poorly on big name players is to overspend poorly on second tier guys instead? WTF is wrong with this management team? Go young. Let the youth develop.

The team sucked last year with Ross, so why is bringing him back for a longer term, at a higher dollar value a good idea? Factor in that NY can't wait to get rid of Swisher, and Napoli only hits decently in Fenway. I mean, who knows whether or not he can do that consistently if he comes here? If it's going to be a bridge year, the answer isn't to bring in cast offs and rehashes. Go young and let the guys you already have in your system get big league experience.

This is just another example of them not wanting to go all in on rebuilding, and delaying the process. If they want to try and stay competitive, then go out and buy every good free agent and go that route (even though it won't likely work). If you want to rebuild, really rebuild and stop wasting your time on retreads like Swisher, Ross, and Napoli.

TL;DR: The management is the problem here. You can't go halfway in either way. Just make a decision and commit to it fully.
LSCII you are dramatically overreacting.

When's the last time a player got "what he wanted", let alone all three players we are talking about here? The GM who cleaned out all of our big contracts is not going to go out and throw long-term deals at lesser players just a few months later. You know it's not going to happen, so relax. I have no doubt that this report (by Jon Heyman, a Yankee water-carrier by the way) is simply wrong, or incomplete. They might be interested in all three, but they'd likely stop at 2, maybe even 1. These players might all want 3+ year deals, but they're not likely to get them. So, let's not overreact.

I'll go ahead and predict that if, IF, the Sox end up signing one or two guys that fans of the rebuild don't advocate (Swisher, Hamilton, Greinke, etc.), it'll be for big money and short years. Talent to bridge the gap until the kids are ready. And frankly I got no problem with that and nor should any of us. They can spend all the money they want as long as the contracts don't last forever.

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11-28-2012, 09:27 AM
  #539
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LSCII you are dramatically overreacting.

When's the last time a player got "what he wanted", let alone all three players we are talking about here? The GM who cleaned out all of our big contracts is not going to go out and throw long-term deals at lesser players just a few months later. You know it's not going to happen, so relax. I have no doubt that this report (by Jon Heyman, a Yankee water-carrier by the way) is simply wrong, or incomplete. They might be interested in all three, but they'd likely stop at 2, maybe even 1. These players might all want 3+ year deals, but they're not likely to get them. So, let's not overreact.

I'll go ahead and predict that if, IF, the Sox end up signing one or two guys that fans of the rebuild don't advocate (Swisher, Hamilton, Greinke, etc.), it'll be for big money and short years. Talent to bridge the gap until the kids are ready. And frankly I got no problem with that and nor should any of us. They can spend all the money they want as long as the contracts don't last forever.
I don't think it's an overreaction to say I disagree with their fundamental philosophy about building a team. I think the FO is trying too hard to straddle the fence and play both sides. I'd prefer they decide to rebuild and go with homegrown talent over mid tier FA's. By throwing money at marginal FA players, all it does is delay the rebuilding. Simple as that.

As far as what players want and what they get, we'll see. Napoli is playing the game well right now. Blew into Boston, then turned around and floated stories about meeting with Texas. Even if he wants to come to Boston, he's got all the leverage. So while he may not get 5 years, even getting the dude for 4 years would be an egregious error, IMO.

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Old
11-28-2012, 09:55 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
Jason Kipnis, Choo, and Masterson for Pedroia....dont do it Ben
I don't think that's bad for one guy. Masterson could be a solid 3/4 starter for us; and is still young. Choo is a good right fielder, and would mean they don't sign Swisher and cost any draft picks. Kipnis had a pretty good 'rookie' campaign last year and is a few years younger than Pedroia.
I love Dustin, but I think we're living the past with him. He has been a very good player and is a dirt dog; but not the superstar we thought he was after his '08 season.

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11-28-2012, 09:59 AM
  #541
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Swisher is fine, and he has a valauble versatility at positions we need -- both OF corners and 1B. I'd be happy to bring him in. It's not like we're all that much hitting away from contending.

That and another smart move with the pitching, rather than just bindly signing the latest big name (possibly a signing of John Lannan? He can chew through innings at an average level and that's our principle need right now) and we might be closer to contention than we think after a year in which so many of our key players got hurt or underperformed their talent.

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11-28-2012, 10:05 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
I don't think it's an overreaction to say I disagree with their fundamental philosophy about building a team. I think the FO is trying too hard to straddle the fence and play both sides. I'd prefer they decide to rebuild and go with homegrown talent over mid tier FA's. By throwing money at marginal FA players, all it does is delay the rebuilding. Simple as that.

As far as what players want and what they get, we'll see. Napoli is playing the game well right now. Blew into Boston, then turned around and floated stories about meeting with Texas. Even if he wants to come to Boston, he's got all the leverage. So while he may not get 5 years, even getting the dude for 4 years would be an egregious error, IMO.
Okay but you're basing this disagreement on REPORTS, not actual transactions. You are getting all worked up about a possible strategy, despite the fact it could be complete BS.

We both agree they need to field a MLB team right? So it's not like signing Johnny Gomes for 2 years and short money somehow violates your tenet right? They have to have capable ballplayers if they want to charge top ticket money...can we agree on that obvious reality? So, you're prematurely knocking them for tying themselves into contracts that will prevent them from growing their youngsters and having financial flexibility for the right time, despite the fact they haven't done that yet.

Reports that they're in on guys like Swisher, Napoli and Ross are inevitable. Of course they are. If you were them and you intended to rebuild for a 2015-2016 run, but knew your season ticket base was nervous, your last two seasons were abortions, and you had more money than any other team in the league to spend, wouldn't you make sure fans THOUGHT you were in on every big name yet somehow manage not to sign any that would cripple you long-term?

You need to wait this out. People are panicking for no reason. If they end up giving Swisher 5 years plus, Napoli 4 years plus, and Ross 3 years plus, or even two of those, I'll come on here and you can say "I told you so". Until then it's just premature panicking.

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Old
11-28-2012, 10:32 AM
  #543
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At some point this team needs to stop thinking the fans are stupid, thats more insulting to me than putting a bad team on the field.
I dont undertsnad why they cant admit what we all see and do whats best to build a team, and if that means another last place finish, so be it.
We've seen the foolish contracts they've handed out the last 3 or 4 years. It wouldn't be going out on a limb to think they couldn't do it again.

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11-28-2012, 10:48 AM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
At some point this team needs to stop thinking the fans are stupid, thats more insulting to me than putting a bad team on the field.
I dont undertsnad why they cant admit what we all see and do whats best to build a team, and if that means another last place finish, so be it.
We've seen the foolish contracts they've handed out the last 3 or 4 years. It wouldn't be going out on a limb to think they couldn't do it again.
You're failing to appreciate that the vast majority of their revenue comes from season ticket holders and corporations. Corporations need the team to be competitive to justify large sums of investment for tickets and boxes. If the Sox lose that money they're in trouble.

The average Joe Sox fan is smart enough to want a few years of rebuild. We all know that, and the Sox know that. But their job is to make money, and they need to balance the demands of Joe Sox Fan with the corporations and aging season ticket holders who make them most of their money.

And Joe Sox fan needs to see that reality and stop complaining about it.

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11-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #545
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Originally Posted by bp13 View Post
You're failing to appreciate that the vast majority of their revenue comes from season ticket holders and corporations. Corporations need the team to be competitive to justify large sums of investment for tickets and boxes. If the Sox lose that money they're in trouble.

The average Joe Sox fan is smart enough to want a few years of rebuild. We all know that, and the Sox know that. But their job is to make money, and they need to balance the demands of Joe Sox Fan with the corporations and aging season ticket holders who make them most of their money.

And Joe Sox fan needs to see that reality and stop complaining about it.
I uderstand that part of it, but these corporations aren't stupid either. I know of two companies who have a box and we're having trouble giving away the free seats with free food and booze last year. I'm guessing things wont change much this season.

If we can't complain about sports teams, whats left?
I'm willing to give credit when its due, but this organization created this mess.

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11-28-2012, 11:07 AM
  #546
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They need to move to max contracts of 4 years and a club option for a 5th. Overpay if need be, so they'll be the winning bidder for the players they want, but don't go past 4 years. It's not the money per year that hurts, it's paying players to play for other teams, and aging players that are not playing well, and hard to move blocking your youth movement, and trades.

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11-28-2012, 11:15 AM
  #547
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They need to move to max contracts of 4 years and a club option for a 5th. Overpay if need be, so they'll be the winning bidder for the players they want, but don't go past 4 years. It's not the money per year that hurts, it's paying players to play for other teams, and aging players that are not playing well, and hard to move blocking your youth movement, and trades.
Precisely.

Go ahead and offer a huge annual amount but keep the years low. They can take that strategy for 2-3 years until the kids are ready. Along with that, make that Lester deal as fast as you can book his plane ticket.

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11-28-2012, 11:53 AM
  #548
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Precisely.

Go ahead and offer a huge annual amount but keep the years low. They can take that strategy for 2-3 years until the kids are ready. Along with that, make that Lester deal as fast as you can book his plane ticket.
Yes, the more I think about that trade; the more I think I'd make it.

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11-28-2012, 12:18 PM
  #549
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Okay but you're basing this disagreement on REPORTS, not actual transactions. You are getting all worked up about a possible strategy, despite the fact it could be complete BS.

We both agree they need to field a MLB team right? So it's not like signing Johnny Gomes for 2 years and short money somehow violates your tenet right? They have to have capable ballplayers if they want to charge top ticket money...can we agree on that obvious reality? So, you're prematurely knocking them for tying themselves into contracts that will prevent them from growing their youngsters and having financial flexibility for the right time, despite the fact they haven't done that yet.

Reports that they're in on guys like Swisher, Napoli and Ross are inevitable. Of course they are. If you were them and you intended to rebuild for a 2015-2016 run, but knew your season ticket base was nervous, your last two seasons were abortions, and you had more money than any other team in the league to spend, wouldn't you make sure fans THOUGHT you were in on every big name yet somehow manage not to sign any that would cripple you long-term?

You need to wait this out. People are panicking for no reason. If they end up giving Swisher 5 years plus, Napoli 4 years plus, and Ross 3 years plus, or even two of those, I'll come on here and you can say "I told you so". Until then it's just premature panicking.
I'm not getting worked up in the least. I just see the FO doing the same things they've done to get into this mess, but on a smaller scale. The guys they're talking about now are really all a dime a dozen. You don't go out of your way to resign a player like Ross, especially to a multi-year deal. By the very definition of his body of work, he's replaceable. Same thing with Napoli. You don't go out and overpay those guys just because it's a shorter term than a guy like Hamilton is asking for. To me, overpaying for 3 dimes is akin to overpaying for a quarter, just to a lesser extent. Both are the wrong way to go, IMO. I'd personally rather they just go all in on a rebuild, sign some lesser guys to a one year or 2 year deal (max), and roll with their youth. Can't be much worse than what happened this year (whether you finish in last place with rookies or with mid tier vets, the results are the same, no?), and at least the young players would gain valuable experience.

To cut to the chase for you, cobbling together a squad of JAGs and sprinkling in some young guys is only doing it halfassed, IMO.

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11-28-2012, 12:25 PM
  #550
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The only benefit to signing Swisher would be a potential fight between him and varitek after Swisher asks vartiek how his **** tastes since he has Swisher's sloppy seconds.

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