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Red Sox/MLB 2012 Thread Part XX-Time for Rebuilding

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Old
11-29-2012, 07:24 AM
  #601
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Not really understanding the love as well as the expectations people have for Ellsbury cashing in. He may want and ask for 5 years at $20 Mill per, but the fact that the guy can't stay healthy will knock that number down substantially. The truth is that he's missed the majority of playing time 2 out of his last 3 seasons. Sure he played at a high level the one year he was healthy, but that season is the anomaly in his career, not the standard. In no way, shape, or form should any MLB executive give him a long term, overpriced dollar value type of deal. The dude is made out of glass.

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11-29-2012, 07:26 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Kelly23 View Post
Right now Ellsbury should be the guy everybody is trying to trade for he should be on the Market, with the weak Fa class teams might be more willing.

The only way we should hold on to him until the trade deadline is if we believe he will have a monster first half and get more value if a team is close to our demands but wont go there yet.
Why would teams want to trade for him when he's proven he can't stay on the field? That drives his trade value way down, and makes trading him right now pointless for the Sox. Like you say, the best case scenario is that he stays healthy next year and they flip him at the deadline when his value could be higher. Right now is not the time, IMO.

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11-29-2012, 07:55 AM
  #603
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Why would teams want to trade for him when he's proven he can't stay on the field? That drives his trade value way down, and makes trading him right now pointless for the Sox. Like you say, the best case scenario is that he stays healthy next year and they flip him at the deadline when his value could be higher. Right now is not the time, IMO.
In fairness "can't stay on the field" is generally applied to players with nagging injuries likely to recur, not guys who break bones in the process of making plays. I think baseball folks can see the obvious difference between a guy like say JD Drew who "couldn't stay on the field" and a guy like Ellsbury who missed significant time with real injuries.

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11-29-2012, 08:08 AM
  #604
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In fairness "can't stay on the field" is generally applied to players with nagging injuries likely to recur, not guys who break bones in the process of making plays. I think baseball folks can see the obvious difference between a guy like say JD Drew who "couldn't stay on the field" and a guy like Ellsbury who missed significant time with real injuries.
While the recent injuries may be different in nature than Drew's, the way they both seemingly are only willing to play when they are physically 100% healthy is the same. I like Ellsbury a lot, I really do and I think he's a tremendous player, but you have to be honest about this. In the last 3 years, he's missed nearly as many as he's played (236 games missed and 250 played out of 486 possible). You can also say his injuries have been different, but Francona was all over him during his second year for not being willing to go when he was slightly banged up, if you recall.

Again, he's a talented player, but his track record right now doesn't help his value in trade.

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11-29-2012, 09:55 AM
  #605
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While the recent injuries may be different in nature than Drew's, the way they both seemingly are only willing to play when they are physically 100% healthy is the same. I like Ellsbury a lot, I really do and I think he's a tremendous player, but you have to be honest about this. In the last 3 years, he's missed nearly as many as he's played (236 games missed and 250 played out of 486 possible). You can also say his injuries have been different, but Francona was all over him during his second year for not being willing to go when he was slightly banged up, if you recall.

Again, he's a talented player, but his track record right now doesn't help his value in trade.
Sure, he's been a bit of a puss. I won't argue there. But in my experience that's not all that uncommon, especially in baseball. These guys aren't athletes after all, they're baseball players. So if I'm an acquiring GM it's less than ideal and hurts his value a touch, but it's just another ancillary consideration, not a huge deal. Some guys drink too much, some guys are bad clubhouse guys, some guys aren't coachable, some guys beg for playing time, some guys hit on other wives, etc. Ellsbury's knock is he tends to take an extra day or two here or there when he's sore. Oh well.

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11-29-2012, 10:17 AM
  #606
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When it's that much time in any given season, that's more than an "oh well."

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11-29-2012, 01:53 PM
  #607
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Rob Bradford ‏@bradfo
Lucchino on @WEEI: 'Not going to deal with rumor or speculation' when asked about Lester report



Flip Lester and Jake the Snake for Prospects
Acquire Stanton
Profit

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11-29-2012, 02:43 PM
  #608
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especially when the same thing happening to jd drew was "****ing *****!"

some players are like that, they prefer to play when they're 100% healthy because they don't feel comfortable mechanically or mentally playing less than that.

the red sox have to decide whether or not ellsbury is worth what he's going to ask for. if he's not, they have to decide whether or not they want to try to trade him for less than he's probably worth or offer him the 1/12 contract that he'll decline and take the draft pick.

i think people are in love with good ellsbury. i like him a lot and want him to stay. but if he's going to be wanting in the neighborhood of 6/120+? no thanks. good ellsbury is all well and fine but we've gotten a lot more of injured and kind of ****** ellsbury even now as he's in his prime.

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11-29-2012, 03:01 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
especially when the same thing happening to jd drew was "****ing *****!"

some players are like that, they prefer to play when they're 100% healthy because they don't feel comfortable mechanically or mentally playing less than that.

the red sox have to decide whether or not ellsbury is worth what he's going to ask for. if he's not, they have to decide whether or not they want to try to trade him for less than he's probably worth or offer him the 1/12 contract that he'll decline and take the draft pick.

i think people are in love with good ellsbury. i like him a lot and want him to stay. but if he's going to be wanting in the neighborhood of 6/120+? no thanks. good ellsbury is all well and fine but we've gotten a lot more of injured and kind of ****** ellsbury even now as he's in his prime.
Couldn't agree more.

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11-29-2012, 03:08 PM
  #610
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i think what i'm really saying is that i miss jd drew

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11-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #611
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i think what i'm really saying is that i miss jd drew
The most underrated Red Sox player of the last 20 years?

Or just the most mis-rated?

Also, the most mis-rated player of all time is Derek Jeter.

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11-29-2012, 03:19 PM
  #612
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people hated him because it looked like he wasn't trying.

in reality he was just really good at what he did: get on base, play outstanding defense.

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11-29-2012, 03:20 PM
  #613
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I'd rather be signing a bunch of marginal starting pitchers with upside than marginal hitters with upside.

The lineup is already good enough even if you plug average players into the open spots.

The starting pitching is not.
Isn't the focus on bats to this point a function of the fact that there are so many more holes in the lineup than in the rotation?

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11-29-2012, 03:35 PM
  #614
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people hated him because it looked like he wasn't trying.

in reality he was just really good at what he did: get on base, play outstanding defense.
I'd say people hated him because he looked like he didn't care more so than he made it look easy. The guy was a very talented player, no question, but his lack of emotion is what people around here found fault with.

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11-29-2012, 03:43 PM
  #615
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I'd say people hated him because he looked like he didn't care more so than he made it look easy. The guy was a very talented player, no question, but his lack of emotion is what people around here found fault with.
And that was dumb.

That is like saying Atticus didn't care about Tom's case because he didn't show emotion.

(Hey, I'm allowed 4 nerdy literary references a year. And that was an easy one.)

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11-29-2012, 03:46 PM
  #616
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Isn't the focus on bats to this point a function of the fact that there are so many more holes in the lineup than in the rotation?
As a percentage of needs or as an absolute number?

One could probably make the argument that one quality bat (like Hamilton) and maybe a secondary one like Napoli could allow the Sox to pencil in a decent lineup, even when sprinkling in offensive crap like Iglesias, Lavarnway and Kalish (yes, I think Kalish is lousy).

But if you believe pitching wins, I'd argue the need in the rotation is as great or greater. They have no #1. Not the end of the world since few teams do, but their chief competitor in New York does, as do a few of their chief playoff competitors in the AL, and that's an issue. And winning in the playoffs without front-line starters is difficult. They have two #2/3's and one of them was a trainwreck last season. Doubront is probably a 4, and Lackey is either a 4/5 or toast. So really, to round out a quality rotation they need a 1, and at least one reliable 4/5 to eat innings. They probably need two of those latter guys. I don't know but I say the need for pitching trumps the need for hitting, with both needing real help.


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11-29-2012, 03:49 PM
  #617
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And that was dumb.

That is like saying Atticus didn't care about Tom's case because he didn't show emotion.

(Hey, I'm allowed 4 nerdy literary references a year. And that was an easy one.)
Referencing Tom and Jerry isn't exactly "nerdy" Mike.

Sports fans in Boston are easily fooled by dirt on the uniform. Always have been. Bottles the mind really.

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11-29-2012, 04:15 PM
  #618
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As a percentage of needs or as an absolute number?
More of an absolute number. i.e. there are five spots in the rotation, and probably three or four of them are filled, whereas there are nine spots in the lineup and probably four or five holes.

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But if you believe pitching wins, I'd argue the need in the rotation is as great or greater. They have no #1. Not the end of the world since few teams do, but their chief competitor in New York does, as do a few of their chief playoff competitors in the AL, and that's an issue. And winning in the playoffs without front-line starters is difficult. They have two #2/3's and one of them was a trainwreck last season. Doubront is probably a 4, and Lackey is either a 4/5 or toast. So really, to round out a quality rotation they need a 1, and at least one reliable 4/5 to eat innings. They probably need two of those latter guys. I don't know but I say the need for pitching trumps the need for hitting, with both needing real help.
Agreed, although with the caveat that I don't think they're going to get a #1 starter this year. The best hope is to have Farrell and Nieves work with Lester to get him back to being a #1 starter and maybe sign someone like Dan Haren and hope he can be a #2 or #3.

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11-29-2012, 05:50 PM
  #619
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I remember when the Red Sox were so desperate to sign people in about 24 hours they pissed away good money on three FA- Danny Darwin, Jack Clark, and Matt Young. I had to sit down when I heard it I was so bummed- it reaked last call hookup, Dec 24 Christma....opps, gotta be politically correct, umm no I don't (btw, anyone offended by the use of Christmas I hope you get a verinal disease from a toilet seat, it infects your brain and you go crazy and jump off the Tobin Bridge)....

then there was the Jose Offerman and Shane Mack era, err, error....and Andre Dawson.

Please Dear God, I can handle 81-81 with hope but don't give me this **** again

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11-29-2012, 05:52 PM
  #620
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#redsox now talking to adam laroche as well as napoli for first base. http://cbsprt.co/TwBOSZ

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11-29-2012, 05:52 PM
  #621
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Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS
#redsox now talking to adam laroche as well as napoli for first base. http://cbsprt.co/TwBOSZ
The Red Sox really want to get laid

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11-29-2012, 08:04 PM
  #622
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Mlb tonight guy just sugested we trade Lester for Tuluwitzki, I would do it but what would we have to add.

Sign Haren and Lohse to go with Buch and Dubront.

Sick infield WMB Tulu Pedy and find a first baseman that 3b ss and 2b is set for 7 years.


Last edited by Kelly23: 11-29-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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11-29-2012, 09:30 PM
  #623
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According to Jim Bowden of ESPN and SiriusXM, the Red Sox, White Sox and Angels are "playing on" Mike Adams.

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11-29-2012, 09:42 PM
  #624
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Mlb tonight guy just sugested we trade Lester for Tuluwitzki, I would do it but what would we have to add.

Sign Haren and Lohse to go with Buch and Dubront.

Sick infield WMB Tulu Pedy and find a first baseman that 3b ss and 2b is set for 7 years.
Yeah, we'd have to add a bunch I think.

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11-29-2012, 11:48 PM
  #625
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The Red Sox really want to get laid
Meh... they're both good players. We need good players.

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