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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Mark Cuban - Players out of their minds

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Old
02-07-2005, 04:26 PM
  #51
Greschner4
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Originally Posted by WhalerBoy
do YOU watch the NBA? Have you followed the western conference the last 5 years? Are you aware that to compete for a spot in the NBA finals in the West, you had to have Shaq or Duncan? The team has been a perennial contender, and even this year after losing Nash, continue to win.

So he spends in the top 25% of the league, but does not make it to the final 4 more than once in 5 years, and thats a bad team? If he spent like the Yankees, ok, but I for one believe spending money is not a gurantee for success, and he is smart enough to know that too. He tries to buy a good team, but there is only so much you can do in a league where one player can dominate a game moreso than in any other big league sport.

I agree with the posters that realize the guy is a genious at marketing and is a very successful businessman. he'd be an asset to the NHL as an owner.

I will however grant you whiners that the Nash thing was a mistake, but this is the same team that brought in Nowitzki when lots of other NBA teams passed on him, so keep that in mind.
Cuban didn't bring in Nowitzki.

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02-07-2005, 04:28 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Top Shelf
"I think the players are a little out of their minds."

The NBA, of course, has had a salary cap for decades. NHL owners have locked out their players, and the two sides are stuck in a cap-or-no-cap stalemate.

Cuban was asked if the hockey lockout is bad for sports in general.

"Actually, it could be very good for sports if people come to their senses on what the reality of the business of sport is today," Cuban said. "Hockey could set the tone. If it's handled correctly, it could be the best thing that ever happened to hockey.

"The players need a bit of a reality check," Cuban said. "This isn't 1995. I think hockey has a great future with high-definition television, but the economics have changed, and that's just reality.

"Not only are the economics not growing for hockey, but they actually lost a television deal. If the players don't realize that, and if the owners give in, then hockey could disappear."

Link
Something tells me that if the players were offered the same CBA the NBA has with its players, this thing would be over pretty quickly.

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02-07-2005, 04:31 PM
  #53
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I didn't mean he was a bad owner, or a bad businessman, I simply mean the man is nuts...I love him as an owner/businessman. I even love his comments all the time, I just think that a guy who constantly goes out in (what seems to be) purposeful attemtps to get himself fined by the league is possibly insane...lol

I would love him to be an NHL owner, he's just a nutcase with the officials...in fact...make him a coach.

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Old
02-07-2005, 04:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
Something tells me that if the players were offered the same CBA the NBA has with its players, this thing would be over pretty quickly.
We would have been playing by Thanksgiving.

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02-07-2005, 04:39 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
We would have been playing by Thanksgiving.
Which is why the players should have accepted the cap concept and negotiated the NBA-type exceptions that dramatically soften it.

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02-07-2005, 04:41 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Greschner4
Which is why the players should have accepted the cap concept and negotiated the NBA-type exceptions that dramatically soften it.
The NHL isn't going to accept anything like the NBA. I've heard Bettman on radio be asked that exact question numerous time and he wants absolutely NOTHING to do with an NBA typs soft cap/luxury tax CBA.

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02-07-2005, 04:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Greschner4
Cuban didn't bring in Nowitzki.
your right, he didnt. my mistake. It was before his tenure

I was trying to say give the team itself credit for making a great move like dealing for/drafting Nowitzki, and only giving up the tractor. that must be one of the worst trades in NBA history.

that said, i still like listening to his ideas, and its hard to argue with his success. You can have your Wirtz', I'll take a Cuban anyday. Innovative, and willing to spend money on his team. As long as the other teams can compete with him, I love it.

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02-07-2005, 04:44 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
We would have been playing by Thanksgiving.

is that american or canadian?


And cuban is right, the players are out of their mind. Their logic boggles my mind.

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02-07-2005, 04:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The NHL isn't going to accept anything like the NBA. I've heard Bettman on radio be asked that exact question numerous time and he wants absolutely NOTHING to do with an NBA typs soft cap/luxury tax CBA.
Come on, just cause he says it on radio you dont think he will accept it? Im not saying he will or wont, but just cause he said it on air, does not mean he wont accept it. Its called negotiating through the media, its all part of the same b.s. the players spew out about a cap.

hell, if you actually listened to these guys talk, youd think the NHL was dead forever.

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02-07-2005, 04:47 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The NHL isn't going to accept anything like the NBA. I've heard Bettman on radio be asked that exact question numerous time and he wants absolutely NOTHING to do with an NBA typs soft cap/luxury tax CBA.
Just to play devil's advocate ...

Despite months of vehement anti-cap rhetoric from the PA, you're willing to believe that's just negotiation posturing and they would have accepted a soft cap four months ago.
Yet when you hear Bettman say the league doesn't want a soft cap, it must be the truth.
Explain, please.

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02-07-2005, 04:49 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhalerBoy
Come on, just cause he says it on radio you dont think he will accept it? Im not saying he will or wont, but just cause he said it on air, does not mean he wont accept it. Its called negotiating through the media, its all part of the same b.s. the players spew out about a cap.
I do believe Bettman when he says that. In the NBA 26 or 29 teams are over the cap and some by as much as $40 million.

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02-07-2005, 04:51 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by CarlRacki
Just to play devil's advocate ...

Despite months of vehement anti-cap rhetoric from the PA, you're willing to believe that's just negotiation posturing and they would have accepted a soft cap four months ago.
Yet when you hear Bettman say the league doesn't want a soft cap, it must be the truth.
Explain, please.
IMO what the NBA has can hardly be called a salary cap. The "cap" part of the NBA CBA is worthless.

The luxury tax is the only thing that has any real, albeit minimal effect on spending in the NBA.

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02-07-2005, 04:54 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I do believe Bettman when he says that. In the NBA 26 or 29 teams are over the cap and some by as much as $40 million.
Thats your pregotive, and you may be right in the end. Im just saying I dont believe a lot of the stuff that comes out of either sides mouthpieces.

and yes, i agree, the NBA cap is not that strong, and it isnt much of a cap at all.

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Old
02-07-2005, 04:55 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
IMO what the NBA has can hardly be called a salary cap. The "cap" part of the NBA CBA is worthless.

The luxury tax is the only thing that has any real, albeit minimal effect on spending in the NBA.
I dont think its as minimal as you think. It may not be as though as the NFL's, but it certainly is better than baseball's.

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Old
02-07-2005, 04:59 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by WhalerBoy
I dont think its as minimal as you think. It may not be as though as the NFL's, but it certainly is better than baseball's.
Yes, it's better than MLB but that isn't saying too much.

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02-07-2005, 05:22 PM
  #66
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i don't think it will matter what the nhl's salary cap eventually turns out to be.

without revenue sharing, nothing is going to stop richer teams from spending more on players than small market clubs.

for an example, the philadelphia flyers.

let's presume jeremy roenick is a UFA.

jeremy we're going to offer you $ 2,300,000 to play for the Flyers.
... and if you sign ... Comcast would like to offer you a $ 5,200,000 per year tv contract to "produce" one of our hockey programs...etc.

rich teams are still going to spend big bucks because they can. without revenue sharing it doesn't matter what the cap is because richer teams will cheat, because they can afford to.

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02-07-2005, 05:39 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by hawker14
i don't think it will matter what the nhl's salary cap eventually turns out to be.

without revenue sharing, nothing is going to stop richer teams from spending more on players than small market clubs.

for an example, the philadelphia flyers.

let's presume jeremy roenick is a UFA.

jeremy we're going to offer you $ 2,300,000 to play for the Flyers.
... and if you sign ... Comcast would like to offer you a $ 5,200,000 per year tv contract to "produce" one of our hockey programs...etc.

rich teams are still going to spend big bucks because they can. without revenue sharing it doesn't matter what the cap is because richer teams will cheat, because they can afford to.
There will be harsh rules that won't allow teams to cheat.

Exp: Minnesota Timberwolves got caught and lost 5 First round draft picks., for issues involving Joe Smith

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02-07-2005, 05:40 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawker14
i don't think it will matter what the nhl's salary cap eventually turns out to be.

without revenue sharing, nothing is going to stop richer teams from spending more on players than small market clubs.

for an example, the philadelphia flyers.

let's presume jeremy roenick is a UFA.

jeremy we're going to offer you $ 2,300,000 to play for the Flyers.
... and if you sign ... Comcast would like to offer you a $ 5,200,000 per year tv contract to "produce" one of our hockey programs...etc.

rich teams are still going to spend big bucks because they can. without revenue sharing it doesn't matter what the cap is because richer teams will cheat, because they can afford to.
The NFL CBA contains language addressing this. An arrangement like this would be considered player salary and be counted against the cap. I don't doubt the NBA agreement has similar language.

NFL:

(ii) A playerís Salary shall also include any and all consideration received by the player or his Player Affiliate, even if such consideration is ostensibly paid to the player for services other than football playing services, if the NFL can demonstrate before the Impartial Arbitrator that the consideration paid to the player or Player Affiliate for such non-football services does not represent a reasonable approximation of the fair market value of such services as performed by such player. The Impartial Arbitratorís determination may take into account, among other things: (1) any actual dollar amounts the player or Player Affiliate received for similar non-football playing services from an independent third party; and (2) the percentage of total compensation for non-football services received from third parties versus the Team or Team Affiliate.
http://www.nflpa.org/Media/main.asp?...e=CBA+Complete

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02-07-2005, 07:21 PM
  #69
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Sort of like the comissioner.
:lol

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02-07-2005, 07:30 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
There will be harsh rules that won't allow teams to cheat.

Exp: Minnesota Timberwolves got caught and lost 5 First round draft picks., for issues involving Joe Smith
They won't cheat, they will just find the loopholes, and there will be loopholes, there always are.

You pay a player $X in signing bonus

You set up an unrealistic bonus that pays him unrealistic amounts of money.


How do you think Joe Thorton got that rookie contract? His agent found the loopholes and tested the waters. Jacobs can cry about the current state of the NHL all he wants, but fact of the matter is he opened the flood gates and has nobody to blame but himself.

Next time it will be another owner, but it will happen, and then we can watch all the small market teams crying foul.

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02-07-2005, 07:47 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Icey
They won't cheat, they will just find the loopholes, and there will be loopholes, there always are.

You pay a player $X in signing bonus

You set up an unrealistic bonus that pays him unrealistic amounts of money.


How do you think Joe Thorton got that rookie contract? His agent found the loopholes and tested the waters. Jacobs can cry about the current state of the NHL all he wants, but fact of the matter is he opened the flood gates and has nobody to blame but himself.

Next time it will be another owner, but it will happen, and then we can watch all the small market teams crying foul.

Yes, after going through all this, the small markets are going to leave large gaping loopholes where they will be exploited like they are today...

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Old
02-07-2005, 08:16 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eye
Cuban = Common Sense. Something many players, PA execs and a minority of HF posters seem to be lacking.
Actually anyone that supports either side in this mess is lacking alot of common sense


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02-07-2005, 08:18 PM
  #73
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I'd rather go to a hockey game hands down over any NBA game! The game itself is just so much better. I do agree that activites beyond the game are a little more entertaining in the NBA but not enough that I care at all. I won't argue that the NBA does an awesome job marketing their sport though. The NHL on the other hand is horrible. HORRIBLE!!
Good points. Mostly I think the music adds to the experience. I'd rather hear some funk-loop style hip-hop (the Roots) like they play at bball games than Cotton Eye Joe and Kickstart My Heart, which they seem to play at every bloody hockey game. Stompim Toms alright though. Thats tradition.

Mabye I'm a little biased since I play records, but I think background music is very important to keep peoples interests. Basketball utilizes that way more effectively tham hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icey
The NBA works off the theory that if you can draw the people to the games, they can make you fall in love with the game and keep coming back for more, and hence the success in the NBA.

The NHL on the other hands works off the theory that you fall in love with the game first and then attend a game. Problem is the NHL does not know how to televise a hockey game and hence it does not work.

Until the NHL changes their view point, new jersey's, new players and a re-launched NHL doesn't mean a thing.
I agree, but hockey is way more difficult to televise, since you cant really tell who the players are, unless youre a die-hard fan. They need to make it like in video games where the name of the player is on the ice under him.

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02-07-2005, 08:28 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icey
They won't cheat, they will just find the loopholes, and there will be loopholes, there always are.

You pay a player $X in signing bonus

You set up an unrealistic bonus that pays him unrealistic amounts of money.
In other capped leagues, bonus money and incentives are counted against the cap. Though I sometimes question the owners' intellect, I doubt these concepts will slip past them.

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02-07-2005, 08:39 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Cawz
Good points. Mostly I think the music adds to the experience. I'd rather hear some funk-loop style hip-hop (the Roots) like they play at bball games than Cotton Eye Joe and Kickstart My Heart, which they seem to play at every bloody hockey game. Stompim Toms alright though. Thats tradition.

Mabye I'm a little biased since I play records, but I think background music is very important to keep peoples interests. Basketball utilizes that way more effectively tham hockey.

I agree, but hockey is way more difficult to televise, since you cant really tell who the players are, unless youre a die-hard fan. They need to make it like in video games where the name of the player is on the ice under him.
The difference in the music and the different leagues is that basketball is playing their music while the play is going on. They are getting the fans into the action. They are up on their feet. With hockey, the music is played when play stops. Not while they battle for the puck along the boards, not when they are on the powerplay, but when the play stops. It makes no sense. Get the fans into the game. Instead we sit there likes bumps on a log until someone scores. Play the music while the play is going on. I suppose they will say then the players can't hear each other, or the ref's but I bet they will learn to adjust.

The other thing that basketball does is on the jumbotron they are showing basketball highlights or anything basketball. In hockey we get to watch endless advertising with a little hockey thrown in every once in a while.

As for televising the game. I know it doesn't televise as well and that is exactly why they need to draw the fan to arena for the atmosphere and the fun of the game and then make them fall in love with the game instead of waiting for the fans to fall in love with the game first and then draw them to the arena. They keep saying once you draw a fan to the arena they are hooked, well then, do something to draw them to the arena. And a 2 for 1 ticket deal isn't my idea of drawing the fans to the arena.

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