HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Luongo Thread: Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (Mod Warning in OP)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-08-2012, 09:18 PM
  #226
Tiranis
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 20,956
vCash: 500
FWIW, the Stat FAQ on the Behind the Net site is pretty useful in understanding the shortcuts they use: http://www.behindthenet.ca/stats_faq.php — you can actually click on each line and it will give you a more detailed description (I didn't notice that feature until a few days ago).

Tiranis is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 09:18 PM
  #227
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 46,400
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I've been on these boards for about 3 months and I think the most annoying thing ever is when players rate based on corsi stats. They are so stupid. They show a very small picture in the grand scheme of things. The best way to evaluate a player is to WATCH him. When doing that, you will see Phaneuf is actually a very good defense-man. He just has a bad rap like Luongo does.
Watching players opens you up for personal bias to creep into your analysis. I think that there is a place for traditional scouting, but you need to have a good mixture of both.

__________________
http://www.vancitynitetours.com
y2kcanucks is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 09:53 PM
  #228
Jay Cee
P4G
 
Jay Cee's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,823
vCash: 500
Phaneuf is a far better dman than his reputation with hockey fans in such venues as this suggests, he is also overrated in more mainstream hockey circles. Opinions are like *******s as they say..

I'd love to have him on my team, especially in a Luongo type trade. That is a really really moot point though. If we want to talk about how x marginal prospect is for some weird reason somehow untouchable for Luongo, Phaneuf is really a non starter.

BTW. Are we really sure Luongo even with a gun to his head about options would go to Toronto? That's kind of a big deal.

Jay Cee is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 10:31 PM
  #229
ddawg1950
Registered User
 
ddawg1950's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,675
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Based on that I'm just going to assume you don't know anything about hockey. Whether it's advanced stats or watching him, Phaneuf is more than capable of playing like a #1b defenseman on an otherwise piss-poor team with some of the worst goaltending in the league.

Phaneuf, this season, played minutes that were significantly more difficult than the ones Hamhuis and Bieksa got, and comparable to what Weber and Suter got. Despite that he actually ended up with 5th best Corsi Relative amongst all Toronto players.

Hell, the mere fact that he can go out there and soak up 20 minutes of ES ice-time playing that kind of competition should show that he's more than capable as a defenseman.
Assume all you want. It is just as easy for me to call you on your lack of knowledge. Just don't have your head so buried in stats...or wherever you may have it buried...and forget to watch what is on the ice.

I have watched him make bonehead play after bonhead play, make the big hit only to leave himself out of position. What was he when the Leafs needed him to step up....a minus 10? Lead them to the playoffs...oh, those were lottery picks.

I would not take him on my team. You would.

But I am willing to bet that GIllis will not.

Are you?

ddawg1950 is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 11:22 PM
  #230
Reverend Mayhem
Freeway's closed man
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,060
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Watching players opens you up for personal bias to creep into your analysis. I think that there is a place for traditional scouting, but you need to have a good mixture of both.
Red Wings' scout Hakan Andersson says you should only watch 4-6 games of the player so you will know enough about him, but not be too excited about them either. Or something like that.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 11:31 PM
  #231
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,963
vCash: 13357
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
I've been on these boards for about 3 months and I think the most annoying thing ever is when players rate based on corsi stats. They are so stupid. They show a very small picture in the grand scheme of things. The best way to evaluate a player is to WATCH him. When doing that, you will see Phaneuf is actually a very good defense-man. He just has a bad rap like Luongo does.
Phaneuf's biggest problem is a combination of somewhat mediocre defense and lackluster speed. This often means when he makes a mistake, it really shows simply because he isn't fast enough to catch up. Another issue is Toronto has a terrible supporting cast. You pair Phaneuf with someone like Hamhuis and the league cries. He needs someone defensive oriented that can jump on the puck when speedy players get by him.

While a slow pairing, Kronwall and Phaneuf together would be frightening.

Ironically, the best player for the job in Toronto was traded to acquire Phaneuf; namely Ian White.

Incidentally, I might be convinced to do a trade involving Phaneuf but should deal Edler in that scenario to address or forward needs.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
11-08-2012, 11:43 PM
  #232
Pseudonymous
Registered User
 
Pseudonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,498
vCash: 500
While im not sure its the case with him too but people on this board said the same about Mitchell who was a favorite of mine and to watch him on the kings last year really disappointed me because it should have been with us.

I can't say i've REALLY analyzed Phaneufs play but all the games i've seen him in, hes been solid and i dont think his speed hurts him that much and because hes so solid in other areas, it more than makes up for it.. and most D are beaten by speed sometimes, there are loads of speedy forwards in the NHL, maybe when it happens to D who are a tad slower, you are quicker to jump on that being the reason.

Go mitchell

Ive always been a fan of D who hold their guys to the board instead of little tiny pushes that do nothing and eventually they make a play cuz theyre given enough room and time. If youre going to be weak on the boards, you better be VERY skilled with your stick.

I want those strong on the board D and strong on their skates D like Phaneuf. Those solid big strong D are usually what you need in the playoffs, some people think otherwise because our stars are challenged more by strong skaters with a good stick.

Pseudonymous is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 12:43 AM
  #233
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,278
vCash: 5555
From the main boards:

Schneider, Kassian, and Schroeder for Kessel + 2nd.

What do you think? I'd do it.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 12:51 AM
  #234
KISSland
Registered User
 
KISSland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,682
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From the main boards:

Schneider, Kassian, and Schroeder for Kessel + 2nd.

What do you think? I'd do it.
Nope.

KISSland is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:04 AM
  #235
Vankiller Whale
Maybe HE can score
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,278
vCash: 5555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Figz14 View Post
Nope.
Why not? Any questions we'd have about our scoring will be gone(The Sedins + Kessel on the 1st PP unit would be lethal) Kassian has been great but you've got to give to get. Kessel is a 24 year old PPG player that managed to turn Bozak into a 47 point centre and rejuvenated Lupul's career. He scores, and makes the players around him better.

And to be honest, in a deep draft a 2nd could very well allow us to pick up a faller.

Also, I don't think Schroeder would ever get a legit chance in Vancouver, especially with the lockout whittling away any chance Schroeder could have had filling in for Kesler.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:12 AM
  #236
Chubros
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From the main boards:

Schneider, Kassian, and Schroeder for Kessel + 2nd.

What do you think? I'd do it.
Schneider being traded is only slightly more likely at this time than Crosby being moved. Why even bother speculating about such scenarios? Wishful thinking on the part of Luongo fans, I suspect.

Chubros is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:14 AM
  #237
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From the main boards:

Schneider, Kassian, and Schroeder for Kessel + 2nd.

What do you think? I'd do it.
God no. I wouldn't trade Schneider for Kessel. I certainly wouldn't trade Kassian for a pick

craigcaulks* is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:16 AM
  #238
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Why not? Any questions we'd have about our scoring will be gone(The Sedins + Kessel on the 1st PP unit would be lethal) Kassian has been great but you've got to give to get. Kessel is a 24 year old PPG player that managed to turn Bozak into a 47 point centre and rejuvenated Lupul's career. He scores, and makes the players around him better.

And to be honest, in a deep draft a 2nd could very well allow us to pick up a faller.

Also, I don't think Schroeder would ever get a legit chance in Vancouver, especially with the lockout whittling away any chance Schroeder could have had filling in for Kesler.
We dominate the NHL in scoring in the regular season. We do NOT need a charmin soft winger for the playoffs who can't score against the team you'd THINK he'd be really up for.

Schroeder is meaningless in this discussion.

craigcaulks* is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:17 AM
  #239
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Watching players opens you up for personal bias to creep into your analysis. I think that there is a place for traditional scouting, but you need to have a good mixture of both.
Phaneuf or Ehrhoff, salaries aside? Feel free to corsi yourself to death.

craigcaulks* is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:31 AM
  #240
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
From the main boards:

Schneider, Kassian, and Schroeder for Kessel + 2nd.

What do you think? I'd do it.


So when there was a question/concern about moving Schneider for Kessel, you ignored it and favoured even more going to TO?


Read back to when you posted about a similar Schneider/Kessel swap.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 01:47 AM
  #241
Wisp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,989
vCash: 500
No way. You don't get Schneider AND Kassian. Even then, I'd be hesitant because Kessel's set to become a UFA in the next while.

Wisp is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:08 AM
  #242
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,963
vCash: 13357
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
We dominate the NHL in scoring in the regular season. We do NOT need a charmin soft winger for the playoffs who can't score against the team you'd THINK he'd be really up for.

Schroeder is meaningless in this discussion.
And yet come playoff team, we have been routinely humiliated by our lack of scoring. While I might want a little more than a second added. Kessel would be absolutely unreal to acquire. Do you recall Ottawa back when they ran their juggernaut line? We'd have a better one and a vastly superior team to boot. Frankly, that kind of scoring could make us win the cup twice.

Personally, I'll take my chances with a juggernaut of a team and Lack replacing Luongo down the road. Added bonus being Kessel is young enough to still be in his prime when the Sedin era ends.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:15 AM
  #243
Socratic Method Man
Weise's Lost Lunch
 
Socratic Method Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,666
vCash: 622
A less-known fact: Kessel has never been physically contacted in the NHL. This wasn't an accident.

So how do you think he would do in the playoffs, when all there is is physical contact and interference and holding and clogging up the ice? If you watch him play against Boston in the regular season - and watch him hide away all game long - you probably have your answer.

Socratic Method Man is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:20 AM
  #244
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And yet come playoff team, we have been routinely humiliated by our lack of scoring. While I might want a little more than a second added. Kessel would be absolutely unreal to acquire. Do you recall Ottawa back when they ran their juggernaut line? We'd have a better one and a vastly superior team to boot. Frankly, that kind of scoring could make us win the cup twice.

Personally, I'll take my chances with a juggernaut of a team and Lack replacing Luongo down the road. Added bonus being Kessel is young enough to still be in his prime when the Sedin era ends.


With the way the game is being called right now, what makes you think Kessel is any kind of cure-all?



Kessel is a great player, but he is not the _type_ of player this team should be targeting at the price of Schneider. Oh sure, if you get him for a song, by all means. Do so. But until you can, stick with the plan... and the plan is Kassian, Jensen, Gaunce etc... Bigger players. You need those bigger players to sustain up-ice pressure along the opposing team's boards or near their net. Without it, you are going to see what you have already seen.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:20 AM
  #245
Socratic Method Man
Weise's Lost Lunch
 
Socratic Method Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,666
vCash: 622
The other thing is this. Do you guys remember why Kessel was traded to Boston in the first place? It was largely because he was demanding a really high salary. So they traded him to Toronto.

The summer after next Kessel is a free agent - and not a RFA this time, but a UFA. Do you think he will take a discount this time? I couldn't imagine it. I bet he will squeeze out every last penny from the UFA market - with no allegiances to whatever team he is on. That wouldn't sit well with our team, our management, or our lockerroom.

Socratic Method Man is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:45 AM
  #246
Reverend Mayhem
Freeway's closed man
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,060
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Bleach:

I really like Gaunce, but for whatever reason I don't think he's in the Canucks organization to say.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 02:52 AM
  #247
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Bleach:

I really like Gaunce, but for whatever reason I don't think he's in the Canucks organization to say.



What makes you say that? If any C is in danger of losing his Canucks passport it's Schroeder, not Gaunce. Further, I expect Gillis to get yet another C prospect in the Luongo deal...


C, LW and RD are the weak points of the Canucks pipeline. Gaunce directly addresses one of those points.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 03:26 AM
  #248
Bourne Endeavor
Moderator
( _)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■)
 
Bourne Endeavor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,963
vCash: 13357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
A less-known fact: Kessel has never been physically contacted in the NHL. This wasn't an accident.

So how do you think he would do in the playoffs, when all there is is physical contact and interference and holding and clogging up the ice? If you watch him play against Boston in the regular season - and watch him hide away all game long - you probably have your answer.
For someone who hides in the playoffs, he put up 11 points back in 2009 in as many games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
With the way the game is being called right now, what makes you think Kessel is any kind of cure-all?



Kessel is a great player, but he is not the _type_ of player this team should be targeting at the price of Schneider. Oh sure, if you get him for a song, by all means. Do so. But until you can, stick with the plan... and the plan is Kassian, Jensen, Gaunce etc... Bigger players. You need those bigger players to sustain up-ice pressure along the opposing team's boards or near their net. Without it, you are going to see what you have already seen.
I never said he was a cure-all, but merely his talent with our respectively roster would be absolutely lethal.

What makes you assured size is little more than the current NHL trend? When Leighton put on a clinic a while back, people hopped aboard the belief elite goaltenders were a dying breed and you could be frugal in that position. How well has that worked for San Jose, Toronto, Philly and Washington?

Regardless, Kassian is far from the end all be all of physical players. Even with his departure that does nothing to prevent us from acquiring one afterward or calling up the other players you mentioned. The difference here is whether you believe Kassian will benefit us within the next two years. I do not. Kessel would and would continue to do so well into his career, assuming we resign him.

Bourne Endeavor is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 03:36 AM
  #249
Reverend Mayhem
Freeway's closed man
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,060
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
What makes you say that? If any C is in danger of losing his Canucks passport it's Schroeder, not Gaunce. Further, I expect Gillis to get yet another C prospect in the Luongo deal...


C, LW and RD are the weak points of the Canucks pipeline. Gaunce directly addresses one of those points.
I don't think it will be the Canucks that will not want him to be here.

Reverend Mayhem is offline  
Old
11-09-2012, 03:48 AM
  #250
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,297
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I never said he was a cure-all, but merely his talent with our respectively roster would be absolutely lethal.


The two stanley cups line kind of made it seem that way. Apologies if I misunderstood you.



Quote:
What makes you assured size is little more than the current NHL trend? When Leighton put on a clinic a while back, people hopped aboard the belief elite goaltenders were a dying breed and you could be frugal in that position. How well has that worked for San Jose, Toronto, Philly and Washington?


It could be a trend... But why not build a team that isn't subject to trends? Right now they play a skill game. It does well vs. opponents that also try to play a skill game. However, it fails against the bigger, grinding teams. So if they add enough bigger, grinding elements themselves, they can play against any style. Handle more situations. Essentially, be more versatile than they are now. Logical?






Quote:
Regardless, Kassian is far from the end all be all of physical players. Even with his departure that does nothing to prevent us from acquiring one afterward or calling up the other players you mentioned. The difference here is whether you believe Kassian will benefit us within the next two years. I do not. Kessel would and would continue to do so well into his career, assuming we resign him.



Remember the line Gillis spoke: If Kassian reaches his potential, there's maybe 5-6 players in the league he joins (not verbatim), and those players don't become available afterwards... That's what Kassian represents, the opportunity to develop that type of player in-house. He cost Hodgson. Does this team have a bunch of Hodgson level prospects to trade that they can be so non-chalant about trading Kassian now? No. They don't.



Simply put, he _is_ the new direction of the Canucks. He isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.