I actually choose Bozak. Obviously i"d like to improve our #1C position, but with what we have, Bozak works best with Kessel and Lupul. To be honest, i am not sd on Colbourne...if he could learn to use his size it would be better. Leafs fans value him so high as he is the best rated center prospect we have...which says a ton about our depth at center.
I'm not sold on Colborne either, , not fully, though he has a lot of tools, but I would take a chance on him than on Bozak. From your perspective, I know why you would value Bozak more. So should we replace Bozak with Colborne?
Next question: Who do you value more? Kadri or Frattin? Frattin played in your bottom 6 last year, so I'm guessing you would value the sure thing over the boom/bust aspect of Kadri. Therefore, can we replace Frattin with Kadri?
Quote:
In all fairness...Gardiner and our 1st may be the best 2 pieces of all of your proposals...so addinga young physical winger and a 3c that can fill in on the second line kinda tips the scales.
Nope.
TOR's 1st doesn't touch EDM's. Klefbom is also highly touted.
I like Petrovic just as much as I like Gardiner. Maybe even more so because he fills the right-shot need within this organization. And I am very high on Erixon. Which isn't even the best asset in the CLB package. That would be the _legit_ NHLer in Anisimov.
Recency is making your argument. Gardiner recently had a successful rookie campaign in the show, but that doesn't mean Petrovic and Erixon could not also have strong rookie campaigns once there. It's Bozak vs. Colborne all over again. You favour Bozak because he's done something in the NHL for your team, while I favour Colborne because he is likely to do something when he gets to the NHL --> And that something will be of greater importance than what Bozak has done or will do.
I don't think that's fair value, because I will agree that Luongo's contract lowers his value, but not nearly as low as some Leaf fans think.
I think a fair deal would be:
- A top 6 forward (Lupul or Grabovski)
- a good prospect or 1st round pick not protected (Kadri/Colborne/1st round pick)
- Cody Franson
- a cap dump in Connolly or Lombardi to fill our need for a 3rd line center
- maybe a 3rd round pick?
for
- Luongo
- Mason Raymond
LL is not talking about fair, he's talking about equivalents. He recognizes that Frattin + Bozak + 1st + Gardiner was the _asking_ price. The demand. Not the offer.
I don't think that's fair value, because I will agree that Luongo's contract lowers his value, but not nearly as low as some Leaf fans think.
I think a fair deal would be:
- A top 6 forward (Lupul or Grabovski)
- a good prospect or 1st round pick not protected (Kadri/Colborne/1st round pick)
- Cody Franson
- a cap dump in Connolly or Lombardi to fill our need for a 3rd line center
- maybe a 3rd round pick?
for
- Luongo
- Mason Raymond
Wow...so potentially it could be Lupul, 1st, Franson, Connolly and a 3rd???? That is almost worse. And by the way....no Raymond.
Of course, lockout or no lockout, fans want to know about your unique goaltending situation. How do you view what is in front of you -- is it an opportunity for the organization or strictly business?
"Well, I look at it in multiple ways. I really like Roberto [Luongo]. I like him as a person. I like him as a goaltender. He's a phenomenal guy, a phenomenally hard-working player, zero maintenance. He is the kind of guy that any team would like to have. If we're going to make a transaction, do anything, it's going to be done so we can improve our team in other ways.
"When you take an All-Star player off your team, you have to do that with a lot of faith that you're improving in different areas. And, you know, I don't see that big of an issue if Roberto is with us. I don't see that as an issue at all. I think he's a true professional and I know he and Cory [Schneider] have a great relationship. You know, that may end up being the plan depending on when we get started. I think they would both be fine with it. We're going to do what is best for our hockey team. We're going to make sure we're in the best position to win the Stanley Cup and that may be with both goaltenders."
I'm down with both goalies! Please and thank you. A lot of games played in a short period of time, we're gonna need them.
Wow...so potentially it could be Lupul, 1st, Franson, Connolly and a 3rd???? That is almost worse. And by the way....no Raymond.
Connolly/Lombardi is almost worthless, and many leafs fans insist on sending at least one of them back (or Komisarek) in a trade.
Franson is a depth d-man.
Lupul is an upcoming UFA who had one really good season, I value him pretty much the same as Grabovski (signed for longer).
And yeah, there isn't room for Raymond if we get two NHL forwards in a trade, so you gotta take him.
I like to think of it as Luongo for Lupul/Grabovski + Kadri/Colborne/1st, and Raymond for Franson + cap dump + 3rd.
I'm not sold on Colborne either, , not fully, though he has a lot of tools, but I would take a chance on him than on Bozak. From your perspective, I know why you would value Bozak more. So should we replace Bozak with Colborne?
Next question: Who do you value more? Kadri or Frattin? Frattin played in your bottom 6 last year, so I'm guessing you would value the sure thing over the boom/bust aspect of Kadri. Therefore, can we replace Frattin with Kadri?
Nope.
TOR's 1st doesn't touch EDM's. Klefbom is also highly touted.
I like Petrovic just as much as I like Gardiner. Maybe even more so because he fills the right-shot need within this organization. And I am very high on Erixon. Which isn't even the best asset in the CLB package. That would be the _legit_ NHLer in Anisimov.
Recency is making your argument. Gardiner recently had a successful rookie campaign in the show, but that doesn't mean Petrovic and Erixon could not also have strong rookie campaigns once there. It's Bozak vs. Colborne all over again. You favour Bozak because he's done something in the NHL for your team, while I favour Colborne because he is likely to do something when he gets to the NHL --> And that something will be of greater importance than what Bozak has done or will do.
See now Bleach...your speaking from both sides of your mouth. You earlier told me that i should not value potential over what Luongo has "proven" thus we should move our 1st and our youth. NOW you admit Gardiner had a really good rookie year but you value Klefbom"s and Petrovic' "potential" higher...which is it. Aldo...it doesn't matter how i value Kadri/Frattin or Bozak/Colborne because the bottom line is you will still want 4 pieces including our 1st which is to much.
Connolly/Lombardi is almost worthless, and many leafs fans insist on sending at least one of them back (or Komisarek) in a trade.
Franson is a depth d-man.
Lupul is an upcoming UFA who had one really good season, I value him pretty much the same as Grabovski (signed for longer).
And yeah, there isn't room for Raymond if we get two NHL forwards in a trade, so you gotta take him.
I like to think of it as Luongo for Lupul/Grabovski + Kadri/Colborne/1st, and Raymond for Franson + cap dump + 3rd.
We cannot deal Lupul..his success with Kessel us just to important. He has already stated that he is incredibly grateful to Burke for giving him a shot..so resigning should not be an issue. I would rather keep Connolly if it means we don't take Raymond...in case you haven't noticed...centers are not in abundance here. We can waive Lombo or deal him for a 5th somewhere.
We cannot deal Lupul..his success with Kessel us just to important. He has already stated that he is incredibly grateful to Burke for giving him a shot..so resigning should not be an issue. I would rather keep Connolly if it means we don't take Raymond...in case you haven't noticed...centers are not in abundance here. We can waive Lombo or deal him for a 5th somewhere.
The Leafs will have to give up some quality and not just quantity.
If the only available pieces are mediocre prospects and depth players, the Canucks will have zero interest. We already have plenty of middle 6 forwards and "meh" prospects.
See now Bleach...your speaking from both sides of your mouth. You earlier told me that i should not value potential over what Luongo has "proven" thus we should move our 1st and our youth. NOW you admit Gardiner had a really good rookie year but you value Klefbom"s and Petrovic' "potential" higher...which is it. Aldo...it doesn't matter how i value Kadri/Frattin or Bozak/Colborne because the bottom line is you will still want 4 pieces including our 1st which is to much.
The question is still valid, who do you value more: Kadri or Frattin? Your reasoning is that Frattin is a contributing NHLer, just like Bozak. So by that reasoning you should value him more than Kadri correct?
I think you are confusing the argument. For TO, it makes sense to move youth for a proven asset right now. They aren't rebuilding IMO, they are retooling, and Luongo is a great step in that direction.
As to Gardiner vs. Petrovic vs. Klefbom. VAN... _VAN_ can afford to see the big picture on all three, while TO cannot. Gardiner has proven more, but is his record such that Petrovic and Klefbom would have to make great leaps to achieve the same? No. He has _one_ season under his belt. By contrast, Luongo has what 10 years on his resume? "Proven" means something else entirely between these two assets. I'm surprised you are equating the two.
The Leafs will have to give up some quality and not just quantity.
If the only available pieces are mediocre prospects and depth players, the Canucks will have zero interest. We already have plenty of middle 6 forwards and "meh" prospects.
Ya..i get it. That is why i don't think it gets done. We would be filling one hole and creating another.
The question is still valid, who do you value more: Kadri or Frattin? Your reasoning is that Frattin is a contributing NHLer, just like Bozak. So by that reasoning you should value him more than Kadri correct?
I think you are confusing the argument. For TO, it makes sense to move youth for a proven asset right now. They aren't rebuilding IMO, they are retooling, and Luongo is a great step in that direction.
As to Gardiner vs. Petrovic vs. Klefbom. VAN... _VAN_ can afford to see the big picture on all three, while TO cannot. Gardiner has proven more, but is his record such that Petrovic and Klefbom would have to make great leaps to achieve the same? No. He has _one_ season under his belt. By contrast, Luongo has what 10 years on his resume? "Proven" means something else entirely between these two assets. I'm surprised you are equating the two.
If i value Frattin over Kadri it has nothing to do with NHL experience. It has everything to do with the fact that i am not high on Kadri...i mean at all. I am a Leafs season ticket holder as well as the London Knights so it's safe to say i have seen alot of him. He definately has the tools, but he also has the attitude that he is owed his spot. I don't like his work ethic.Leaf fans have come at me hard on this....but so far, the kid hasn't shown the heart. There are alot of our prospects i value over Kadri for this reason. This is also the reason that Frattin got his shot before Kadri IMO.
Ya..i get it. That is why i don't think it gets done. We would be filling one hole and creating another.
From my point of view, it's better for the Leafs long-term if they create a hole by acquiring Luongo. (let me explain)
First off, they'll have a surplus of young goalies with some potential, so they could move one of them (maybe Reimer) to a team needing a younger goalie (like New Jersey). They could get a roster player to help them now, or a prospect/pick that they could move in another trade to help them now.
Second, as you are probably well aware, there is a very good crop of upcoming UFAs. Having an all-star goalie will help attract good players more than having an extra top 6 forward (Lupul/Grabo) and a young, unproven goalie.
Third, one top 6 forward usually isn't a reason for a team to miss the playoffs. A starting goalie can (and has) been a reason why a team misses the playoffs/makes the playoffs.
He can work on the third or fourth line; better suited for Top 6 though, but he is a versatile player.
I have no problem moving him in a deal that makes sense, but by no means would I add him into a deal he has no place being in.
His lack of physicality just gets frustrating. He gets pushed around a ton in the playoffs, and the 3rd and 4th lines are usually energy lines that can play gritty.
From my point of view, it's better for the Leafs long-term if they create a hole by acquiring Luongo. (let me explain)
First off, they'll have a surplus of young goalies with some potential, so they could move one of them (maybe Reimer) to a team needing a younger goalie (like New Jersey). They could get a roster player to help them now, or a prospect/pick that they could move in another trade to help them now.
Second, as you are probably well aware, there is a very good crop of upcoming UFAs. Having an all-star goalie will help attract good players more than having an extra top 6 forward (Lupul/Grabo) and a young, unproven goalie.
Third, one top 6 forward usually isn't a reason for a team to miss the playoffs. A starting goalie can (and has) been a reason why a team misses the playoffs/makes the playoffs.
Normally i'd agree...but we have zero top 6 replacements. Hypothetically...if i where to make a deal it would be Lupul, Grabo is our best center andthe only one that plays D. Now, if i am going to break up the Kessel Lupul line i am not willing to deal our 1st along with it. I will take Raymond to help you out if need be. So...can we do something with Lupul, Kadri/Colbourne a 2nd and something else for Luongo and Raymond?
Normally i'd agree...but we have zero top 6 replacements. Hypothetically...if i where to make a deal it would be Lupul, Grabo is our best center andthe only one that plays D. Now, if i am going to break up the Kessel Lupul line i am not willing to deal our 1st along with it. I will take Raymond to help you out if need be. So...can we do something with Lupul, Kadri/Colbourne a 2nd and something else for Luongo and Raymond?
Hope that the change of scenery/coaching gets Raymond back into his top 6 form.
Plus the Leafs acquired JVR, which would be a top 6 replacement for Lupul this/next season.
And the something else will probably have to be a center, considering that we currently lack a 3rd line center, and Kesler is expected to be out until late December/early January.
Hope that the change of scenery/coaching gets Raymond back into his top 6 form.
Plus the Leafs acquired JVR, which would be a top 6 replacement for Lupul this/next season.
And the something else will probably have to be a center, considering that we currently lack a 3rd line center, and Kesler is expected to be out until late December/early January.
If i value Frattin over Kadri it has nothing to do with NHL experience. It has everything to do with the fact that i am not high on Kadri...i mean at all. I am a Leafs season ticket holder as well as the London Knights so it's safe to say i have seen alot of him. He definately has the tools, but he also has the attitude that he is owed his spot. I don't like his work ethic.Leaf fans have come at me hard on this....but so far, the kid hasn't shown the heart. There are alot of our prospects i value over Kadri for this reason. This is also the reason that Frattin got his shot before Kadri IMO.
I understand your stance, but this is why it has been so frustrating trying to find a common ground with some TO fans. There are many that view Kadri as a weak prospect. The same with Colborne. And it stands to reason that they _should_ be viewed as lesser assets to the progressing (NHL contributing, whatever you want to call it) Bozak + Frattin. But when Canuck fans move off these assets to include Colborne and/or Kadri, it's met with the same resistance... Why?
It's not like other people don't know who these prospects are. Or these people haven't watched Bozak and Frattin many times over, it's just that Leafs fans don't want to give up almost _anything_ of real value. Even highly questionable prospects. Granted, you have been OK with giving up the 1st (at times), but that alone isn't going to get it done, otherwise Gillis would have asked Luongo to waive when he received the Kulemin + Komisarek + 1st counter in June. He did not. He didn't even allow a personal meeting between Burke and Luongo... That should tell you what you need to know about how highly he covets the 1st alone.
The long stance of some Canucks fans has been a 1st + a _good_ prospect. From any team. If you downgrade from "good" then you should get an extra shot in the dark, which is why some proposals include a 1st + Kadri + Colborne. However, even that package has the very real chance of not producing a single roster player for VAN. Yet it might the best TO can do without subtracting off their NHL roster. There in lies the conundrum... What would you take? A 1st + Kadri + Colborne or a 1st + Petrovic...? I know which one I'd choose. Hence, people looking for the 4th asset from TO. It's not hard to follow the logic actually.
His lack of physicality just gets frustrating. He gets pushed around a ton in the playoffs, and the 3rd and 4th lines are usually energy lines that can play gritty.
Not a liability defensively, more capable offensively than the normal 3rd or 4th line player. Can play the PK, still has the potential to be a solid source of secondary scoring. Raymond is not yet worth giving up on, and dumping.
I understand your stance, but this is why it has been so frustrating trying to find a common ground with some TO fans. There are many that view Kadri as a weak prospect. The same with Colborne. And it stands to reason that they _should_ be viewed as lesser assets to the progressing (NHL contributing, whatever you want to call it) Bozak + Frattin. But when Canuck fans move off these assets to include Colborne and/or Kadri, it's met with the same resistance... Why?
It's not like other people don't know who these prospects are. Or these people haven't watched Bozak and Frattin many times over, it's just that Leafs fans don't want to give up almost _anything_ of real value. Even highly questionable prospects. Granted, you have been OK with giving up the 1st (at times), but that alone isn't going to get it done, otherwise Gillis would have asked Luongo to waive when he received the Kulemin + Komisarek + 1st counter in June. He did not. He didn't even allow a personal meeting between Burke and Luongo... That should tell you what you need to know about how highly he covets the 1st alone.
The long stance of some Canucks fans has been a 1st + a _good_ prospect. From any team. If you downgrade from "good" then you should get an extra shot in the dark, which is why some proposals include a 1st + Kadri + Colborne. However, even that package has the very real chance of not producing a single roster player for VAN. Yet it might the best TO can do without subtracting off their NHL roster. There in lies the conundrum... What would you take? A 1st + Kadri + Colborne or a 1st + Petrovic...? I know which one I'd choose. Hence, people looking for the 4th asset from TO. It's not hard to follow the logic actually.
First, and speaking only for myself, i would include Kadri or Colbourne in a Luongo deal. I would also "consider" trading our 1st. I would also "consider" trading Lupul. Where things get fuzzy is when most if not all of these are wanted. If we deal a top 6 player adding our 1st is a nogo. If we dwal our 1st...adding a guy like Gardiner is a nogo.
First, and speaking only for myself, i would include Kadri or Colbourne in a Luongo deal. I would also "consider" trading our 1st. I would also "consider" trading Lupul. Where things get fuzzy is when most if not all of these are wanted. If we deal a top 6 player adding our 1st is a nogo. If we dwal our 1st...adding a guy like Gardiner is a nogo.
More than understood. I was saying a while back that VAN would get a 1st or Gardiner, but not both. I still hold to that statement.
The key here is that if I'm not getting a good prospect, I need another bullet in the chamber. I need another chance to produce a player.
Would you do a 1st + Colborne + Kadri? Something I see as an equivalent of a 1st and a good prospect. That's what a 1st and Petrovic is to me.
