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11-19-2012, 11:57 PM
  #826
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Your statement stands without it.

I would never want to promise a rookie anything. Let him earn it.
Exactly. Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Burrows and more have had to earn their stripes, why should an unproven player just like them be handed a role right off the bat? Happy MG didn't do that because then it sets a precedent for future prospects in our system; "Yeah well Schultz got a big role, and that's what I want".

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11-19-2012, 11:59 PM
  #827
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Mac>>Raymond
MacArthur is a tweener, and Raymond is a tweener. How is MacArthur >> better then Raymond?

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11-20-2012, 12:26 AM
  #828
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Originally Posted by PG Canuck View Post
Exactly. Kesler, Bieksa, Edler, Burrows and more have had to earn their stripes, why should an unproven player just like them be handed a role right off the bat? Happy MG didn't do that because then it sets a precedent for future prospects in our system; "Yeah well Schultz got a big role, and that's what I want".
Wonder how EDM handles a situation like that going forward, with precedents and all.

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11-20-2012, 09:04 AM
  #829
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Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.


Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.

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11-20-2012, 09:12 AM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.

Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.
You guys all know i'm not a huge Kadri fan, but watching him this season (although an early slump), he seems to be getting it. His defense, while still not stellar, is getting much better. I think we can finally see what Roberts did for him as well, much tougher to move off the puck AND is actually throwing some hits. Couple that with 14 points in 14 games and AHL player of the week....not bad.

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11-20-2012, 09:17 AM
  #831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.


Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.
Because Lupul is more proven at the NHL level and is far more likely to be an impact player now.

Prefering Kadri over Lupul would be like preferring Rielly over Letang as a trade piece.

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11-20-2012, 09:26 AM
  #832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.


Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.
i dont want him
not as a centerpiece, certainly

with a 1st and a solid prospect I could be ok with ...

but I agree. He's has a history of injuries, is a UFA to be and is coming off a career year with kessel, one of the more dynamic forwards out there. I see him as comparable or even a bit less than a guy like Booth in value, and look what we paid for him.

all this Leaf talk is so draining -- there are very few guys like leaflander who don't horribly over-value their assets, or come from a place (as we're all admittedly wont to do) of proposing homerun trades for the home side...

For me, a trade w TO will be disappointing if it doesnt include one of JVR, Gardiner, Reilly, Phaneuf or Kessel (understanding that PK is highly unlikely ...and, if you talk to your avg Leaf fan ...they're all extremely unlikely)

Gillis was reported to have been asking for the moon, and I hope stays near there ...
worse comes to worse and we hang onto Luo too long (say until next summer) what's the downside? Not getting Bozak?

I dunno ...something like Kulemin, Bozak, 1st or Lupul, 1st is prob fair ...but it sure doesn't excite...

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11-20-2012, 09:28 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because Lupul is more proven at the NHL level and is far more likely to be an impact player now.

Prefering Kadri over Lupul would be like preferring Rielly over Letang as a trade piece.


Not even close. Was Letang ever a salary dump? Ever as injury prone? As inconsistent?



My point is that if you are willing to take a chance on someone that inconsistent, despite being "NHL proven", take it on someone you can mold to be better while getting better value in the process.



I'm not the biggest Kadri fan, but I would far prefer to take a chance on him, and up the value of the rest of the package. The low side is he never makes it. The low side to Lupul is that he again becomes a salary dump. Both things aren't good. So take the chance on the guy that doesn't have the same dubious history that Lupul has.

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11-20-2012, 09:38 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You guys all know i'm not a huge Kadri fan, but watching him this season (although an early slump), he seems to be getting it. His defense, while still not stellar, is getting much better. I think we can finally see what Roberts did for him as well, much tougher to move off the puck AND is actually throwing some hits. Couple that with 14 points in 14 games and AHL player of the week....not bad.


Not bad, but then I never doubted Kadri's scoring at the AHL level. It's the one aspect that has translated very well from Jr. That said, I still think he has the same question marks he has always had: Size, Speed and Defense.



This is him as a player. These are his downside traits and I don't think they change at a significant enough level to drastically increase his value. He's naturally a skinny kid. He naturally is not a fast skater. And finally, he's not a Dzone player. I actually think he reminds a lot of Huselius. Supremely talented, but will bounce around the league due to these question marks. Ribeiro, by contrast, is still much smarter in the Dzone.



All told, my point was more to highlight projection. That if the Canucks staff project him to be a one dimensional scorer at the next level, then how is that different from what Lupul is now? At least with Kadri you can bring him along slowly and mold him more than an established player.

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11-20-2012, 09:49 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not bad, but then I never doubted Kadri's scoring at the AHL level. It's the one aspect that has translated very well from Jr. That said, I still think he has the same question marks he has always had: Size, Speed and Defense.



This is him as a player. These are his downside traits and I don't think they change at a significant enough level to drastically increase his value. He's naturally a skinny kid. He naturally is not a fast skater. And finally, he's not a Dzone player. I actually think he reminds a lot of Huselius. Supremely talented, but will bounce around the league due to these question marks. Ribeiro, by contrast, is still much smarter in the Dzone.



All told, my point was more to highlight projection. That if the Canucks staff project him to be a one dimensional scorer at the next level, then how is that different from what Lupul is now? At least with Kadri you can bring him along slowly and mold him more than an established player.
The 2 bolded can be worked on via coaching....provided he keeps his head out of his ass long enough to listen.

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11-20-2012, 09:55 AM
  #836
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.


Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.
Do not the Canucks already have a surplus of 'softer' forwards in their top six? Perhaps these two names you mention are redundant in Vancouver?

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11-20-2012, 10:02 AM
  #837
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
i

For me, a trade w TO will be disappointing if it doesnt include one of JVR, Gardiner, Reilly, Phaneuf or Kessel (understanding that PK is highly unlikely ...and, if you talk to your avg Leaf fan ...they're all extremely unlikely)
Very good. Excluding Kessel, what would the Canucks have to add to Luongo in order to get one of those names? If there is to be a defense-man coming to Vancouver, there would need to be a defense-man going back to Toronto. If it is JVR, I would expect Burke would want a Canucks' forward in return.

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11-20-2012, 10:12 AM
  #838
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
The 2 bolded can be worked on via coaching....provided he keeps his head out of his ass long enough to listen.


He's going to have to buy in of course. Which again, is yet another question mark.



For speed, he's not going to significantly improve it enough for it to become a plus asset, is what I mean. I see it as no different than the twins. They are of average speed now, while first they were considered slow. It's better, but it's not so much better so as to become a value changer.



The same thing goes for defense. It will be a lot more difficult to imprint than developing speed, as the latter is a solo focus. But again, his D may become passable at the NHL level, not a plus aspect.



In the end, he's going to live and die by his skill and his offensive IQ.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-20-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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11-20-2012, 10:21 AM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Do not the Canucks already have a surplus of 'softer' forwards in their top six? Perhaps these two names you mention are redundant in Vancouver?


Frankly, VAN should be more concerned with producing _any_ top6 talent from its pipeline, at all, than worry about aesthetics. Further, Kadri plays with edge. Not all the time, but it is there.

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11-20-2012, 10:26 AM
  #840
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Very good. Excluding Kessel, what would the Canucks have to add to Luongo in order to get one of those names? If there is to be a defense-man coming to Vancouver, there would need to be a defense-man going back to Toronto. If it is JVR, I would expect Burke would want a Canucks' forward in return.
i dunno
even JVR, who I like and could be seen as most realistic ...is a LW (dont know if he can play right.)

Gardiner I suppose is most realistic -- they can't afford to give up Phaneuf (not sure we'd want him) and they do have Reilly in the wings

maybe something like

Lupul, Gardiner
for
Luongo, Raymond, Alberts

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11-20-2012, 10:27 AM
  #841
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Kadri's skating looks pretty good to me. Agile and smooth. He certainly isn't slow, seems to excelerate fairly well, but he coasts a lot, so maybe some pay more attention to that?

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11-20-2012, 10:48 AM
  #842
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i dunno
even JVR, who I like and could be seen as most realistic ...is a LW (dont know if he can play right.)

Gardiner I suppose is most realistic -- they can't afford to give up Phaneuf (not sure we'd want him) and they do have Reilly in the wings

maybe something like

Lupul, Gardiner
for
Luongo, Raymond, Alberts
Burke is building around young D, Gardiner won't move.

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11-20-2012, 10:50 AM
  #843
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Burke is building around young D, Gardiner won't move.
i know, and we've discussed before
but when you think of what do the canucks need, and what to the leafs have more than one of, you get back to young stud Dmen ...ie Reilly & Gardiner

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11-20-2012, 10:54 AM
  #844
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
Kadri's skating looks pretty good to me. Agile and smooth. He certainly isn't slow, seems to excelerate fairly well, but he coasts a lot, so maybe some pay more attention to that?
Exact same knock i have on Kessel...love the guy, but he skates like a scared rabbit on offense and coasts back.

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11-20-2012, 10:56 AM
  #845
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
Kadri's skating looks pretty good to me. Agile and smooth. He certainly isn't slow, seems to excelerate fairly well, but he coasts a lot, so maybe some pay more attention to that?


I think he's a shade below average. With training, he should get to average NHL calibre. He doesn't keep his feet moving and he doesn't have a quick acceleration. His speed will not allow him to separate himself from checks, his guile will.



It's not easy to improve skating. Some prospects fail for this reason alone. They never improve. We can't take something the Sedins have done, which is improve incrementally every year, and apply it to all prospects. This is not the norm.

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11-20-2012, 10:58 AM
  #846
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i know, and we've discussed before
but when you think of what do the canucks need, and what to the leafs have more than one of, you get back to young stud Dmen ...ie Reilly & Gardiner
I get the desire/need, but those 2 guys are off the table. As much as i'd like Luongo, even i prefer hanging on to those 2.

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11-20-2012, 11:03 AM
  #847
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I get the desire/need, but those 2 guys are off the table. As much as i'd like Luongo, even i prefer hanging on to those 2.
Then keep em and be happy with Swiss cheese quality goaltending.

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11-20-2012, 11:07 AM
  #848
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Then keep em and be happy with Swiss cheese quality goaltending.
Thank you. I'm sure we can upgrade in goal (not to the point of Luongo) and hang on to Gardiner/Reilly.

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11-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #849
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Not even close. Was Letang ever a salary dump? Ever as injury prone? As inconsistent?



My point is that if you are willing to take a chance on someone that inconsistent, despite being "NHL proven", take it on someone you can mold to be better while getting better value in the process.



I'm not the biggest Kadri fan, but I would far prefer to take a chance on him, and up the value of the rest of the package. The low side is he never makes it. The low side to Lupul is that he again becomes a salary dump. Both things aren't good. So take the chance on the guy that doesn't have the same dubious history that Lupul has.
And Rielly is far more highly touted as a prospect than Kadri. And yes, Letang just recently had an injury that wiped out most of his season.

Anyways, the main point is that it would be unrealistic to assume Kadri would get more than, say, 40 points in his first full season, and it would be unrealistic to assume Lupul gets less than 40 points.

Kadri is more valuable to a team undergoing a youth movement, while Lupul is more valuable to a team looking to contend now.

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11-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #850
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Unfortunately that has always been Burke's single weakness or achilles heel throughout his GM career (he inherited a Conn Smyth winning goalie who was still in his prime at the time with the Ducks) - goaltending.

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