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Luongo Thread: Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (Mod Warning in OP)

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I get the desire/need, but those 2 guys are off the table. As much as i'd like Luongo, even i prefer hanging on to those 2.
It's a dilemma. Without the #1 goalie those young 'd' will struggle, and appear to not be developing as expected.

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11-20-2012, 03:20 PM
  #877
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It's also smart by Gillis. By going into the season with both starters, he gets to better understand where his position of needs actually are. Right now it's 3C and 2RW. But if one of Schroeder/Kassian step up, scratch that need off the list. If both do, then you can go for an even more futures centric package. If neither one does, then you need to address both positions, if you can, by dealing Lu. But again, Lupul isn't a 3C or 2RW so it really doesn't matter - he doesn't fit... Actually, oddly enough, Kadri can play C or RW.
Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.

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11-20-2012, 03:25 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.
Wrong. The Canucks greatest need is another top 6 forward. Our playoff offense has been a complete embarassment and that's an area that we need to address. The Canucks have 3 very solid defense pairings that, while a franchise defenseman would be nice, it isn't an absolute necessity.

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11-20-2012, 03:27 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.
As much as I like Kesler and Burrows, they are not top end forwards, most of the teams choke when it matters the most, scoring 8 goals in 7 games is not going to beat Boston

However, i do agree we need a top end defenseman more than we need a top end forward, a lot of times the opponent can skate into our zone pretty much with little resistance from our defense, it needs to be addressed.

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11-20-2012, 03:29 PM
  #880
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As much as I like Kesler and Burrows, they are not top end forwards, most of the teams choke when it matters the most, scoring 8 goals in 7 games is not going to beat Boston

However, i do agree we need a top end defenseman more than we need a top end forward, a lot of times the opponent can skate into our zone pretty much with little resistance from our defense, it needs to be addressed.
A top end defenseman (who stays healthy) means we lose in the playoffs by a smaller margin perhaps, but we still lose. Without offense this team isn't going to win, and our forwards have proven they aren't good enough in the playoffs.

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11-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #881
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A top end defenseman (who stays healthy) means we lose in the playoffs by a smaller margin perhaps, but we still lose. Without offense this team isn't going to win, and our forwards have proven they aren't good enough in the playoffs.
That make sense, but if we add a top end defenseman that could play in the PP like Ehrhoff did for us, then in theory it should helped the Sedins on their offense.


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11-20-2012, 04:21 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Vancouver_2010 View Post
That make sense, but if we add a top end defenseman that could play in the PP like Rhrhoff did for us, then in theory it should helped the Sedins on their offense.
Even when we had Ehrhoff (2011 playoffs) our offense was bad. It wasn't just the Boston series (although I don't think you could get worse than that pathetic showing). The Chicago and Nashville series were bad too.

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11-20-2012, 04:37 PM
  #883
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Oh christ. Even by comparison to the subject of this thread, the subject of this derailment is so. ****ing. overdone.

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11-20-2012, 04:47 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Oh christ. Even by comparison to the subject of this thread, the subject of this derailment is so. ****ing. overdone.
What can you do in a lockout? This trade could have and should have been made 2 months ago if not for the lockout.

I don't mind the direction it has gone anyway. At least there are no more opposing fans coming in and low-balling us.

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11-20-2012, 04:49 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Even when we had Ehrhoff (2011 playoffs) our offense was bad. It wasn't just the Boston series (although I don't think you could get worse than that pathetic showing). The Chicago and Nashville series were bad too.
That is it is, I don't think you deny the fact that the Sedins had their two best offensive seasons working with Ehrhoff. It's up to you how you attribute that fact though. I think it's a fairly positive correlation.

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11-20-2012, 04:52 PM
  #886
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Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.
Totally wrong.

Hamhuis and Bieksa are one of the top 5 shutdown pairs in the league.

They need diversified offense, as evidenced by scoring what 14 goals in our last 12 post season games.

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11-20-2012, 04:58 PM
  #887
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That is it is, I don't think you deny the fact that the Sedins had their two best offensive seasons working with Ehrhoff. It's up to you how you attribute that fact though. I think it's a fairly positive correlation.
The whole point is, it shouldn't be ALL ABOUT the Sedins.

The addition of a legit scoring threat to play on a different line makes us better.

People can go on and on about Ehrhoff and his impact with the Twins, my biggest argument against adding an offensive defensman is to look at the 3 worst minus players on our cup run in 2011 - Henrik (-11), Daniel (-9) and you guessed it Ehrhoff (-13).

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11-20-2012, 05:06 PM
  #888
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Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.
No they don't...at all. What you want is for us the have the best defense in the league, and that isn't necessary.

We already have four top 4 d-men (and if Ballard can miraculously return to his old form, then we have 5). We don't have six top 6 forwards.
We had a huge problem scoring in the playoffs last season, and it was because we didn't have enough consistent top 6 forwards.

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11-20-2012, 05:08 PM
  #889
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How many teams were offering this "established C/RW/RD" in exchange for a rookie getting sheltered minutes? Other teams also intend to compete now, so the only thing that makes sense in this scenario would be a potential for potential swap. Unless you know of any offers for Hodgson that included this established player that Gillis turned down.


Oh I see, so now Hodgson would not have garnered even a marginal top6 addition? Lol. Do you realize how foolish this sounds? You're telling me Hodgson could not have garnered a Kostitsyn or a Setoguchi. Or even Booth when he was on table? You've lost the plot.



The only reason he gets a high-end prospect like Kassian is because he has high enough value to do so.



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Nothing, but I think he gives us a better chance than the no D; inconsistent LWer Kadri who has never played a full season in the NHL before.


I know it's difficult for you to adjust to this, but this is not a straight across comparison. Of course Lupul is likely better next year, but is he better than Kadri + extra value long-term? No, he most certainly is not.





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So how many RWers with size, skill, and a mean streak were on the market for Hodgson? Presumably none, which is why he traded for a player who might potentially be that,

If Gillis was offered Lucic instead of Kassian, you think he would still take Kassian over him?


As per your comments above, you have completely missed the point. You were called on saying _any_ prospect is not favoured over established talent for a contending team. This is clearly wrong, and moving the goal posts doesn't change that, sorry.





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You see his inexperience as a plus, while I see it as a detriment. Both Kadri and Lupul have risks, the difference is that even if both meet their potential, Lupul will be contributing now to help win a cup, while Kadri will still take several years before hitting his prime, by which time the Sedins, Bieksa, and Hamhuis will all likely be past their prime.


Do you think the difference in Lupul to Kadri++ is the difference in a cup/no cup? Do you actually believe Lupul alone makes enough impact on this roster to have them lift the cup this year? I'm sure his defensive flybyes will endear him to AV real quick. That's playoff winning hockey right there. At least with Kadri you have time to even _hope_ he gets it. Lupul is a lost cause for this I'm afraid. Inexperience is not a detriment in the face of a poor known quantity.






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It's still better than Kadri, who's never played RW before in his life.


He's played RW, C and LW. Where are you getting that he has never played his off-wing in his life? I watch the marlies this year, 2 games, and he was on the right side of Colborne. There should be some YT vids of him on his off wing as well. Where are you even getting this from?



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But why not 10 2nds? if the value is there and there are no obvious holes our roster(in your opinion), we should take it?


Why? Did I advocate taking poorer futures over good futures? Nope. I've argued taking a prospect (future) over a poor established talent. Get your arguments right VKW, otherwise you're just arguing against yourself.


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Yes, but it makes no sense preferring to pass up on a player for a prospect who projects similarly to that player. As I said before, one wouldn't pass up on Lucic for the RW spot in favour of Kassian. Similarly, you don't pass up on Lupul in favour of Kadri.

It makes absolute sense when you don't think much of the established NHLer in your scenario. One that's still a LW by the way.



Quote:
Kadri plays C or LW. And given his defensive defieciencies I don't think 3C would be the best place for him. He'd certainly be workable in our system somehow, but Lupul makes far more sense for us to target.


Again, Lupul plays LW, how does he make sense at all? And Kadri has played LW.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-20-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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11-20-2012, 05:51 PM
  #890
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The whole point is, it shouldn't be ALL ABOUT the Sedins.

The addition of a legit scoring threat to play on a different line makes us better.

People can go on and on about Ehrhoff and his impact with the Twins, my biggest argument against adding an offensive defensman is to look at the 3 worst minus players on our cup run in 2011 - Henrik (-11), Daniel (-9) and you guessed it Ehrhoff (-13).
No doubt our top offensive players were eaten alive in the Finals.

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11-20-2012, 06:01 PM
  #891
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No doubt our top offensive players were eaten alive in the Finals.
You betcha, if you look at the entire team - the Sedin's scored, Kesler and Burrows scored, but the gap between their production and the next best forwards production in those playoffs was 10 point.

So we had 4 guys around 20 points in 25 games, then the next best forwards were around 9 or 10....

Shows me we greatly struggled with offensive/scoring depth.

Defense was fine....bieksa, ehrhoff and edler scored more than the remaining forwards.


Last edited by arsmaster: 11-20-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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11-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #892
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Oh I see, so now Hodgson would not have garnered even a marginal top6 addition? Lol. Do you realize how foolish this sounds? You're telling me Hodgson could not have garnered a Kostitsyn or a Setoguchi. Or even Booth when he was on table? You've lost the plot.


The only reason he gets a high-end prospect like Kassian is because he has high enough value to do so.


I know it's difficult for you to adjust to this, but this is not a straight across comparison. Of course Lupul is likely better next year, but is he better than Kadri + extra value long-term? No, he most certainly is not.


As per your comments above, you have completely missed the point. You were called on saying _any_ prospect is not favoured over established talent for a contending team. This is clearly wrong, and moving the goal posts doesn't change that, sorry.


Do you think the difference in Lupul to Kadri++ is the difference in a cup/no cup? Do you actually believe Lupul alone makes enough impact on this roster to have them lift the cup this year? I'm sure his defensive flybyes will endear him to AV real quick. That's playoff winning hockey right there. At least with Kadri you have time to even _hope_ he gets it. Lupul is a lost cause for this I'm afraid. Inexperience is not a detriment in the face of a poor known quantity.
I never said any established player > any prospect. Not once. All I said is that I don't think Kadri's upside is any higher than Lupul's upside. Kadri has absolutely nothing on Lupul apart from "inexperience" that may help us teach him a defensive game.


All I said was that since Kadri's upside is no higher than Lupul's actual calibre right now, and therefore it makes no sense for a contending team to target a prospect who may develop into a player we could use instead of an actual player we could use.

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He's played RW, C and LW. Where are you getting that he has never played his off-wing in his life? I watch the marlies this year, 2 games, and he was on the right side of Colborne. There should be some YT vids of him on his off wing as well. Where are you even getting this from?
Everytime I've seen his position listed it's been as C/LW, such as herehttp://games.espn.go.com/fhl/tools/p...s?proTeamId=21

or herehttp://leafs4life.net/leaf_prospects.html

etc.

Quote:
Why? Did I advocate taking poorer futures over good futures? Nope. I've argued taking a prospect (future) over a poor established talent. Get your arguments right VKW, otherwise you're just arguing against yourself.
You said we had no more holes on our roster that needed filling, so we may as well get as much value as possible. It shouldn't matter how well the value fits our needs, as long as it's there, right?

Quote:
It makes absolute sense when you don't think much of the established NHLer in your scenario. One that's still a LW by the way.
I do like Kadri. You can tell by the fact that I think his upside is a PPG forward with a questionable defensive game. That doesn't mean he's a lock to reach it anytime soon, if ever.


Quote:
Again, Lupul plays LW, how does he make sense at all? And Kadri has played LW.
I'm assuming you meant Kadri plays RW, although I have never seen that, but Lupul has played RW at the NHL level to. I don't see any advantage Kadri has at RW over Lupul.

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11-20-2012, 06:40 PM
  #893
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From Elliotte Friedman:
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19. I think the only members of the Canucks organization who haven't scouted the Toronto Marlies are the Odds.
Link

From Steve Simmons:
Quote:
The Vancouver Canucks are spending so much time scouting the Toronto Marlies they should get a seat on the team bus: Can you say Roberto Luongo post-lockout?
Link

Every Marlies game, someone on twitter is talking about Canucks scouts in attendance. I wonder if they are just scouting the Marlies, or if they are attending other interested parties farm teams? I hope it's more than the Marlies, that would be pretty telling if they're just scouting 1 team.

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11-20-2012, 06:56 PM
  #894
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he's been the most reasonabe leaf fan by a mile, a relative rarity ...let's not drive him over the edge...

i still like a JVR-based deal (assuming he can play RW?)
and wouldnt hate Lupul+ assuming the + is good
Even though us Canucks fans may not value Lupul to what Leafs fans do, doesn't mean we should expect ++ to come with Lupul. I want good value for Luongo, but Toronto's best players are the ones we're trying to acquire here. It makes no sense for them to pull off that type of deal (Lupul AND Gardiner) for Luongo. It really doesn't make them any better, and quite possibly worse.

Kessel loses his partner in crime, and they lose one of their top defensemen, who is still young yet. Like I said, even though we may not value Lupul highly, Leafs fans do. Expecting to get Lupul and Gardiner/Reilly just quite frankly is never going to happen.

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11-20-2012, 06:58 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
From Elliotte Friedman:
Link

From Steve Simmons:
Link

Every Marlies game, someone on twitter is talking about Canucks scouts in attendance. I wonder if they are just scouting the Marlies, or if they are attending other interested parties farm teams? I hope it's more than the Marlies, that would be pretty telling if they're just scouting 1 team.
Well Gardiner looks pretty good down there, and the toronto media is hyping the hell out of Morgan Rielly.

Maybe with the rise of Rielly, Gardiner is now available.

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11-20-2012, 07:03 PM
  #896
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Wrong. The Canucks have a greater need for a defenese-man who can play 25+ minutes every game, and play them at a high level against the other teams' best players. They already have plenty of top end forwards.
Actually, we really don't. There's a reason we spread the icetime somewhat evenly (don't really want to look up defense icetime right now) and that's because we trust our top four defense pairings. We absolutely don't need a big minute muncher, and quite frankly, I think we have guys that can eat big minutes as is. One defensemen that logs 25+ minutes really doesn't mean much to me, especially when one defensemen doesn't make a defense pairing.

Our top four defense is set, and has been since we signed Garrison. We are in more of a desperate need of a 2nd line winger. We don't have plenty of top end forwards; Sedin, Sedin, Kesler and maybe Burrows but I think that's stretching the definition of "top end players" IMO.

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11-20-2012, 07:13 PM
  #897
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Well Gardiner looks pretty good down there, and the toronto media is hyping the hell out of Morgan Rielly.

Maybe with the rise of Rielly, Gardiner is now available.

I prefer them scouting the Rampage and Uni of Minnesota

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11-20-2012, 07:19 PM
  #898
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I prefer them scouting the Rampage and Uni of Minnesota
I'm sure we all do, but usually where there is smoke, there is fire....I don't see a deal getting done with Florida, because honestly they don't have the need to pay the price.

Toronto has the need.

Gardiner is the guy they want, he was in the first rumour with TO, I don't know where you fit him in or if he's a guy you flip, but that has to be Gillis' primary target if he's thinking about dealing Lu to the Leafs.

I might actually start liking the Leafs if Lu went there, which is the biggest reason I don't want to see him go there.

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11-20-2012, 08:01 PM
  #899
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Back to the TO talk: I'm curious why people even want Lupul? He's a no defense LWer that has ranged from PPG forward to salary dump. I don't understand it?


Contrast this with Kadri. There are some comparing him to Filatov and others that see he could be a Lupul not too far into the future: A no defense LW/RW that should be able to put up top6 numbers.


Why not take the chance on the latter, increasing the remaining parts of the package because Kadri is unproven, than going with the inconsistent, defensively suspect, injury prone Lupul?... You don't have to be a Kadri fan to consider it.
Because the Canucks are looking to bolster their top 6 and are trying to win the Stanley cup. Lupul gets the team closer to doing that than Kadri does.

Kadri just doesn't look like he's going to be ready to play a meaningful role in the NHL over the next couple years and the Canucks greatest chance to win a cup likely comes in that timeframe.

Same reason you take a Marcel Goc over a Mattias/Shore from the Panthers...

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11-20-2012, 08:03 PM
  #900
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I'm sure we all do, but usually where there is smoke, there is fire....I don't see a deal getting done with Florida, because honestly they don't have the need to pay the price.

Toronto has the need.

Gardiner is the guy they want, he was in the first rumour with TO, I don't know where you fit him in or if he's a guy you flip, but that has to be Gillis' primary target if he's thinking about dealing Lu to the Leafs.

I might actually start liking the Leafs if Lu went there, which is the biggest reason I don't want to see him go there.
Teams don't always make trades/acquisitions based on need. Did NYR really 'need' Nash? There were 19 other teams in the league who scored fewer goals than NYR last season. You'd think those teams would have a greater need for his services.

For whatever reason, Dreger says Florida is the frontrunner for Lu. Not sure if he's out to lunch or has an agenda. It's just strange to hear that bit of info.

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